Trying To Work This Out - Outer Darkness

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Bible Highlighter

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No offense, and I say this with love, but generally, adherents of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) like to make up stuff in the Bible that is not really there. So it's not surprising that they would say that outer darkness is the same as the Lake of Fire or the place of torments. Scripture makes no connection about how outer darkness is tied to being the same thing as the Lake of Fire or the place of torments. None whatsoever. But I can understand why they would say this. They would invent something like this because it contradicts their belief in OSAS. They like to say that the believer who falls away was never born again, to begin with. So "outer darkness" (A place for the unfaithful believer) contradicts their theology, so they must re-write this truth in Scripture to fit their narrative.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Please understand that I do believe in hell or the place of torments (that the rich man went to). Hell is a very real and literal place where the wicked will be temporarily punished before the Judgment and the time of when they are cast into the Lake of Fire. Outer darkness is ANOTHER literal place of torment but it is for the unfaithful believer (or unprofitable servant). Some unbelievers can do certain things so bad that they can their part or portion with unbelievers (i.e. meaning they can end up in hades or hell instead of outer darkness). Both hades and outer darkness are places of temporary punishment before the final Judgment and final punishment (Which is immediate or eventual destruction in the Lake of Fire).
 

Behold

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Hell is a very real and literal place where the wicked will be temporarily punished

Wrong.

Hell is "created for the devil and His angels".

Who goes there?

The UNBELIEVERS.

Why?

Because God's Wrath against the Unpardonable Sin of Unbelief has an end result.

= You go to Hell., and you dont get out, as there is no 2nd Chance to Believe in Jesus, found in Hell.
You cant be "Born again" in Hell. and you can't go to Heaven, unless you are "born again".
-

""Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.""

New Living Translation
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.”

English Standard Version
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

King James Bible
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

New King James Version
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
 

Bible Highlighter

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To all:

Hell is a place created for the devil and his angels. Nowhere did I deny such a truth. But hell is a temporary place because 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Conditional Immortality Verses on the Destruction of the Devil & Death:


The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:


A. Destruction of the Devil:


Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

Ezekiel 28:12-18

12 “...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”​

B. Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

1 Corinthians 15:26

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

Now, stop and think for a moment. Again, if the last enemy to be DESTROYED is “death,” then logic dictates that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, too. This means that wicked mankind, and the devil and his minions will also be destroyed, as well. For they are also God’s enemies!
 

Behold

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To all:

Hell is a place created for the devil and his angels. Nowhere did I deny such a truth. But hell is a temporary place because 1 Corinthians 15:26 says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Hell is not death.
Being there proves the Christ Rejector "remains" under Gods Wrath... John 3:36
Hell is a place, exactly as Heaven is a place.

There are no born again in Hell, and you can't be born again in Hell.
You can't go to heaven unless you are born again.

The devil teaches that Hell is not there, or that its not torment, or its, temporary.
The devil is a liar... and the Father of it.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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To all:

Some folks are the masters at misunderstanding things that you write, and say things that are untrue that I never claimed. Nowhere did I say that hades or the place of torments is death. Hades or the place of torments that the rich man went to is a real place and the wicked are tormented there.

Now, the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. This is an actual death because it is related to the first death of our physical body upon the Earth. To call the Second Death as…. “living for eternity while one is tortured in flames” is not a consistent parallel with the first death. The first death is literal, and then the second death is a metaphor? That doesn’t sound consistent. Yet, this is what ECT Proponents want us to believe. Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire. Death (Which is the last enemy) is said to be destroyed in 1 Corinthians 15:26. the inhabitants in hell are also enemies of God. So obviously they will be destroyed, too. Paul says that this punishment is called “everlasting destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9. Something that is “destroyed” is… no more.
 
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Behold

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Now, the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. This is an actual death

Its not death, its the 2nd Death.

Its this.
-
The "2nd death" is simply the eternal continuation of the 1st Death found in Adam.

In other words.,, , "In Adam we all die" and in "Christ we are all made alive".

The 1st Adam brought sin and death to all mankind, and the 2nd Adam ( JESUS ) brings the offer of Eternal Life to all mankind, which ends "death".

Before Adam fell or "died", He was in Spiritual Union with God. When He "fell" , when he rebelled.... he lost spiritual union with God, that is defined as "death"...... so that is a loss of God's Eternal life that Adam had before he fell from it, or "died".

So, that is the 1st Death.....its spiritual separation from God.

= When a person is not born again...

Jesus said "you must be born again"< or you remain "in Adam", in "death".... that is to be spiritually separated from God.

To leave that "death" the 1st, is to be born again...... as then you have regained Spiritual Union with God, = Eternal LIFE that is found "in Christ".... that is the escape, by Spiritual BIRTH = FROM 1st Adam ""Death."""


The 2nd Death, is to remain in 1st Death, forever...after you literally die.
Literally... 2nd Death means, that you died on earth spiritually separated from God, never born again, in that First Death, and then you hit eternity. And in eternity there is no 2nd chance to be saved, to be born again OUT of 1st Death.
So, to now everlastingly remain in that spiritual separation from God, is the "2nd Death"....or a eternal spiritual separation from God.

That is the "2nd Death".

Where you will exist like that is ....>Hell, followed by the Lake of Fire.

How do you escape that eternal destiny that is originally designed "for the Devil and His angels"???

Jesus said..."you must be born again".......as that spiritual birth delivers you from "1st Adam death",....= restoring you back to Spiritual Union with God, which is... = Eternal Life "in Christ".
 

Bible Highlighter

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To all:

Again a recent poster said something that I did not say. I said the Lake of Fire is the Second Death, and they turned around and somehow said that is not what I was saying. Please pay no heed to people like this, my friends. When some people either make up stuff that contradicts what you said or they do not know how to read properly what you wrote, it is time to move on from their criticisms and pay them no mind to their words whatsoever. I can understand an occasional misunderstanding, but to do so in almost every post is problematic at best, and we can only pray for them (Hoping that the love of Christ will shine unto them).
 

Behold

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To all:

Again a recent poster said something that I did not say. I said the Lake of Fire is the Second Death,


Read more carefully.

You said this, Bible Highlighter

""""""Now, the Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. This is an actual DEATH".


And i then responded to your misunderstanding. "Death".
 

Bible Highlighter

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The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down.
Outer darkness appears to exist between the Marriage of the Lamb, and the End of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
Outer darkness appears to be for the unfaithful believer and it is a place of outer darkness and not a place of flames like the rich man went to in Luke 16:19-31.

In Matthew 22:1-12: I see “outer darkness” as being a place for certain unfaithful believers who attend the the Marriage of the Lamb (Which is sometime before Christ’s 2nd Coming). I see the “Caught Up” event (or Rapture like event) in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 as a precursor or call to the Marriage. These unfaithful believers could be those who were once dead and taken up to Heaven out of Abraham’s bosom in the Rapture so as to be in attendance at the wedding; But seeing that they have no wedding garment on because they did not live righteously by the Spirit in their lifetime they are cast into outer darkness. Why? Well, they justified sin and or never overcame sin. They are believers who lived primarily for themselves and their own pleasure and not for God.

I see “outer darkness“ as a dark place of punishment for unfaithful believers which is mentioned as existing during some kind of ruling by our Lord Jesus Christ. This ruling appears to happen right before the Millennial Kingdom starts (Matthew 25:14-30).

I see “outer darkness” as a place for unfaithful believers and it also appears to exist during and or after the Millennial Kingdom in Matthew 8:11-12. Remember, the Millennial Kingdom is marked with people having sinned and dying early. Also, there will be a war at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, as well (Suggesting unfaithful believers). For if Christ reigns for 1,000 years, everyone will be a believer.

Although Luke 13:28 does not mention the ”outer darkness” it appears to align with Matthew 8.

After the 1,000 year reign of Christ, there will be a Judgment, and all of the wicked (including unfaithful servants or unfaithful believers) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Now, in the beginning of Matthew 25 with the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14-30), we read about how the unprofitable servant (unprofitable believer) will be cast into outer darkness before the Millenial reign. Yet, at the end of Matthew 25 in the Parable of the Sheep in Goats (Matthew 25:15-46), we read about the Final Judgment on the New Earth (or the one and only official Judgment) of the sheep being separated from the goats and the goats being cast into the fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire to be destroyed).

But I do not see outer darkness existing after the Judgment (Which takes place on the New Earth after the old Earth passes away).
Outer darkness appears to be attached with the first Earth that we currently are on, and it is not connected with the New Earth that comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Side Note:

The Parable of the Foolish Virgins in Matthew 25 appears to be about those who missed out on the “Caught Up” event while they were alive. They did not look for the Lord Jesus to come at any moment and neither did they live faithful for Him. So when the Call to the Marriage came (i.e. the “Caught Up” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), they missed out on it. In essence, they were left behind due to their unbelief and unfaithfulness. But seeing they are still alive, they have a chance to repent and turn their life around. However, they are going to face a really hard time, though.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.

Isaiah 8 - To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn. They will pass through the land dejected and hungry, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will become enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Mathew 8-Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mathew 22 - Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have some difficulty with this one too, because I don’t see the called but not chosen as wicked. I see them as the righteous. However, if you don’t ever get to chosen and IN Him, I think you can at least be clothed in humility and counted among the righteous. Don’t know, have some confusion here…but this parable seems to agree that the man was not clothed in humility - Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.


I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.
The verse you quoted for 2 Peter 2 is actually Jude 1:13. But thank you for bringing up these verses. It did help me in my study on this topic involving the place of outer darkness.

While it is not a pleasant or happy topic, it is one that does need to be discussed and meditated upon in prayer and by comparing Scripture, with Scripture.

Thank you for the study.

May God bless you.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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To all:

While it is popular amongst Christians today to propose that “outer darkness” is either hell and or the Lake of Fire, this really does not make any sense.

Some try to make outer darkness as being the same as hell or the Lake of Fire. But fire puts out light. So a place of outer darkness does not jive or connect with it also being hell or the Lake of Fire.
 

Bible Highlighter

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The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire.
It’s possible that “outer darkness” is a separate place or compartment within the realm of hell or Sheol.
Outer darkness would not be the place of torments that the rich man went to in Luke 16:19-31 (because there is light there as a result of the fire), but outer darkness could possibly be another section within hell that is completely dark or black (with the absense of any light).

In either case, if ”outer darkness” is an entirely different place outside of the place of torments or it is not in hell (Luke 16:19-31), that does not mean that unfaithful believers are not cast into the Lake of Fire at a later time. As I shown before, we see in Matthew 25:30 in the Parable of the Talents, the unprofitable servant is cast into outer dakrness. Yet, in the same chapter in Matthew 25 in the sheep and goats parable, we see that the believers who did not help the poor in this life are said to go away into everlasting punishment involving Gehenna fire (Which is the Lake of Fire). So we see a progression in this chapter of the fate of believers who choose to later become unfruitful for God.

In other words, “outer darkness” appears to be a temporary holding place of punishment exclusively for unfaithful believers which exists (According to Scripture) starting at the marriage to the Lamb, and continues all the way through the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Then after the Millennium and the Judgment happens, the unprofitable servants will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed or annihilated (Along with wicked unbelievers). Note: Satan and his minions will also be annihilated in the end, as well. On the New Earth, there will be a time where no more evil will exist anymore. It will be only God’s good ways.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.
1 Samuel 2:9 appears to be a general reference to the wicked and it is not referring to the unprofitable servants (or unfaithful believers). In the OT times (Because the Israelite fought many battles): This could be in reference to how they live on this Earth while their enemies perished.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.
The Bible has homonyms or related words within in it. Just because something sounds similar or even uses the same phrase does not mean it is always referring to the exact same thing. The word “repent” does not always have the same meaning. ”Sons of God’ can refer to angels in the BIble, and it can also refer to believers. The context determines their use.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
Jude 1:13 is a verse that is missed by many on this study or topic. This again shows that these are believers who were once born again and yet they later became dead spiritually (Whereby their fate is outer darkness). These Christians feed themselves and go even unnoticed amongst the faithful believers.

Jude 1:12-13
12 ”These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”

Notice in verse 12, it says they are…

#1. Twice dead.
#2. Plucked up by the roots.

They are twice dead because they were dead spiritually a first time before coming to Christ and being born again, and then they later in their walk with God died spiritually a second time due to them being unfaithful. It says that they feed themselves without fear. Sounds like Christianity today. They don’t fear God. They believe they can sin and still be saved on some level or they sing the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) song (Which leads a person to treat His grace as a license for immorality on some level). Salvation is not conditional in their view. They see it in terms of once you are born again, then you need not ever worry about how you live because God will just force you to be a certain way.

They are “plucked up by the roots.” This points back to the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13, and Luke 8. The sower is the Son of Man (Jesus) according to another parable in Matthew 13. Luke 8 says the seed is the Word of God (i.e., the Communicated Word - like Scripture). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So these unfaithful believers once had root in God’s Word in the beginning when they first started out on the milk of the Word, but they did not move on to the meat of the Word and they became “plucked up by the roots.” We know that those in the parable of the sower who fell away and did not produce fruit shows that they simply believed only for a while. Meaning, they did not continue to believe God their whole life. They started out good (like King Saul), but then they later fell away from God due to their refusal to hear God’s words that they did not like to hear. This again is the predicament of Christianity today. They like the message of God’s grace, but then when it comes to the call of Sanctification in living holy by the Spirit as a part of God’s plan of salvation, they turn their noises up at it. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Galatians 6:8-9.


Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.
This is Job 18:18. It appears again, like 1 Samuel 2:9, to be in reference to the wicked in general (See Job 18:5), and not in reference to servants of God who are unproftiable (i.e., believers who are unprofitable). In this verse, it appears to show that the wicked are simply perishing physically from this world. Again, in the OT times: God’s people fought battles against their enemies, and won the battle if they had faith and trust in God.

I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.
In the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18:21-35: It is not said that the the unforgiving servant would go free after he paid all his debt. It merely says that he would be delivered from the tormentors (which most likely would be demons) until all the debt that was due unto Him (the LORD) was paid. So I get the impression that the demons may stop tormenting the unforgiving servant in outer darkness until the debt to the LORD is satisfied. It does not mean they will go free from outer darkness or be saved and enter the Kingdom later. Outer darkness is not a purgatory. Purgatory is not biblical. Remember, in Matthew 6:15, it says “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” You cannot be unforgiven and yet also saved or have eternal life. Jesus gives us these kinds of warnings because they actually matter to us as believers. Salvation is conditional and it is not always a one time event for all people.
 
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MatthewG

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A life in the dark without God nearby, but given a resurrected body condemned able to roam outside the kingdom.


Lake of fire to find the truth in Christ in the afterlife?

If that fire is in front of the Lamb and his angels…


Who 2 say.

God only one can renew the willingly mind and heart.
 

MatthewG

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Satan got to go in and out of heaven, I don’t think he is around anymore, and he did bad.

Strange concepts but either way that is what John ended up, talking about in revelation 21-22, those in and those out of the kingdom.
 

Behold

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It’s possible that “outer darkness”

You guess a lot of theology.
Not a good idea, but then if you didnt, you'd have nothing to post., Bible Highlighter

Here is the reality.

"Outer Darkness" is where those who are forever in 2nd death, exist, after they die.

Its not a place where they forgot to put in new light bulbs.

Its symbolic for being eternally separated from God who "exists in Light", and separated from Jesus who is the "Light of the world".

The born again are "children of the Light".

The never born again are Children of the devil who have spiritual darkness as their Light, and 2nd Death is their eternal life, as "outer darkness".
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The outer darkness appears to still exist AFTER death is done away with though.
What verse or passage leads you to this conclusion? I don’t see that. Outer darkness will not exist after death. I see “death“ being conquered as being the last enemy of God (See: 1 Corinthians 15:26). Outer darkness would be a place of punishment for unfaithful believers (Who are enemies of God). Death will happen to those who are finally cast into the Lake of Fire. But the same ending fate for all who are unfaithful to God is the same.

Believers who are not even looking for their LORD will be cut asunder and appointed with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

This is why Post Trib and Preterism does not make any sense to me. They are not looking for their LORD.
So seeing they are not looking for their LORD, they will have their portion with the unbelievers in being left behind on this Earth (while the saints have been ”Caught Up” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Granted, we do look through a glass darkly.

1 Corinthians 13:12
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”

But I think God has given us what we needed to know and we should trust on what limited knowledge (According to His Word) He has deemed acceptable for us to have. So I will trust in His Word in what it says plainly. However, many today make assumptions that goes beyond the text (of which I see happening among many today). They will say that outer darkness is hell or the Lake of Fire when the Bible does not teach such a thing. There is no verse or passage that makes that connection. I also must ask you why you think “outer darkness” exists after “death.” What verse or passage leads you to that conclusion? I did not see any Bible citation for that statement.

In either case, may God bless you (even if we do not agree on this topic fully).
 
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