TULIP an open discussion

[setst777]

You don’t need to read a Bible for God to draw you to Jesus...the Bible doesn’t save you....it’s God’s Spirit that saves..when he births our spirit into His..” Spirit gives birth to spirit.

If the Bible were not necessary to come to Christ, or for Christians in their walk, then the Eternal God would not have commanded it to be put into writing:

Romans 16:25-27 (ENIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (ENIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

We do not come to faith in Christ Jesus accept by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

Romans 10:14-21 (NIV)
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent?
As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

We are Born Again...by the Living word of God..who is a Living supernatural Spirit?

the “ Living “,word of God....we are are Born Again ....as the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children....God’s word is Alive in Spirit, is it not?

The Living Word of God is Lord Jesus who, before the incarnation, created all things:

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[Ritajanice]

If the Bible were not necessary, then the Eternal God would not have commanded it to be put into writing:

God is Spirit....His word is spoken in Spirit and truth.
I didn’t say the Bible isn’t necessary, we learn ,grow and mature in the Spirit, by reading it,but, we must understand it in the Spirit.

The Spiritual rebirth is a Living rebirth...it’s not something that can happen in the intellect , it happens in our spirit..therefore as God word says, we become Born Again by His Living word...not his written word...big difference.

John 6:63​

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New King James Version​

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63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 16:25-27 (ENIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

1 Corinthians 4:6 (ENIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We do not come to faith in Christ Jesus accept by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

Not true...we become Born Again as per Gods word...Born Again , receiving faith is a gift from God...we must have heard of the gospel..Jesus...otherwise without the name of Jesus first and foremost there would be no rebirth..the written word does not birth you in the Spirit....only the Spirit of God can do that.

The Spirit of God is Supernatural and a Living Spirit?

Spirit gives birth to spirit?

John 6:63​

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New King James Version​

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63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 10:14-21 (NIV)
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent?
As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The Father draws us to Jesus, you believe initially because God brings us to believe in Jesus....you cannot believe in your heart, without the faith from God to believe in the Spirit....one needs the witness, indwelling their spirit permanently, that can only happen when Spirit gives birth to spirit.

The Living Word of God is Lord Jesus who, before the incarnation, created all things:

The Living word of God is His seed, the Holy Spirit..who is Alive And Active...He is everywhere...God’s Holy Spirit.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

In the beginning was the Living word of God and he spoke everything into being.

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Tell me...do you still sin?

Indeed, no one can come to the Father accept through the Son...

 

[setst777]

We are Born Again of imperishable seed...that seed is the Living Holy Spirit...who births our spirit into His?

That is what I wrote in my first message to you and you disagreed.

Here is what I wrote:

setst777 said: By faith in God through the preaching of His Word (Romans 10:15-17), obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:22), we are the Children of Promise whom the Spirit indwells (imperishable seed) as the pledge of an inheritance yet to come (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Here was your response:

Ritajanice said: I understand imperishable seed very differently to you.....
Imperishable/ incorruptible seed is the seed that is planted into our hearts by the “ Living word of God.

Do you know how he does that?

Our faith can only grow if it was planted by becoming Born Again of imperishable seed.

Meditation on God’s written word is void unless one has received the Spiritual rebirth, “ Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Except for kings, prophets, and those whom God gave special gifts, the Spirit was not yet poured out on believers until the New Covenant after Lord Jesus was glorified after rising from the dead.

John 7:38-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Yet, we see many faithful people of old who believed in God and lived by His Word. See: Hebrews 11.

The pouring out of the Spirit is for believers, and only in the New Covenant: See Acts 2.

In the Old Testament, the Spirit was with those who believed, but was not yet dwelling in them until the New Covenant in Christ.

John 14:17 KJV: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [the Spirit] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Therefore, the disciples believed in and followed Lord Jesus before ever receiving the Spirit, which began at Pentecost.

 

[Ritajanice]

That is what I wrote in my first message to you and you disagreed.

Here is what I wrote:

setst777 said: By faith in God through the preaching of His Word (Romans 10:15-17), obeying the truth (1 Peter 1:22), we are the Children of Promise whom the Spirit indwells (imperishable seed) as the pledge of an inheritance yet to come (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Here was your response:

Ritajanice said: I understand imperishable seed very differently to you.....
Imperishable/ incorruptible seed is the seed that is planted into our hearts by the “ Living word of God.

I asked you a question...do you still sin?

Except for kings, prophets, and those whom God gave special gifts, the Spirit was not yet poured out on believers until the New Lord Jesus was glorified after rising from the dead.

John 7:38-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Yet, we see many faithful people of old who believed in God and lived by His Word. See: Hebrews 11.

The pouring out of the Spirit is for believers, and only in the New Covenant: See Acts 2.

In the Old Testament, the Spirit was with those who believed, but was not yet dwelling in them until the New Covenant in Christ.

John 14:17 KJV: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [the Spirit] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Therefore, the disciples believed in and followed Lord Jesus before ever receiving the Spirit, which began at Pentecost.

We are Born Again...we aren’t in Pentecostal times.

You cannot believe in the Spirit, without the witness the Holy Spirit..who births our spirit into his...then we can believe...as we have been Born Of The Spirit.

Do you still sin? Xx

Rivers of water is the Living word of God...there is no rivers of living water running through us,without being Born Of The Spirit.

 

[setst777]

God is Spirit....His word is spoken in Spirit and truth.
I didn’t say the Bible isn’t necessary, we learn ,grow and mature in the Spirit, by reading it,but, we must understand it in the Spirit.

The Spiritual rebirth is a Living rebirth...it’s not something that can happen in the intellect , it happens in our spirit..therefore as God word says, we become Born Again by His Living word...not his written word...big difference.

I understand the importance you place on the Spirit, but when Lord Jesus preached the Gospel, he appealed to their ability to reason. The spirit of man does not work independently of the mind, for that is how we learn and grow in the Word.

The Apostles also appealed to reason when preaching the Gospel to the lost.

Acts 17:2-4 (WEB) 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

Paul also said that he has become all things to all people so that, perchance, he may save some. So, Paul was again appealing to the ability to reason, and tried to convince them by all means possible.

1 Corinthians 9:22 (WEB) To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

 

[setst777]

I asked you a question...do you still sin?



We are Born Again...we aren’t in Pentecostal times.

You cannot believe in the Spirit, without the witness the Holy Spirit..who births our spirit into his...then we can believe...as we have been Born Of The Spirit.

Do you still sin? Xx

Rivers of water is the Living word of God...there is no rivers of living water running through us,without being Born Of The Spirit.

The Spirit is always active with the Word, as I have always said. But only in the New Covenant does the Spirit indwell all true believers in Lord Jesus.

John 7:38-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

I understand the importance you place on the Spirit, but when Lord Jesus preached the Gospel, he appealed to their ability to reason. The spirit of man does not work independently of the mind, for that is how we learn and grow in the Word.

We can only grow and mature by the power of Gods Spirit, ..our spirit is connected to God via his Spirit ,when Spirit gives birth to spirit

Our spirit communicates with the Holy Spirit, then it’s relayed to our minds......we learn and grow by the Spirit, you don’t know God without His Spirit ....that’s why we need to be Born Again.

The Apostles also appealed to reason when preaching the Gospel to the lost.

Acts 17:2-4 (WEB) 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

Paul also said that he has become all things to all people so that, perchance, he may save some. So, Paul was again appealing to the ability to reason, and tried to convince them by all means possible.

1 Corinthians 9:22 (WEB) To the weak I became as weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.

No idea what you are trying to say here.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Spirit is always active with the Word, as I have always said. But only in the New Covenant does the Spirit indwell all true believers in Lord Jesus.

The Spirit is always Active with the word?

Can you please answer my question, do you still sin?..yes or no, that’s all it takes?

John 7:38-39
38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.
Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 16:7
7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

We can only believe in the Spirit of God, once we have become Born Again...

There is no belief in anyone , without His Spirit...only human belief...

short commentary.

Spiritual birth (as its name implies) is the birth that happens with the help of the Holy Spirit and in the Spirit. It is the process by which one is born of God's Spirit from above, not from this earthly realm. 3. Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again,[a]you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”


Do you still sin?..

 

[setst777]

We can only grow and mature by the power of Gods Spirit, ..our spirit is connected to God via his Spirit ,when Spirit gives birth to spirit

You appear to be suggesting that, after we are initially saved, you don't need the Bible, because, as you say:

"We can only grow and mature by the power of Gods Spirit"

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Our spirit communicates with the Holy Spirit, then it’s relayed to our minds......we learn and grow by the Spirit, you don’t know God without His Spirit ....that’s why we need to be Born Again.

No idea what you are trying to say here.

What I am saying is that the mind and spirit work as one. I guess you are saying, throw away your Bibles, because the Spirit works independently of the written Word that the Eternal God commanded.

 

[Ritajanice]

You appear to be suggesting that, after we are initially saved, you don't need the Bible, because, as you say:

"We can only grow and mature by the power of Gods Spirit"

Are you able to answer my question about sin?....I might get a better understanding then of why you believe what you believe....?
We grow and mature by reading the Bible ..by the leading of the Holy Spirit..he brings God’s word to our understanding as we are now God’s spiritual children....we can’t understand God’s written word, without His Spirit testifying Gods truth to our spirit, which is then relayed to our mind.....we can only communicate with God via His Spirit in our spirit.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.



I guess you are saying, throw away your Bibles, because the Spirit works independently of the written Word that the Eternal God commanded.

God is a Living Spirit....we communicate with him via his Spirit, through reading his written word...the Bible is Gods written word, which we understand what he is saying via His Spirit...the Holy Spirit brings our spirit to understand the written word of God.....as it was written by people who were inspired by his Spirit,God’s Spirit led them through his Spirit what to write...he spoke to them in the Spirit.

Therefore as we are in the Spirit , that’s how we learn, via His Spirit, he is our teacher and guide to understanding God’s word in our spirit....the written word was written in the Spirit...therefore can only be understood via the Spirit...

It’s taken the Spirit years and years, to bring me to understanding God’s word....we learn to communicate with God via his Spirit........we go from the flesh....into the Kingdom when we become Born Again....we never stop learning to communicate with God via his written word...

Are you able to answer my question about sin?..I don’t think our conversation can go further, without that question being answered.....?

I won’t force the question any further..I’m afraid it shuts our conversation down, ...as by answering that question, it would help me understand why you believe what you believe....

 

[setst777]

Are you able to answer my question about sin?....I might get a better understanding then of why you believe what you believe....?
We grow and mature by reading the Bible ..by the leading of the Holy Spirit..he brings God’s word to our understanding as we are now God’s spiritual children....we can’t understand God’s written word, without His Spirit testifying Gods truth to our spirit, which is then relayed to our mind.....we can only communicate with God via His Spirit in our spirit.

God is a Living Spirit....we communicate with him via his Spirit, through reading his written word...the Bible is Gods written word, which we understand what he is saying via His Spirit...the Holy Spirit brings our spirit to understand the written word of God.....as it was written by people who were inspired by his Spirit,God’s Spirit led them through his Spirit what to write...he spoke to them in the Spirit.

Are you able to answer my question about sin?..I don’t think our conversation can go further, without that question being answered.....

The Scriptures teach us that we all sin, and anyone who says that they never sin we make God out to be a liar.

1 John 1:10 (WEB) 10 If we [believers, includes the Apostle John] say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Scriptures teach us that we all sin, and anyone who says that they never sin we make God out to be a liar.

Thank you for answering...I now know why I’m not understanding you...I’m not saying you are wrong, or that I am more knowledgeable than you..

We are just on different levels of spiritual understanding...therefore it won’t be edifying imo to continue with our discussion.....therefore I would like to cease discussion with you....God Bless.

The word of God says that we have been Born Again of imperishable seed..

◄ 1 Peter 1:23 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. New Living Translation For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. English Standard Version since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; Berean Standard Bible For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. Berean Literal Bible having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God, King James Bible Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

.His word also says.

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◄ 1 John 3:9 ►

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Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. New Living Translation Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. English Standard Version No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. Berean Standard Bible Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. Berean Literal Bible Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:10 (WEB) 10 If we [believers, includes the Apostle John] say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

 

[Grailhunter]

God is Spirit....His word is spoken in Spirit and truth.
I didn’t say the Bible isn’t necessary, we learn ,grow and mature in the Spirit, by reading it,but, we must understand it in the Spirit.

I am interrupting this conversation to interject a fun fact that people need to consider.

The Bible is great! But how many people were saved during the first 1500 years of Christianity…..People did not get Bibles in their hands until the 1500’s

 

[APAK]

I am interrupting this conversation to interject a fun fact that people need to consider.

The Bible is great! But how many people were saved during the first 1500 years of Christianity…..People did not get Bibles in their hands until the 1500’s

Who says the Spirit of God cannot operate and move to and into the hearts of people without his written word available, and us knowing all basics for salvation.

You know. when I opened my heart to God for the gospel's sake and for my salvation, I did not know about a lot of his written word. For example, I did not know that Jesus was given the title of lord by his Father, or us, until I heard it said and I read it for myself in the Bible later on. Evidentially, not knowing this truth did not stop God from visiting me one day, who was more interested in my heart/spirit condition and my willingness to believe in his Son that knowing Jesus was also my lord at that time.

 

[setst777]

I am interrupting this conversation to interject a fun fact that people need to consider.

The Bible is great! But how many people were saved during the first 1500 years of Christianity…..People did not get Bibles in their hands until the 1500’s

No one can know the exact number who were saved in the first 1500 years of Christianity, only God knows.

Regarding Bibles

No, they did not have complete Bibles, but the Letters of the Apostles, as we see in our NT Scriptures, were passed on from church to church and were read by the elders to the churches for teaching, admonition, warning, edification, and strengthening.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (ENIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s {{{holy apostles and prophets}}}.

But it is by the preaching of the Gospel that people come to know about God and the salvation He offers by repentance toward God and faith in His Son, manifested by following Him, being His disciples.

Luke 24:44-47 (WEB) 45 Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. [Matthew 28:19-20]

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) 20 … I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[setst777]

Who says the Spirit of God cannot operate and move to and into the hearts of people without his written word available, and us knowing all basics for salvation.

You know. when I opened my heart to God for the gospel's sake and for my salvation, I did not know about a lot of his written word. For example, I did not know that Jesus was given the title of lord by his Father, or us, until I heard it said and I read it for myself in the Bible later on. Evidentially, not knowing this truth did not stop God from visiting me one day, who was more interested in my heart/spirit condition and my willingness to believe in his Son that knowing Jesus was also my lord at that time.

There are many false gospels and false christs being proclaimed in the world, even in the USA. That is why the Apostles were careful to write down the Gospel by the Eternal Command of God for the obedience of the Gentiles that comes by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The NT Scriptures teach us that correct doctrine of The Faith is essential for salvation, admonishing us to hold fast to all the Gospel doctrine of the Christian faith. If our doctrine of the Gospel is in error, then our faith is misplaced, which is a barrier to salvation, and that is why the Scriptures are so very important.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (WEB) 1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4 (WEB) 2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy. For I married you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we didn’t preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you didn’t receive, or a different “good news”, which you didn’t accept, you put up with that easily enough.

Titus 1:9 (EWEB) 9 …holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, so that he [the overseer] may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict those who contradict him.

1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV) 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Acts 20:29-33 (WEB) 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up, and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

2 Timothy 3:4-5 (WEB) 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn away to fables.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ’s apostles. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

Jude 1:3-4 (WEB) 3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for The Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Galatians 1:8-9 (WEB) 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any good news other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

 

[APAK]

There are many false gospels and false christs being proclaimed in the world, even in the USA. That is why the Apostles were careful to write down the Gospel by the Eternal Command of God for the obedience of the Gentiles that comes by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25-27 (NIV) 25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith — 27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The NT Scriptures teach us that correct doctrine of The Faith is essential for salvation, admonishing us to hold fast to all the Gospel doctrine of the Christian faith. If our doctrine of the Gospel is in error, then our faith is misplaced, which is a barrier to salvation, and that is why the Scriptures are so very important.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (WEB) 1 Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4 (WEB) 2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy. For I married you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we didn’t preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you didn’t receive, or a different “good news”, which you didn’t accept, you put up with that easily enough.

Titus 1:9 (EWEB) 9 …holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, so that he [the overseer] may be able to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict those who contradict him.

1 Timothy 4:16 (KJV) 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Acts 20:29-33 (WEB) 29 For I know that after my departure, vicious wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Men will arise from among your own selves, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, remembering that for a period of three years I didn’t cease to admonish everyone night and day with tears. 32 Now, brothers, I entrust you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build up, and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

2 Timothy 3:4-5 (WEB) 3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn away to fables.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as Christ’s apostles. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.

Jude 1:3-4 (WEB) 3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for The Faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

Galatians 1:8-9 (WEB) 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any good news other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

Citing this scripture is great SS777, and most of what you wrote is directly applicable to the gospel.

The point is though, that before 'the gospel' was actually penned, it was recited many times, and remembered and memorized, to be passed on to others, in each generation, with the aid of the Spirit as guidance. And this of course did introduce errors for those that added or subtracted from the essence of the message of the hope and reality of salvation.

Note: when scripture speaks to say, 'what is written, it also applies to what is said or spoken....that was the intent I believe.

 

[Grailhunter]

No one can know the exact number who were saved in the first 1500 years of Christianity, only God knows.

Regarding Bibles

No, they did not have complete Bibles, but the Letters of the Apostles, as we see in our NT Scriptures, were passed on from church to church and were read by the elders to the churches for teaching, admonition, warning, edification, and strengthening.

Ephesians 3:4-6 (ENIV) 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s {{{holy apostles and prophets}}}.

But it is by the preaching of the Gospel that people come to know about God and the salvation He offers by repentance toward God and faith in His Son, manifested by following Him, being His disciples.

Luke 24:44-47 (WEB) 45 Then he opened their minds, that they might understand the Scriptures. 46 He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them [disciples] to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Acts 11:26 (WEB) The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. [Matthew 28:19-20]

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) 20 … I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ya I forgot that they were making copies on Xerox copy machines powered by squirrels.
"Read from church to church" Keep in mind that the word church in the Bible means congregations, no church buildings until after the Edict of Milan in 313 AD. And congregations were not necessary concerned with the Canon we know.....Different areas had their favored texts.

Look into the expense and difficulties of making copies of religious writings in that time period.

No originals or formals copies survived that is why the best we have is from the 2nd century and that is just one book…John. The rest of them are mostly from 4th century.

Bound books of the Bible, did not get into the hands of Christians until 1500’s, that is a few Christians, it was a slow and expensive process. The Protestant reform was the surge at getting the Bibles out to the people.

But what we do have, and I saw a picture of it, was a few pages of hand written verses…..from some one that could write, bound with a single metal ring....supposedly from the 1st century

 

[Grailhunter]

Who says the Spirit of God cannot operate and move to and into the hearts of people without his written word available, and us knowing all basics for salvation.

You know. when I opened my heart to God for the gospel's sake and for my salvation, I did not know about a lot of his written word. For example, I did not know that Jesus was given the title of lord by his Father, or us, until I heard it said and I read it for myself in the Bible later on. Evidentially, not knowing this truth did not stop God from visiting me one day, who was more interested in my heart/spirit condition and my willingness to believe in his Son that knowing Jesus was also my lord at that time.

Ya the Word of God can get to people different ways.....Back then it was mostly word of mouth. Now a days we have the whole Bible to study, back then they where saved with only the basics.

 

[setst777]

Citing this scripture is great SS777, and most of what you wrote is directly applicable to the gospel.

The point is though, that before 'the gospel' was actually penned, it was recited many times, and remembered and memorized, to be passed on to others, in each generation, with the aid of the Spirit as guidance. And this of course did introduce errors for those that added or subtracted from the essence of the message of the hope and reality of salvation.

Note: when scripture speaks to say, 'what is written, it also applies to what is said or spoken....that was the intent I believe.

Yes, I am sure there was a lot of word of mouth; however, the churches (assemblies) were closer knit than you may think, and there were Bishops and Overseers of the churches of Christ; and evangelists were blessed and sent forth with the Gospel to reach the lost.

The NT Scriptures are the Apostolic Founding Documents and the Rule of Faith that Christianity relied on to unify the persecuted Church and to defend “The Faith” ever since the 1st Century Apostolic Era.

This task of defending “The Faith” during those first several centuries after the Apostolic Era of the 1st century was instrumental in solidifying the Church in the face of persecution and many aberrant teachings. Concise statements called creeds, and also key terms, were developed, and being developed, to summarize and signify those essential doctrines of Scripture that represent Christianity in contrast to the false doctrines that attempted to corrupt the Faith from within and from without the church. Councils were formed to discuss these issues. This was already taking place during the times of the Apostles.

The Church received from Lord Jesus and the Apostolic Writers the foundation for that defense of the Faith in every area of doctrine and life. The early Church fathers generously quoted from the Scriptures we now have in our Bibles when teaching about and defending the Christian Faith. It is said that the whole NT can be constructed from just the Scripture quotations made by the Early Church Fathers in their writings, except for perhaps one or two books.

Blessings