Like I said, just if you have specific questions for me. But I do challenge you to accept the sayings of these passages, just as they are written.
Much love!
TULIP an open discussion
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Much love!
I never said there was any contradiction between the Living word and the written word.xx
I never experienced anything with Jesus...where does the word say we are Born Of Jesus...I experienced the Spiritual rebirth...?
When I was 3, I was in Sunday School. At 7, I was in Release Time Education, a Christian outreach. They taught the Gospel, and I remembered the teaching.
Much love!
Again..that isn’t saying how we are Born Of The Spirit .
We hear when we are being birthed in the Spirit..then we have the faith to believe in Jesus....
We are saved when we have received the rebirth....you aren’t saved from eternal damnation, not until you are Born Again.
Good, and that is why I prefer to give the main focus to the Bible.
Then I'll expand my comment to any subjective experience. So I stick primarily with discussing the Bible.
Much love!
The written word doesn’t say we are Born Of Jesus...God says we are Born Of The Spirit..not Jesus.
I believe you said you received Jesus into your heart.
God said we must be Born Of The Spirit,Born Again to see the Kingdom of God.
marks, regarding John 1:12,' and some translations say,
(Joh 1:12) But whoever accepts him, those who believe in his name, to them he gave the right to become children of God.(NEV)
This part in the scripture of John, is focused on why God was/ became present in his Son, so others could believe on/in his name. It is not a signature rebirth process scripture. In fact most scripture concerning conversion does not go much in any detail of the process. They leave the words as the same level as John 1:12.
John in 1:12 is not to describe the process of who or what occurred before, at, or beyond the point of belief in his name.
Revelation 3:20 revealed more about how we first believed
Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. (NLT)
Just saying, God was already there, calling or knocking before we believed...as this scripture suggests
1 Peter 1:3-8
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. ...(ESV)
Even though this scripture doe not say explicitly that God caused you to believe, he seems to be the central figure of all events for/in our conversion to believe in his Son and beyond.
and in this scripture
(Joh 6:37) All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and him that comes to me I will in no way reject.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace have you been saved through faith, and that faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
(Eph 2:9) It is not of works, that no one should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God beforehand prepared that we should walk in them. Unity Created Between Jew and Gentile
This scripture seems to suggest God, his Spirit worked our conversion, deliberately, and he prepared this action well before we were born.
Just saying....
Amen!..I’ve already explained that we were chosen and predestined to become children of God,before the foundation of the world.... His chosen sheep...who he chose, any way I’m off to look for scripture.xx
You’ve already posted it...I’m pretty tired , so I’m calling it a day..will be back tomorrow...hopefully, if it’s Gods will, with a load of scripture...God Bless everyone...what a joy having a discussion in a mature manner with no bickering.....that was a long time coming for me....thank marks, God Bless may see you tomorrow,xx
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
Does Calvin mention "force"? I don't think I read that anywhere.
The "will" is a complex matter. The entire Gospel of John explores the concept of belief, evidence, and witness and asks why some believe while others don't. Ever explored with John why some don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah?
Have you ever wondered why our Lord talked about the eyes and the ears and how they relate to unbelief? And why is being born again so important? What does being "born again" have to do with salvation?
Do human beings truly possess a "free" will, or are our decisions guided and shaped by our personal experiences, upbringing, education, and mental abilities? Additionally, why does the Bible refer to stubborn disobedience? How does stubbornness factor into this? Is stubbornness a personality trait, and do our choices reflect our personality traits? Finally, why would someone choose to steadfastly reject belief in the one true God?
Did Calvin talk about being a puppet? I don't remember that.
I don't think Calvin teaches that God uses force.
Paul taught the same thing. But Paul teaches that God is the creator, not the coercer.
Instead of "Total Depravity" Let's talk about a related subject and see where we might gain insight. In Romans chapter one, Paul seems to wrap up the entire human race under a particular form of unbelief based on how a human being responds to the existence of God. His wrath is poured out against unbelief. Does Paul convict the entire world of the following?
Romans 1:28-32
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Did God give us all over to a depraved mind? Maybe, maybe not. That's a question worthy of discussion. Do I fall somewhere on that list? Maybe I used to be on that list but now I am different. What made the difference? What explains my conversion experience? And why doesn't everyone have a conversion experience?
Behold
Well-Known Member
'Pre-destined". = forced.
Its best to explore Paul, as he explains why people dont believe in Jesus..
Here you go....
New International Version The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. New Living Translation Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. English Standard Version In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Berean Standard Bible The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. |
Being Born again is the only proof you have God's Salvation.
Why?
Because JESUS is Salvation, and so, to be born again, means that Christ is in you, and you are "in Christ" = having become "the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT".
Paul teaches that "if you have not the Spirit of God/Christ in you, then you are NONE OF God's".
Romans 8
If you read Genesis 1, you will read that ..
"let US.. .make MAN.. in OUR Image"..
"Image".. = Likeness.
So, does God have free will?
Then so do you.
As a matter of fact, "CHOICE" is proof of free will.
Have you made any choices in the last 2 mins?.. Like...>"i'll choose to keep posting about Calvin.""
See that/ ?
Welcome to your "Free will".. .as its your CHOICES that you make, that prove you have it.
Yes, Calvin teaches that you have no free will. = Puppet.
God on the other hand says..>"CHOOSE THIS DAY who you will serve".
1.) Demonic Calvin and His Theology
or
TRUTH>
The "choice is up to you".. = Reader., and remember that Calvin is a Devil and his theology is "doctrines of Devils".. Hebrews 13:9
"Pre-destined". = chose for you.
All are that , according to Calvin's warped bible theology, = ether pre-destined to be born again to go to Heaven, or you are pre-destined to go to hell, before you are born.
Do you have any family members who are not saved?
Any who died and were not saved?
Calvin teaches that God chose that for them.....
God is the Creator... absolutely.
God created Adam, then Eve.
Satan came and tempted Eve to make a = CHOICE.
That is not God pre-destining Eve to choose to bite the Apple.
She chose it.
Adam decided to do it... = CHOICE = Free will.
See, here is the thing.
If God causes you to not be able to Trust in Jesus, then How can God hold you accountable for being a CHRIST REJECTOR, which is why a person dies and goes to hell.
See that?
This is why I posted the passage from Romans 8 speaking of the Spirit of Christ in us. Jesus said Himself, the Spirit, and the Father would all live in us.
The Scriptures teach that those who receive Jesus - God's words, not mine - are those to whom God gives rebirth.
I do like to order my thoughts according to the specific words of the Bible, so I know I'm thinking about it correctly. I believe the Bible fully and completely, and I believe that it was written exactly according to the truth God shares with us. I think every word is correct, including here, and other places which tell us essentially the very same thing.
I don't think I said, "receive Him into my heart", I think you are picking that up from what others say.
If I were to elaborate on what I mean when I say "receive Jesus", I think it is in the way the Jews did not. Jesus came to them as Savior and King, and they rejected Him. I receive Him as my Savior and King. That He is my rescuer, and my rightful master.
Much love!
Well, predestination is mentioned a few times in the Bible, and force is not mentioned anywhere. How does God determine someone's destiny?
Consider the following passage.
Acts 4:27-29
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence . . .
The Apostle Peter recognizes both the will of man and the will of God in the same action. According to Peter, the Gentiles, Herod, and Pontius Pilate freely chose to stand against the Holy Servant Jesus. But at the same time, these people were doing "whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur." The very same act is directed by a human will and a divine will. Both are true at the same time.
Consider this passage also.
Genesis 15:19-21
But Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, for am I in God’s place? As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive. So therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” So he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.
Again we see both a human will and a divine will. What Joseph's brothers meant for evil God meant for Good.
So Predestination doesn't involve force. It involves both a human will and a divine will.
I'll get back to you on the rest of your post.
So then are you saying it's factually inaccurate? I think it's exactly true myself.
Much love!
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