Actually, force is inherent in the meaning of predestination, prohoridzo. To place limits in advance. When God limits something a certain way, limited it is.
Much love!
TULIP an open discussion
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Much love!
I don't suggest taking the leap into speculation, particularly when it would contradict other Scripture. Though I understand that you don't accept the plain saying of John's Gospel that I've been quoting.
Paul gives the exact same order in Romans 10. Those who believe and confess shall be saved. Do you see this passage as likewise factually wrong?
Much love!
Dan Clarkston
Active Member
Do you remember when he put out directives for people to be murdered like he did with Michael Servetus?
John calvin was like the catholics and like the people in islam in that he enjoyed having those killed that did not agree with his fake gospel. The Bible does not teach it's OK to have people murdered doe sit?
No, I don't think so, but it does teach "you shall know them by their fruits".
Much love!
Acts 2:21 KJV
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not . . . "and it shall come to pass that whosoever the Lord saves shall call upon His Name."
Acts 2:38 KJV
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Not . . . "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, that you will repent and be baptized."
Acts 3:19 KJV
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
There is a clear order of salvation consistently expressed.
@Ritajanice
Much love!
Copy that marks, as I also know that Paul gives the same 'general high level' order. And that was my point I was attempting to make to you. It was no imagination or speculation on my part it was a conservative view. I was saying without using those types of words, you were in speculation mode.
If you do not get my post then no worries, it might come to you later.
You neglected to answer my question.
There's no speculation, I'm simply quoting Scripture. So then maybe your reply IS an answer. Maybe something to think about.
Personally, I would answer, it's not factually wrong, therefore, the order is correct.
Much love!
I give the same or similar answer marks I gave to your in the other reply. Post #86. The 'high level' order is there to be sure although the details are absent, to show the Spirit of God begins and ends the process of your conversion, for sure, for his outcome and not yours. And I thought this is what you 'might' want to know. To know you must have been called, and then what actions you may have been involved in, for the progress and process of your conversion. And what was the Spirit of God doing in this entire process.
Again, no worries. I do understand what you wrote.
And I think I also understand what you are saying. No need to continue, I should say. I'm not thinking that there are unwritten "details" which overturn the truths in these passages. I accept what they say.
Personally I find nearly all disagreements over the Scriptures result from a failure to accept their plain saying.
Much love!
Look why do you make a mountain out of this very agreeable point of discussion...to make you happy, of course it is factual, it is not in a detailed form however. You can see my point I hope...
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I say, get out of the final digestive tract and recognise humanity encompasses more than a theory and God is greater than mens perceived wisdom.
Yes, the process of rebirth is indeed a miraculous mystery to us, and God is indeed greater in wisdom as he alone initiates the process and call for our salvation by his design, and not by us, with our own so-called 'free' will. It's a Godly affair and few are invited to the party, and most are not.....because, (fill in the blank)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
My thought is that Paul was referring primarily to the consciously, unrepentant wicked, who yield to utter selfishness, to the loss of their Salvation. Paul's point seems to be that sin is manifestly in us all, even though not in all of us in the precise same way. Some are beyond repentance, and some do these things are are willing to repent.
Rom 2.1 you who pass judgment do the same things.
Paul's idea seems to be that we should not judge others who do these things because we are capable of similar things, even if we are ultimately willing to repent. Repentance will require that we admit that we do similar things so that God will not only forgive us but also give us renewed virtues to do the right things.
Paul is not here speaking of why one chooses to harden his heart and another repent. Paul is simply exhorting believers to be those who do not harden their hearts and judge, thereby cutting themselves off from God's grace and virtue.
So it depends here on how you're defining "Total Depravity?" If you define it as Paul did, given the unrepentant kind, in which a person chooses to harden his heart, then no, this does not apply to all men. But if you define it as the sins that we are all capable of, with the ability to repent, then yes, we are guilty of those things.
Since I think Paul was only speaking of those who are willfully unrepentant, I do not personally think we are all Totally Depraved. But I'm not sure how Calvin or others in Calvinism wish to apply these distinctions?
I think that Calvin and Luther both saw the Soul in Bondage, subject to God's choice to save them, as opposed to their choice to be saved. And I would reject that.
My thought is that God has determined who He wanted to save, in advance, and these willfully choose to be saved and to repent. Those who He has not chosen are planted by the work of men whose choices were their own, apart from God's will, so that those born of this kind are predictably resistant to Salvation. They are free to choose for Salvation, but because of their environment they do not.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Again, that is not saying how we are “ Born Again “ I see you mention nothing about the Spiritual eyes and ears we receive as soon as we become “ Born Of The Spirit “....did you recognise your spiritual eyes and ears as soon as you were Born Again?
You keep saying you believe the “ Bible”:you can’t believe the Bible without the Living rebirth?
That’s what I’m trying to get across...Spirit gives gives birth to spirit....isn’t something you read, well you do read it, what I’m trying to say is....Spirit gives birth to spirit...is an actual “ supernatural Spiritual event, A Living powerful ,mind blowing event, when we become Born Of the Spirit....
Gods word is Alive in Spirit and we need to receive his Living word in Spirit and truth.
That Living word is Gods Spirit which is Alive and Active today in the world.....his Living word is everywhere, it NEVER ceases to exist.
How does his Spirit get into us?...
How would we know he is testifying to our spirit?
Ok...what do you do yourself?
How can you receive the Spirit , just by initially believing in Jesus?
We believe initially...then what?
Can you explain what your having difficulty with, I’ve had this said a few times from members?
If you communicate the difficulty, then maybe I can explain?xx
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