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setst777

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Ya I forgot that they were making copies on Xerox copy machines powered by squirrels.
"Read from church to church" Keep in mind that the word church in the Bible means congregations, no church buildings until after the Edict of Milan in 313 AD. And congregations were not necessary concerned with the Canon we know.....Different areas had their favored texts.

Look into the expense and difficulties of making copies of religious writings in that time period.

No originals or formals copies survived that is why the best we have is from the 2nd century and that is just one book…John. The rest of them are mostly from 4th century.

Bound books of the Bible, did not get into the hands of Christians until 1500’s, that is a few Christians, it was a slow and expensive process. The Protestant reform was the surge at getting the Bibles out to the people.

But what we do have, and I saw a picture of it, was a few pages of hand written verses…..from some one that could write, bound with a single metal ring....supposedly from the 1st century

The tone in which you wrote your response is not very Christian-like.

While copies could not be made for all people, many of the churches had at least one hand-written copy of a Letter from the Apostles, and the churches shared the letters for the most part with other churches. Thousands of copies of the NT letters were hand-copied during the first few centuries.

Yes, churches during the 1st to 3rd centuries were conducted mostly in homes of Christians because of the persecution of Christians during that period.
 

Ritajanice

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Who says the Spirit of God cannot operate and move to and into the hearts of people without his written word available, and us knowing all basics for salvation.
We only need to know in our heart/ spirit that we are Born Again, the Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are God’s children , God does it HIS way, the actual rebirth/ regeneration is mind blowing, it was in my case...all I knew, when God birthed my spirit into His,” Spirit gives birth to spirit “was just that, Born Again, by the testifying of His Spirit to my spirit, He spoke to my spirit as he was indwelling me, testifying with my spirit, my spirit recognised his Spirit straight away, it all happened very naturally, just as God had planned it before I was Born..I was chosen ,predestined , all according to his purpose and plan...

God does it all, man plays no part in becoming Born Of The Spirit..it’s a supernatural, spiritual act that only God can do...I was Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...

Then as His word says, anyone who has been Born Again doesn’t go on sinning because they have been Born of God’s seed....without that heart knowledge that one is Born Again of God’s seed, then how can they understand in the Spirit, that they don’t carry on sinning.....unfortunately imo, some believe from their own intellect .....

You must know that in ones heart/ spirit...not ones intellect, it’s the Spirit in our spirit who relays that information to our intellect....intellect and knowledge of scripture saves no one....it’s God’s Spirit that saves us from eternal damnation, when our spirit becomes Born Again, by the Living and enduring word of God...God’s Spirit is Alive And Active in our hearts/ spirit......accomplishing Him will through us...pretty amazing stuff, in fact I find it “ mind blowing “...

If God prompts me to share my testimony on becoming Born Again, it will be done....all Glory of my spiritual rebirth goes to God.....biblical knowledge saves no one.

Only God’s Spirit can save us from eternal damnation, when he chooses to gift us faith/ rebirth/ regeneration, no one can bring their own spirit Alive in Christ.

Once we receive the Spiritual rebirth, then and only then can we understand the Bible.its understood via the Spirit.

Of course, I’m not saying one can’t read the word of God, but, to fully understand God’s word, we must be Born Again....otherwise all one is doing is reading in their own intellect, piecing scripture together in their own intellect..
 
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Ritajanice

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I am interrupting this conversation to interject a fun fact that people need to consider.

The Bible is great! But how many people were saved during the first 1500 years of Christianity…..People did not get Bibles in their hands until the 1500’s
Hello, the Bible is most definitely needed once we become Born Again....as our spirit has become Born Again, therefore a spiritual child of God.

If one thinks/ believes that one must read a Bible to become Born Again by the Spirit of God, then they are very much mistaken.

I became Born Again of imperishable seed, that seed that birthed my spirit when..” Spirit gives birth to spirit “ that seed that we receive into our heart permanently ,is the Holy Spirit..He gifts us the faith which is a manifestation of the Spirit, without God given Faith, then one would have no faith at all, only human faith..

Faith from God is very much Alive and Active....The Spirit is a Living Spirit, how else could God bring our spirit Alive ,if His Spirit wasn’t Alive?

This is why I am always led by the Spirit of God to give my testimony imo/ belief...one doesn’t 100% not need to read a Bible before the Spiritual rebirth, as it’s a Living Supernatural/ Spiritual rebirth...

After the rebirth when we become Spiritual Children Of God...then yes, we need that written word of God to grow and mature in the Spirit....it’s the Holy Spirit’s role to open up the scriptures to Gods chosen/ predestined children...we learn from Him and only Him.

All in my opinion/ belief...God gets all the Glory......
 
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Ritajanice

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God’s word also says to a “ Born Again “ note I say “ Born Again “

We have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...which one should know that in their heart/spirit....

A Born Again as God’s word says, does not continue to sin because they have been Born Of God’s seed...again one must know that they have been Born Again of imperishable seed,...when the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Without the Spirit residing permanently in our hearts, when we become Born Again of imperishable seed...

Then it would only be the human intellect leading themselves through scripture....without the witness, the Holy Spirit in our hearts, ..we are none of His, we must be Born Again to see the Kingdom of God.

My opinion/ testimony and belief.

Edit to add. If one says that they have been Born Again of imperishable seed, then go onto say that they still sin....then they have not received the truth, that a Born Again does not continue to sin because they have been Born of God’s seed....

I only believe what I believe to be Born Again scripture...if God says that a Born Again doesn’t sin...then that’s his word....they don’t, no other scripture is needed......unless of course that scripture says, a “Born Again “ sins, there is not one verse in scripture that says a “ Born Again “ sins....impossible because God’s Spirit can’t indwell a sinner......In Jesus Name, Amen!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Okay, I understand what you mean. Allow me to share a story to illustrate what I believe people are attempting to convey. The conventional understanding of salvation among Christians is analogous to traveling across the Atlantic Ocean on a ship to arrive at salvation. In this analogy, God's grace is akin to Jesus buying a ticket for everyone. To board the ship, one simply needs to accept the ticket from Jesus and board the ship.

Jesus' death on the cross is akin to buying a ticket for everyone. The common understanding of the cross is that Jesus was the atonement for the entire world -- everyone and for all time.

Jesus freely offers a ticket for salvation to anyone who asks for it, with just one condition: Those who take the ticket must pledge fealty. Some people accept the offer with this condition, while others choose not to.

In the analogy above, God's grace is represented by Jesus purchasing a ticket for everyone and providing the ship. Our responsibility is to accept the ticket from Jesus with the condition that we wait patiently until the ship arrives at the harbor. If we fail to receive the ticket, we will not arrive at salvation. Moreover, if we lose our patience and give up before the ship docks, we will not arrive at salvation either. Only those who receive a ticket and patiently wait at the dock will arrive at Salvation.

If a person receives a ticket from Jesus Christ and boards the ship, they will be taken across the Atlantic to reach salvation. However, if the person becomes impatient and disembarks before the ship reaches its destination, they will miss the opportunity. This is similar to persevering in faith. One must not only accept the ticket from Jesus but also have the patience to wait for the ship to reach its destination.

My position is similar to the analogy above with one, fundamental refinement. God's grace includes a fundamental inward change of those whom he is saving. The decision to accept or reject a ticket from Jesus involves both the mind and the heart. Likewise, the patience required to wait for the ship to arrive also involves a strength of character and resilience also provided according to God's grace.

According to Jesus, most people are willing to accept a ticket, but not all of those who accept a ticket from Jesus are willing to wait until the ship docks. According to the Apostles Peter, Paul, and James. God supernaturally prepares the heart to wait for Jesus to return and never give up the faith.

I disagree with this analogy,

I like the song People get ready.. It sort of uses the same analogy, but your boarding a train.. I boarded the train 40 years ago. I have been headed to my final destination since then. and nothing can stop that. I like the analogy of the ark also. God sealed them in, They can;t get out even if they wanted to. For the time until they arrived on their destination. They lived life with its up and downs, and I am sure had to trust God in many areas. And I am sure they struggled
I totally agree. But I hope that this will give us all an opportunity to practice hearing and thinking about what other people say. The opportunity is here if anyone should wish to take it. :)
I see it as a must, if we do not listen, we will never understand.. and even if we wanted to help or receive help. we could not. because we are not hearing right.
I really don't know.
 
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CadyandZoe

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I understand that. But I don't see it being valid. You cause something to happen, but you are not responsible for it happening.

Much love!
Jesus tells a parable about one son who obeys his father and another son who doesn't. Did Jesus cause the sons to behave the way they did?
 

CadyandZoe

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No Scripture states that we boast in our faith. Paul wrote that we boast in "the hope of the glory of God."
Yes, but in that passage, he mentions two different boasts: 1) boast in the hope of the glory of God and 2) boast in our tribulations. I was making reference to his second mention of boasting.

Why do we boast in our tribulations, according to Paul?

And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint . . .

Focus on the word in bold: "knowing" We boast in our tribulations KNOWING that bla, bla, bla. This kind of knowledge isn't found in a book. This is the kind of knowledge that we learn by experience. Paul is talking about experiential learning. We acquire knowledge about ourselves through direct practice. We reflect on our faith experience to identify a new and permanent quality of our faith.

What do we know about our faith from experience? God tests us. Some of us fail and fall away, while others of us remain. And the more times we remain, the more our confidence builds until we eventually come to realize that our faith is permanent.

Many people have learned through their own experiences that difficult and challenging times can help develop perseverance. Perseverance, in turn, can lead to a proven faith, which brings about hope that does not disappoint. The Greek word used to describe "proven faith" is δοκιμήν, which refers to something that has been tested and proven. To illustrate this concept, the Greeks used to test pots to see if they leaked. Those that passed the test were labeled as "tested and proven," while those that leaked were labeled as "tested but not proven" and were deemed unfit for use.

According to Paul, a tested and proven faith is the solid basis for hope. To say that a proven faith might fall away is to deny what the apostles teach us about the connection between the testing of our faith and our confident expectation in our being glorified at the return of Jesus Christ. If an unbreakable faith was not possible, then no one would have a basis for hope. The only thing remaining would be fairy tales and wishful thinking.

It is NOT as you suppose, that we might fall away simply because we can fall away. In Paul's view, God leads those whom he is saving into a state of "assurance", which is solidly grounded on proof. How does Jack know he is being saved? Jack has proof. How does Mary know that she will be saved and see her Lord when he comes? She has proof. The basis of our hope in the gospel is the testing and proof of our faith.

No Scripture teaches that born again Christians will remain faithful; in fact, as I have shown you before, Paul admonishes the Elect to remain faithful to inherit the promises.
Yes, the Apostles teach that Born-Again Christians will remain faithful. Warnings and exhortations do not support the idea that faith can never be tested and proven. Both are true.


James teaches us of the Believers responsibility to remain faithful to inherit the Crown of Life.
I disagree with your interpretation. James is not teaching believers about their responsibility. He is noting those among the believers who are "blessed". Blessed are those believers who survive the testing of their faith. Why? Because when God tests our faith, this affords us an opportunity to know ourselves.

Suppose a rich landowner won't pay John his wages. Since John is unable to feed his family, he wonders whether God is good and whether he can continue to believe in a God who doesn't seem to care for those of faith. But John doesn't lose his faith and he keeps believing. What does John learn about himself? He learns that if his faith can survive such extreme hardship then it can survive whatever else God might bring his way. John learned about the quality of his faith. His faith is deemed "dokime" -- proven. And according to the Apostles a "dokime" faith will never fail.


The guarantees that Spirit indwelt Christians have is dependent on them to remain diligent to walk by the Spirit who lives in them.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee.
Paul taught us that the indwelling Spirit will only give Eternal Life to the Christians who sows to the Spirit without giving up.
But contrary to your interpretation, he is not saying that one must first sow to the Spirit and keep sowing to the Spirit before God pours out his Spirit into the heart. You have that backwards. A person continues to sow to the Spirit because the Spirit has been poured out in our hearts. Action follows inwardness.
To know, is to have experiential knowledge, or at least knowledge of something.

To foreknow, is to have experiential knowledge ahead of time.
Really? How does that work? Let's say that someone flips a coin at 5 o'clock and it comes up heads. To know whether it was heads or tales one must be at the event at 5 o'clock. (As you say, to know is to have experiential knowledge of the event.) Suppose one is allowed to bet on the outcome. Knowing the outcome in advance would be a great advantage. But we can't know the outcome until it happens.

Let's invent a machine, "the Visionator," that allows us to see ahead in time. With the Visionator we can know the future before it happens. At 3 o'clock we can place a bet on "heads" for a coin-flip that will take place at 5 o'clock.

But let's be more accurate here because the accuracy of language is required at this point. The Visionator does not have the ability to witness a coin flip before it happens. Rather, it relies on empirical knowledge and somehow "sees" the future event, allowing it to report back the outcome to us. To clarify, the Visionator must be present at the event in order to know whether it was heads or tails and report back the result accurately. Our decision to bet on "heads" is made possible because the Visionator exists in the future and it has the ability to report to us who are living in the present. The Visionator's keen awareness of what lies ahead still depends on experiential knowledge.

But God is not a "Visonator"; he is a creator. His knowledge of the future is not based on seeing the future; it is based on creating the future. God is not using his Visionator in order to pick and chose whom to bless based on what a person will do in the future. God's election is based on creating people who will do what needs to be done and having them do it.

Your use of the word "cause" expresses very clearly what you mean.
Words need context for meaning.
 

CadyandZoe

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The many Scriptures that I quoted to you were written to born again Christians, with frequent pronouns such as, "we," "us," "our," showing us that the warnings given includes the Apostolic Writers who wrote them; so, your entire argument is a rejection of God and His Word.
Peter speaks about those who are born-again to a living hope. In your view, the presence of warnings nullifies our hope and it isn't actually a living hope at all.
 

CadyandZoe

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The man in a novel is not a real person, and therefore does not act. He performs no actions, being merely a verbal representation of the mind and imaginations of the author. Therefore, if sin is being committed, it is being committing by the writer, due to the fact that the character is not even real.

Not to mention, the Bible is specific, that God does not sin, nor does He tempt man to sin.

Much love!
I think you mean to say that the character in the novel does not perform "real" actions. But he does perform actions—fictional actions. The only difference between real actions and fictional actions is a matter of ontological categories. The Bible teaches us that God transcends his creation and what does that mean if it doesn't mean that God is a different kind of entity than created beings?

I agree that God does not sin or tempt a man to sin. I get that. But can Jesus tell a story wherein a man is sinning? For instance, Jesus tells a story about a group of Pharisees who see an injured man laying beside the road and they do nothing at all to help him. Jesus did not sin and neither did his story about sinners commend sin at all. In fact, his story is critical of the sin and praises the good Samaritan.

The author/novel analogy attempts to explain the metaphysics of transcendence. Does the Bible teach or assume a hierarchical ontology, understanding that entities exist at different levels of fundamentality? Is God more real than we are? And if so, might this fact explain how God is able to "cause" me to make a free-will choice?

I realize this is a bit philosophical. So let me explain why it matters.

Some Christians have adopted a "monocategorical ontology" with respect to man and God. They assume that there is only one, single, basic category. Both man and God are beings that share a common fundamental existence. Both man and God are subject to the same laws of causation. God does not transcend his creation -- our existence; we all live in the same house.

Man has freedom of the will and is ultimately responsible for his actions. In this view, God is more like a parent than a god. He gives his children all the advantages possible so that his child might make, and continually make a free-will choice to believe in him and believe in his son. But God cannot be a determining factor in our salvation. Because man has freedom, we hold people morally responsible for their actions.

But the Bible also teaches that there are NONE who are good. That seems to be a major problem for that view because those who emphasize man's freedom would say that freedom of the will presupposes that a person could have chosen otherwise. Given that human beings could have chosen otherwise, why do they always choose evil? Why does the Bible say that NONE are good? Shouldn't we find at least one person, other than Jesus, who will always do good?
 

CadyandZoe

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Come to me, and I will give you rest. That sure seems like an offer to me. As far as quid pro quo, I don't see that in the Gospel, so I don't know what you have in mind there.

Much love!
I am reacting to those who maintain that God rewards people based on their choice to believe in him and his son. Doesn't conditional salvation sound like quid pro quo?

Suppose a farmer makes a deal with a rancher. He promises to give the rancher some fruit if he keeps his cows out of the fields. The agreement has conditions, and it implies "this for that."

Now, consider the following verse from Romans 10,

". . . if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Some may interpret this as a conditional promise: Salvation will be granted to those who confess and believe, implying "this for that." We are making a deal with God; if we give him confession and belief, he will give us salvation.

In my view, the key phrase in the statement above is "believe in your heart." Here the apostle locates belief in the heart rather than in the mind. When does faith become a saving faith? When faith is found also in the heart.

Paul isn't talking about feelings. He is talking about essence. When a belief becomes a fundamental aspect of our inner life and how we define ourselves, then it takes on an enduring quality. The faith lasts as long as the person shall last. My inwardness is just as fundamental to my existence as is my leg, my arm or my head. When faith becomes "who I am" that is the kind of faith that leads to salvation.
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes, this is often the case in debate between these POV's. Did he really mean that?

Why wouldn't he have meant that?
Well, okay. I'm sorry for my inaccurate wording. We are talking about the concept of limited atonement, and those who reject limited atonement bring us to John 3:16, believing that John meant to say that the cross was efficacious for everyone. We should remember that the cross was efficacious for reconciliation. But it takes both parties to reconcile. If a son is angry with his mother, both the son and the mother must cease hostilities and make peace with each other.

The cross of Christ gives each person the opportunity and the firm basis for reconciliation with God, but any given individual must agree to God's terms of peace before God will make peace with that person. Jesus says it this way, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Yes, God loved the world but the focus narrows down on "whoever believes."

To understand this better, all we need do is return to chapter one.
The following passage sets up the narrow focus of John's Gospel. Speaking of Jesus, John writes. (John 1:9-13)

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Here, John employs the term "world" to indicate the human race, and he (Jesus) enlightens every man. But once enlightened, not every man (or woman) responds to Jesus the same way. He came to his own, but not all of them received Jesus. John explains why some received him and why others did not. Birth from above made the fundamental difference between whether someone received him or not. John is talking about those who believed in his name who were born of God's will.

The cross is effective for the purpose of reconciliation but not everyone wants to reconcile with God. Even so, what counts is whether or not a believer has been born by God's will.

I find that pretty much all disagreements over the meaning of Scripture come down to this very thing, whether a certain verse actually means what the words themselves say or not.

Much love!
I think the debate boils down to the meaning various groups assign to the words. But in general we agree I think. :)
 

marks

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Jesus tells a parable about one son who obeys his father and another son who doesn't. Did Jesus cause the sons to behave the way they did?
Either He recounted actual events, in which case He was telling about what other people did. Or He was telling His parable with fictitious events, in which no one actually obeyed or disobeyed, it was a story. Not real people.

Much love!
 

marks

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I think you mean to say that the character in the novel does not perform "real" actions. But he does perform actions—fictional actions. The only difference between real actions and fictional actions is a matter of ontological categories. The Bible teaches us that God transcends his creation and what does that mean if it doesn't mean that God is a different kind of entity than created beings?
Let's just leave this alone, it's not going anywhere.

Ontological catagories? I think that's linguistic device. You are attributing rules that apply to fictional stories as if the same dynamics apply in real life situations. As if God were the author of our lives, but since they are our lives, we are responsible, not the author, but that's just what the author writes into his story, and has no bearing on the relations be God and man. Well, unless you've concluded that God determines all we will do and choose. Which you seem to have done.

Interesting conversation as always though!

Much love!
 

marks

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I am reacting to those who maintain that God rewards people based on their choice to believe in him and his son. Doesn't conditional salvation sound like quid pro quo?

Suppose a farmer makes a deal with a rancher. He promises to give the rancher some fruit if he keeps his cows out of the fields. The agreement has conditions, and it implies "this for that."

Now, consider the following verse from Romans 10,

". . . if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Some may interpret this as a conditional promise: Salvation will be granted to those who confess and believe, implying "this for that." We are making a deal with God; if we give him confession and belief, he will give us salvation.

In my view, the key phrase in the statement above is "believe in your heart." Here the apostle locates belief in the heart rather than in the mind. When does faith become a saving faith? When faith is found also in the heart.

Paul isn't talking about feelings. He is talking about essence. When a belief becomes a fundamental aspect of our inner life and how we define ourselves, then it takes on an enduring quality. The faith lasts as long as the person shall last. My inwardness is just as fundamental to my existence as is my leg, my arm or my head. When faith becomes "who I am" that is the kind of faith that leads to salvation.
I didn't write the words. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you'll be saved. If that seems like an inacceptible quid pro quo, I'm not the one you need to take that up with.

Those who received Him, even believing in His Name, to them He gave the right to become children of God. Quid pro quo? I see it as what John wrote concerning salvation, and I accept it as is.

Much love!
 

CadyandZoe

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Either He recounted actual events, in which case He was telling about what other people did. Or He was telling His parable with fictitious events, in which no one actually obeyed or disobeyed, it was a story. Not real people.

Much love!
Okay. Now we have two different fundamental states of existence in view: one is real, the other is fictional. Now, can you imagine a fundamental state of existence that is more real than real?
 

marks

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Okay. Now we have two different fundamental states of existence in view: one is real, the other is fictional. Now, can you imagine a fundamental state of existence that is more real than real?
Can you restate to me my objection to your view on this? And I think I need you to define what you mean when you say "real", if you wouldn't mind.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Okay. Now we have two different fundamental states of existence in view: one is real, the other is fictional. Now, can you imagine a fundamental state of existence that is more real than real?
I use to read science fiction for decades before I stopped, I can imagine all sorts of things. I understand that you equate us to fictional characters, and just like the author wrote the story of what his characters chose to do, that's all false, because it's fiction, there are no actual characters, merely a representation of characters drawn with words on a page. There is no one doing anything, other then the reader reading what the writer wrote. It's communication between writer and reader using a representation of people who don't exist. So to go on to say those characters in the story bear responsibility for their actions, there are no true characters, they have not chosen anything, because they do not exist. Rather, the writer wrote what he chose to write, and bears responsibility for his choices of writing.

I understand how this represents your view, that God is the originator of all that happens, and part of what happens is that He holds His characters accountable for the acts He has them do.

To which I reply, the one who determines that sin or righteousness is done is the one accountable, responsible, for that determination.

Much love!