TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

I didn't write the words. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth you'll be saved. If that seems like an inacceptible quid pro quo, I'm not the one you need to take that up with.

Those who received Him, even believing in His Name, to them He gave the right to become children of God. Quid pro quo? I see it as what John wrote concerning salvation, and I accept it as is.

Much love!

We are considering passages like Romans 10:9, which appear to be conditional promises. A conditional promise is a commitment that is contingent upon the occurrence of a specific event or fulfillment of certain conditions. In other words, the promisor’s obligation to perform is subject to a prior requirement being met.

Many people read Romans 10:9 as a conditional promise—God has committed himself to saving all who confess and believe.

Romans 10:9
. . . that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

But confession and belief are not enough. Only those who "believe in their heart" meet the condition of the promise. Believing in your heart is a concept that transcends mere intellectual understanding. This type of belief is intuitive, spiritual, and deeply personal. Believing in the heart taps into our innermost convictions and emotions.

Both sides of the argument believe this and accept it as true. Our disagreement centers on the apparent contingency implied by Paul's statement. What if a person stops confessing with the mouth? What if a person stops believing? Jesus and the Apostles have an answer for this question.

In the parable of the Sower, Jesus tells a story about a farmer who scatters seeds on the ground. Some of the seeds fall on hard ground, where they can't grow. Other seeds fall on rocky soil, where they start to grow but can't take root. Some seeds fall on soil that has weeds, which choke the young plants. The rest of the seeds fall on good, well-cultivated soil, where they grow and produce a good crop.

Jesus explains the meaning of the parable by saying that the seeds represent the word of God while the soil represents the hearts of people. Though many people hear the gospel and believe in it, only a few of them truly take it to heart and allow it to bear fruit in their lives. In other words, only those who have good soil, or a receptive heart, will produce a bountiful harvest.

The parable emphasizes that the quality of soil depends on the farmer, which in turn affects the production of fruit. There is a direct correspondence between a heart that God prepared and salvation, just as there is one between cultivating the soil and a harvest. This is why Paul talks about believing in the heart, and the fact that God's work within the heart guarantees a realized hope in salvation. This is why Peter talks about being born again to a living hope.

God meets the contingency himself for those whom he is saving.

 

[marks]

Both sides of the argument believe this and accept it as true. Our disagreement centers on the apparent contingency implied by Paul's statement. What if a person stops confessing with the mouth? What if a person stops believing? Jesus and the Apostles have an answer for this question.

I thought we've been discussion whether or not God controls all we do while not being responsible for all we do, isn't that right?

BTW . . . be careful speaking for me, I don't think you do so accurately.

Much love!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Can you restate to me my objection to your view on this? And I think I need you to define what you mean when you say "real", if you wouldn't mind.

Much love!

I hate to speak for you because I don't want to put words in your mouth or disrespect you in any way.

I am reacting to those who reject divine determinism because it leads to the unbiblical conclusion that God causes evil. I maintain that Paul deals with this objection in his epistle to the Romans, where he argues that God is the creator. I'm trying to explain how and why his answer makes sense.

God is not unjust because He creates people. In short, that is his answer. What we need to realize is that we are the thing molded. I was trying to explain what that means. What does it even mean to be a thing molded?

Paul uses a rhetorical question to frame his answer. He asks, "Will the thing molded say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this?'" The answer to this question is that function and purpose determine the "why." For instance, if a potter needs a vase to hold flowers, they will create one. But if they need a chamber pot, they will make a different type of pot. In other words, the form of an object is based on its intended use. Not only do they consider the function or purpose for which the pots were created, but they also treat them accordingly. It is not wrong to treat a vase like a vase, and it is not wrong to treat a toilet like a toilet.

Now, I understand your objection might be. "But Paul, people aren't inanimate objects. They are real people with real dignity. How can you talk about people as if they are inanimate objects?"

Well, it's just an analogy but it helps the reader understand the concept of transcendence. God is to the potter as the pot is to a person. Paul is hoping that his potter analogy will help his readers make contact with that aspect of reality.

What am I --- to God.

 

[marks]

I hate to speak for you because I don't want to put words in your mouth or disrespect you in any way.

It's about "Reflective Listening". I want to make sure you understand what I'm saying.

It works like this:

"That rabbit is huge for a rabbit!"

"You are saying this is a huge rabbit."

"Not exactly, for a rabbit, it's huge, but overall, it's still just a rabbit."

"OK, so you are saying this rabbit is huge compared to other rabbits."

"Yes, that's right!"

A simple and silly example, but I'm hoping it will exemplify that I'm asking for.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God is not unjust because He creates people. In short, that is his answer. What we need to realize is that we are the thing molded. I was trying to explain what that means. What does it even mean to be a thing molded?

Where I have an issue with this is that you are asserting that God made people people with the specific intent that they would sin.

So then, I build cars. (Not really, just for the analogy) I build this car to drive to drive in a circle only. No steering wheel. Front wheels fixed turned to the right. The car can only drive in a circle.

Someone comes along, and sees this car driving in a circle. "Why is this car driving in a circle?" "Because it wants to." Or. "Because it was made that way."

"Who is reponsible for this car driving in a circle?" "It's the car that's driving in a circle, so the car is responsible." Or. "The one who made it that way is responsible."

To me this is clear and definitive. There is only one initiator, ultimately. Either God intends for you to sin, so He made you to sin, and is responsible for what He made, or God intends you to not sin, yet you do anyway, and you are responsible.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

Yes, but in that passage, he mentions two different boasts: 1) boast in the hope of the glory of God and 2) boast in our tribulations. I was making reference to his second mention of boasting.

Why do we boast in our tribulations, according to Paul?

And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint . . .

Focus on the word in bold: "knowing" We boast in our tribulations KNOWING that bla, bla, bla. This kind of knowledge isn't found in a book. This is the kind of knowledge that we learn by experience. Paul is talking about experiential learning. We acquire knowledge about ourselves through direct practice. We reflect on our faith experience to identify a new and permanent quality of our faith.

What do we know about our faith from experience? God tests us. Some of us fail and fall away, while others of us remain. And the more times we remain, the more our confidence builds until we eventually come to realize that our faith is permanent.

Many people have learned through their own experiences that difficult and challenging times can help develop perseverance. Perseverance, in turn, can lead to a proven faith, which brings about hope that does not disappoint. The Greek word used to describe "proven faith" is δοκιμήν, which refers to something that has been tested and proven. To illustrate this concept, the Greeks used to test pots to see if they leaked. Those that passed the test were labeled as "tested and proven," while those that leaked were labeled as "tested but not proven" and were deemed unfit for use.

According to Paul, a tested and proven faith is the solid basis for hope. To say that a proven faith might fall away is to deny what the apostles teach us about the connection between the testing of our faith and our confident expectation in our being glorified at the return of Jesus Christ. If an unbreakable faith was not possible, then no one would have a basis for hope. The only thing remaining would be fairy tales and wishful thinking.

It is NOT as you suppose, that we might fall away simply because we can fall away. In Paul's view, God leads those whom he is saving into a state of "assurance", which is solidly grounded on proof. How does Jack know he is being saved? Jack has proof. How does Mary know that she will be saved and see her Lord when he comes? She has proof. The basis of our hope in the gospel is the testing and proof of our faith.

We do not boast in our faith. That is not what Paul was teaching. We boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Yes, the Apostles teach that Born-Again Christians will remain faithful. Warnings and exhortations do not support the idea that faith can never be tested and proven. Both are true.

That is your belief that rejects all the Scriptural warnings to born again elect Christians to remain faithful to inherit life.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

I disagree with your interpretation. James is not teaching believers about their responsibility. He is noting those among the believers who are "blessed". Blessed are those believers who survive the testing of their faith. Why? Because when God tests our faith, this affords us an opportunity to know ourselves.

Suppose a rich landowner won't pay John his wages. Since John is unable to feed his family, he wonders whether God is good and whether he can continue to believe in a God who doesn't seem to care for those of faith. But John doesn't lose his faith and he keeps believing. What does John learn about himself? He learns that if his faith can survive such extreme hardship then it can survive whatever else God might bring his way. John learned about the quality of his faith. His faith is deemed "dokime" -- proven. And according to the Apostles a "dokime" faith will never fail.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person {{{who}}} endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}} …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

No wondering is involved here. James is addressing Christians; in that they, of themselves, are to endure temptation; so that, when they are approved, they will receive the crown of life. This warning and admonition is real, because James ends by saying:

16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

The brothers and sisters who endure are those who show that they love God:

Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}}

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee.

To those who believe.

But contrary to your interpretation, he is not saying that one must first sow to the Spirit and keep sowing to the Spirit before God pours out his Spirit into the heart. You have that backwards. A person continues to sow to the Spirit because the Spirit has been poured out in our hearts. Action follows inwardness.

The Spirit is poured out on believers.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 (WEB) In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

And these born-again Christians are obligated to continue living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit to have Life.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB)
Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man Sows, that he will also Reap.
8 For he who Sows to his own flesh will from the flesh Reap corruption. But he who Sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} Reap eternal life. 9 {{{Let us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will Reap in due season, {{{if we}}} {{{do not give up}}}.

Peter speaks about those who are born-again to a living hope. In your view, the presence of warnings nullifies our hope and it isn't actually a living hope at all.

The "hope" is only for those who believe.

 

[setst777]

CadyandZoe said:
I hate to speak for you because I don't want to put words in your mouth or disrespect you in any way.

SETST777 RE: You sure like to reinterpret what I say.

CadyandZoe said: I am reacting to those who reject divine determinism because it leads to the unbiblical conclusion that God causes evil.

SETST777 RE: Yet, that is exactly what you believe.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said:
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: has caused us to be born again

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: God is not unjust because He creates people. In short, that is his answer. What we need to realize is that we are the thing molded. I was trying to explain what that means. What does it even mean to be a thing molded?

SETST777 RE: God is not unjust because God righteously judges each person according to their own works, although God does patiently lead us to repentance.

God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, even those who remain in wickedness, but God is not unjust for punishing those who deliberately refuse to repent.

Romans 2:4-5 ”Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,“

As you can see, God is kind and patient with all mankind, desiring us to repent, leading us to repentance, but not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly is leading all mankind to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where I have an issue with this is that you are asserting that God made people people with the specific intent that they would sin.

I understand your objection.

To be clear, I am asserting that God is creating stories that display his glory. The stories will have trials, struggles, sinning, love, resentment, goals, mysteries, adventures, clothes washing and everything else we see. And through these stories, we see the glory of God's grace, wisdom, honor, power, insight, love, and truth.

Everything God does makes sense within the narrative he is creating. He interweaves all of our stories within this mega-narrative.

Paul sums it up nicely: "[W]e know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." And how do we experience God's work? We experience it as a story.

How do we evaluate the story? We ask, "Was it a good story?" Did sinners find redemption? Was evil punished and good rewarded? Did we learn wisdom and gain insight? Did we learn more about our creator? Did we learn to love him more?

Joseph reflected on his own life, telling his brothers, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Genesis 50:20

 

[CadyandZoe]

We do not boast in our faith. That is not what Paul was teaching. We boast in the hope of the glory of God.

We boast in our tribulations because the proof of our faith is clear evidence that we are among those whom God is saving.

That is your belief that rejects all the Scriptural warnings to born again elect Christians to remain faithful to inherit life.

I don't reject the warnings. I see them for what they are. But unlike you, I don't interpret them through the lenses of contingency. I don't live in fear of what MIGHT happen. I live in the confidence and peace of what WILL happen. Paul tells us that proven faith will never fail.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person {{{who}}} endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}} …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

No wondering is involved here. James is addressing Christians; in that they, of themselves, are to endure temptation; so that, when they are approved, they will receive the crown of life.

I don't see this as a warning. I see it as a promise to those who endure temptation, and by "temptation," James means "trial."

But remember, James isn't talking to all Christians as you suppose. His readers know the subject of his discourse from the opening lines of his epistle.

"Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." James 1:2-4

There is no joy for those who live in fear of failure. I might believe now, but what about tomorrow? Something might happen to cause me to fall away or leave the faith under persecution. But James finds joy in the testing of faith when testing leads to endurance. This doesn't happen for all Christians. This is a special case of those who have been granted an enduring faith. O' how much joy we feel when we realize that nothing can shake us, nothing can make us leave Jesus. We have been tested and we remained. Rejoice!

The Spirit is poured out on believers.

Not all believers.

And these born-again Christians are obligated to continue living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit to have Life.

The point is, they won't stop because they were born again.

The "hope" is only for those who believe.

Not all who believe can have assurance; only those with a proven faith and indwelling Spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

God is not willing that "anyone" should perish, even those who remain in wickedness, but God is not unjust for punishing those who deliberately refuse to repent.

Okay. So what?

As you can see, God is kind and patient with all mankind, desiring us to repent, leading us to repentance, but not everyone will repent, although God patiently and kindly is leading all mankind to repentance. All this would be hypocritical by God, if God had already planned, determined, decreed and created mankind to think and act according to His will.

How is rewarding the good and punishing the evil hypocritical? I don't get that.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said: We do not boast in our faith. That is not what Paul was teaching. We boast in the hope of the glory of God.

We boast in our tribulations because the proof of our faith is clear evidence that we are among those whom God is saving.

We do not boast in our faith, as you said.

CadyandZoe said: Paul argues that we boast in a proven faith because we know that it will endure and our hope will not disappoint.

Paul never argued that we boast in a proven faith.

setst777 said: That is your belief that rejects all the Scriptural warnings to born again elect Christians to remain faithful to inherit life.

I don't reject the warnings. I see them for what they are. But unlike you, I don't interpret them through the lenses of contingency. I don't live in fear of what MIGHT happen. I live in the confidence and peace of what WILL happen. Paul tells us that proven faith will never fail.

You reject every single warning, teaching, and admonition in the Scriptures to remain faithful to inherit eternal life. You interpret warnings as not applying to born again Christians. But all the warnings are written to born again Christians.

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

setst777 said: James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person {{{who}}} endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}} …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

No wondering is involved here. James is addressing Christians; in that they, of themselves, are to endure temptation; so that, when they are approved, they will receive the crown of life.

I don't see this as a warning. I see it as a promise to those who endure temptation, and by "temptation," James means "trial."

James ends his admonition with:

"Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters."

That is a warning to the brothers and sisters in Christ not to be deceived by temptations, lest they reap death.

James 1:12-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

You don't think that is a warning? Bury your head in the sand.

setst777 said: And these born-again Christians are obligated to continue living, walking, and sowing to the Spirit to have Life.

The point is, they won't stop because they were born again.

Show me the Scriptures that state that the faith of a born-again Christians is guaranteed, will never stop.

You reject every warning the Scriptures give to born again Christians that they are to remain faithful, sowing to the Spirit without giving up, to be given eternal life by the Spirit. Not all Spirit indwelt Christians will remain faithful and will be cut off from Elect Israel.

Romans 8:12-14 (ENIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we [Paul includes himself] have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (WEB) 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our [Paul includes himself] admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Not all who believe can have assurance; only those with a proven faith and indwelling Spirit.

We agree. But you believe that proven faith is guaranteed to the end, but that is not what any Scripture teaches, rather that is your own assumption.

If you disagree, then show me the Scriptures that actually state that faith of born-again Christians is guaranteed to endure to eternal life.

 

[setst777]

Okay. So what?

How is rewarding the good and punishing the evil hypocritical? I don't get that.

In your teaching, God is not rewarding good and punishing evil for anything they did of themselves; rather, God created them and all the choices they make, to do good or evil. God already created some to be saved and others he created to be condemned. So, pleading with the wicked to repent is hypocritical of God in your belief system.

CadyandZoe said:
No, I don't think that follows. It proves that God takes responsibility for the evil in the world -- even the sin of Satan.

CadyandZoe said: "Please remember what John said, 'All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him, nothing came into being that has come into being.' This means that nothing falls outside the circle of 'all things.' This includes my sin, my repentance, and my redemption. Everything comes into being through Him."

CadyandZoe said:
God is not a passive observer of events that have already happened. Rather, he actively creates everything that happens in our reality in real-time. He is like a scriptwriter who not only creates people, but also their environment, time, location, and circumstances. He determines how they react to these circumstances and what motivates their actions. Therefore, God is responsible for every aspect of our reality.

CadyandZoe said: has caused us to be born again

CadyandZoe said: In order for God to save Egypt from a famine, God caused Joseph to have a dream, God caused his brothers to get jealous, God caused his brothers to throw them into a pit, . . . and so on and so on. The Good that God creates depends on his effort to arrange or direct the elements of every situation to produce his desired outcome.

God causes every single event and choice along the way. We can't escape this fact of our reality.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Paul never argued that we boast in a proven faith.

According to him, we rejoice in our sufferings, but it is evident that he is referring to those who have a tested and proven faith. Only those with an established faith can experience happiness amidst trials of faith because they are aware that they will not falter or lose hope.

Understand?

You interpret warnings as not applying to born again Christians.

Did I say that? I don't think so.

But all the warnings are written to born again Christians.

That is not true. I wonder if you know what "born again" means.

James 1:12-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

This is not a warning.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God,” for God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed. 15 Then the lust, when it has conceived, bears sin. The sin, when it is full grown, produces death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers.

This is a rhetorical admonition. "Let no man say . . ."

Show me the Scriptures that state that the faith of a born-again Christians is guaranteed, will never stop.

I already showed you. Apparently, you have not understood what it means to have a proven faith. It's like having a bar of pure gold. Each time the gold is tested, it remains gold. It never changes into lead or any other metal. Once the gold is tested, and proven to be gold, it will always remain. Likewise, a tested and proven faith will never fail.

You reject every warning the Scriptures give to born-again Christians . . .

I am familiar with your argument. You argue that since the scriptures contain warnings about failure then failure is possible and possible in every human being. But this philosophical point of view isn't Biblical. The presence of warnings assumes that failure is possible, but the scriptures also teach that failure is not possible for some believers, who have been sanctified by the Spirit of God.

But you believe that proven faith is guaranteed to the end, but that is not what any Scripture teaches, rather that is your own assumption.

On the contrary, a proven faith is guaranteed to the end by definition.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In your teaching, God is not rewarding good and punishing evil for anything they did of themselves; rather, God created them and all the choices they make, to do good or evil. God already created some to be saved and others he created to be condemned. So, pleading with the wicked to repent is hypocritical of God in your belief system.

Your objection isn't valid for two reasons. First, your objection fails to understand a fundamental principle of our existence. If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3). Mankind doesn't have autonomous free will. And if God didn't create everything that exists, including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God.

Second, God not only creates people, but he also creates their personal stories. Not only did he create Joseph's brothers, he created Joseph's brothers putting Joseph into a pit. And as Joseph noted, "What you meant for evil, God meant for good.

 

[setst777]

According to him, we rejoice in our sufferings, but it is evident that he is referring to those who have a tested and proven faith. Only those with an established faith can experience happiness amidst trials of faith because they are aware that they will not falter or lose hope.

We do not boast in our faith, as you said.

CadyandZoe said: Paul argues that we boast in a proven faith because we know that it will endure and our hope will not disappoint.

I am familiar with your argument. You argue that since the scriptures contain warnings about failure then failure is possible and possible in every human being. But this philosophical point of view isn't Biblical. The presence of warnings assumes that failure is possible, but the scriptures also teach that failure is not possible for some believers, who have been sanctified by the Spirit of God.

Nothing philosophical here; rather, God's word admonishes and warns us to be careful remain in the faith lest we fall away - no guarantees that we will remain faithful are ever made in the OT or NT Scriptures. That is YOUR philosophical argument that has nothing to do with the Scriptures.

You reject every single warning, teaching, and admonition in the Scriptures to remain faithful to inherit eternal life. You interpret warnings as not applying to born again Christians. But all the warnings are written to born again Christians.

1 Timothy 4:16 (Writing to Timothy) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save yourself and those who hear (listen to) you.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (Paul explaining about his own security) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected

Rejected: Gk: adokimos: worthless (literally or morally) -- castaway, rejected, reprobate
Strong's Greek: 96. ἀδόκιμος (adokimos) -- failing to pass the test

Philippians 3:10-12 (Paul explaining about his own security) 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

setst777 said: James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person {{{who}}} endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to {{{those who love him.}}} …16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers and sisters.

On the contrary, a proven faith is guaranteed to the end by definition.

By your philosophical definition, a proven faith is guaranteed. In contrast to your philosphy, our faith is to be proven so that we may be guaranteed eternal life.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens to] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but {{{has passed out of death into life.}}}

Written to born-again Christians, that they must remain faithful, diligent to sow to the Spirit to have eternal life.

2 Peter 1:8-11 (WEB) 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to not be idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten {{{the cleansing from his old sins}}}. 10 Therefore, {{{brothers and sisters}}}, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Galatians 6:7-9 (Writing to the Church in Galatia) 7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows [continuous sowing] to please the Spirit, {{{from the Spirit}}} will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if WE (believers) do not give up.

Romans 8:12 (To the believers in Rome) So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if {{by the Spirit}} you {{put to death the deeds of the body}}, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 (To the Christians in Thessalonica) 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

 

[setst777]

Your objection isn't valid for two reasons. First, your objection fails to understand a fundamental principle of our existence. If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence. "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (John 1:3). Mankind doesn't have autonomous free will. And if God didn't create everything that exists, including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God.

Second, God not only creates people, but he also creates their personal stories. Not only did he create Joseph's brothers, he created Joseph's brothers putting Joseph into a pit. And as Joseph noted, "What you meant for evil, God meant for good.

That is your philosophy, not found in the Bible.

As you say:

"If God doesn't create them and all the choices they make the alternative is nonexistence."

"And if God didn't create everything that exists, including my bad choices, he wouldn't be God."

Therefore, in your philosophy, God is hypocritical for pleading with, urging, admonishing, and warning the sinner to repent, when he already created their choice not to repent.

"What you meant for evil, God meant for good."

What this plainly tells us is that what Joseph's brothers, of their own choice, meant for evil, God meant for good.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Therefore, in your philosophy, God is hypocritical for pleading with, urging, admonishing, and warning the sinner to repent, when he already created their choice not to repent.

Some people who wrestle with the full implications of God's Sovereignty chafe at the idea because they picture a situation at the judgment where God condemns a sinner. We imagine the penitent sinner crying out, "I wanted to obey, but you made me disobey!!!" Truly, if God made us do things against our will, that would be unfair.

The key to unlocking our understanding of God's Sovereignty is remembering that God is our creator. He is creating a narrative, and God's actions are understood inside that narrative. In a story, it makes perfect sense to warn everyone, including those he has scripted to obey and those he has scripted to disobey. Everyday life is circumstantial—the way things normally happen. But the reason that governs our lives is the mind of God and every event and every person has a narrative purpose.

Thus, when God creates a man's choice not to repent, the significance of choice is understood from inside the narrative, where the man makes voluntary choices according to his motives, preferences, and exigent circumstances.

"What you meant for evil, God meant for good."

What this plainly tells us is that what Joseph's brothers, of their own choice, meant for evil, God meant for good.

While we both agree that Joseph's brothers made voluntary choices, this verse also indicates that the brother's choices also indicate God's intent.

"God meant for good."

Some will argue that God was simply making lemonade from lemons. But Joseph says that God intended the brothers' evil choices. The brothers' evil choices were part of God's plan. The good end began with an evil start, and God was scripting the entire story.

 

[marks]

Some people who wrestle with the full implications of God's Sovereignty chafe at the idea because they picture a situation at the judgment where God condemns a sinner.

It's the dodging of responsibility. You cause something to happen, it's on you.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

Some people who wrestle with the full implications of God's Sovereignty chafe at the idea because they picture a situation at the judgment where God condemns a sinner. We imagine the penitent sinner crying out, "I wanted to obey, but you made me disobey!!!" Truly, if God made us do things against our will, that would be unfair.

The key to unlocking our understanding of God's Sovereignty is remembering that God is our creator. He is creating a narrative, and God's actions are understood inside that narrative. In a story, it makes perfect sense to warn everyone, including those he has scripted to obey and those he has scripted to disobey. Everyday life is circumstantial—the way things normally happen. But the reason that governs our lives is the mind of God and every event and every person has a narrative purpose.

Thus, when God creates a man's choice not to repent, the significance of choice is understood from inside the narrative, where the man makes voluntary choices according to his motives, preferences, and exigent circumstances.

This is your doctrine, and none of this is taught in the Scriptures; therefore, this is all the imagination of mankind. God is holy and righteous because he is not responsible for all the sins of mankind; rather, God holds us accountable for the sins of mankind, and judges accordingly. You say this is all a narrative that God, as the Script-writer, created to happen; but that makes God responsible for our sins and all the evil that takes place. Thankfully that is not the God of the Bible. God is not playing some kind of sick game.

While we both agree that Joseph's brothers made voluntary choices, this verse also indicates that the brother's choices also indicate God's intent.

"God meant for good."

Some will argue that God was simply making lemonade from lemons. But Joseph says that God intended the brothers' evil choices. The brothers' evil choices were part of God's plan. The good end began with an evil start, and God was scripting the entire story.

The Scriptures do not teach that God intended the brother's evil choices; rather, what the brothers meant (intended) for evil, God meant (intended) for good.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's the dodging of responsibility. You cause something to happen, it's on you.

Much love!

The issue isn't responsibility. It's a matter of culpability. Yes, God is responsible for creating people who do bad things. But he is not culpable for what they do since God is the creator.

For instance, Jesus tells a parable about two sons; one obeys his father, and the other disobeys his son. Jesus is responsible for telling the story. But Jesus is not responsible for disobeying his father.