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Ritajanice

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1 John 3:9​

King James Version​

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1 Peter 1:23
Audio Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

New Living Translation
For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God.

English Standard Version
since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

Berean Standard Bible
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Berean Literal Bible
having been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, by the living and abiding word of God,

King James Bible
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
 

CadyandZoe

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Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

That is not how the Scriptures teach about God's grace. Rather, God is justly free to forgiven sins because payment was made for all sins by the death of Christ Jesus.
You truly don't see the contradiction in your statement? When you do, you might rethink your interpretation of the verse you quoted. Redemption involves payment, but not the payment you suppose. Jesus didn't give his life to satisfy justice. If you continue reading you will see that Jesus gave his life as a public demonstration of God's righteousness.
Before Christ's shedding of blood for us, God left the sins go unpunished because God was looking forward to the payment for those past sins by the sacrifice of His Son.
Where did Paul say that God waited for payment of the sins?
Christ's death please God because God's justice was satisfied by the shedding of his blood.
How does killing an innocent man serve justice?
Romans 3:25 (NIV) 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

Galatians 3:13 (WEB) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” [Deuteronomy 21:23]

1 Peter 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ
This is the problem. If you continue to hear "satisfaction of justice" when you read "redeemed" you won't arrive at the truth. I told you, the concept of redemption isn't concerned with justice. The concern of redemption is freedom. When a man pays the redemption price he frees a slave.
Forgiveness is only possible because the justice of God was satisfied by the sacrifice of His Son - the shedding of his blood.
If justice is satisfied, forgiveness is unnecessary. Since our sins are forgiven, then justice wasn't satisfied.
 

CadyandZoe

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The Scriptures uses the word "justified." We are justified by the blood of the cross.
No, we are justified by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) The purpose of the cross is reconciliation. (Romans 5:10)
God's wrath was satisfied by the blood of Christ shed for us. We are justified by his blood.
Wrath is not satisfied; wrath is mollified.
 

CadyandZoe

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For the second time, I never mentioned anything about punishment.
Of course, you didn't. But punishment is required for payment. You need not mention what is already understood from the terms you use.
The redemption is by Christ blood shed for us.
That's right. But the redemption is based on the mollification of God's wrath, not the satisfaction of Justice.
Lord Jesus satisfied the "moral obligation," by his sinless life and sacrificial death on the cross, and is received by faith.
He didn't satisfy my moral obligation.
I am just quoting the Scriptures, and you disagree because of your own doctrine.
You are quoting the Scriptures without knowledge of what they mean. I disagree with your interpretation, which you inherited from Christian theologians who also didn't understand what they read.

Anyone who confuses payment with forgiveness can't possibly understand the atonement.
 

CadyandZoe

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The Scriptures uses the word "justified." We are justified by the blood of the cross.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.
The error in your theology is your assumption that "redemption" means "satisfaction of justice", which it does not.
 

setst777

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No, we are justified by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) The purpose of the cross is reconciliation. (Romans 5:10)

No one disagrees that we are justified by grace through faith.

The disagreement you are having with the Gospel is that justification is through Christ's shed blood on the cross, which is received by faith.

Romans 3:23-25 (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith.

Wrath is not satisfied; wrath is mollified.

God's wrath is satisfied by the death of His Son so that those who believe in him will not suffer that wrath; rather, believers are justified by his blood. Those who do not believe remain under God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.
 

setst777

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setst777 said: The Scriptures uses the word "justified." We are justified by the blood of the cross.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.


The error in your theology is your assumption that "redemption" means "satisfaction of justice", which it does not.

According to "Romans 3:24," justification is through the redemption [payment of sins] that came by Christ Jesus.
 

setst777

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Of course, you didn't. But punishment is required for payment. You need not mention what is already understood from the terms you use.

Under the Old Covenant, did the priest punish and torture the sheep as an atonement for the people, or did they sacrifice the sheep, shedding its blood?

The Scriptures plainly state that payment was made by Christ Jesus by His shed blood on the cross, and payment is received by faith.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

That's right. But the redemption is based on the mollification of God's wrath, not the satisfaction of Justice.

Justification was paid for by Christ Jesus sacrifice on the cross. That sacrifice satisfied God's wrath against the people - those who believe.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

He didn't satisfy my moral obligation.

Your obligation is to believe in Lord Jesus, and faith is always manifested by repentance, and a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

However, all sins we committed before faith, and even those sins believers commit in weakness, are all satisfied by the perfect obedience of Lord Jesus to God His Father.

Lord Jesus satisfied the requirements of the Law in himself; otherwise, he could not redeem us from sin.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
 
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CadyandZoe

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No one disagrees that we are justified by grace through faith.

The disagreement you are having with the Gospel is that justification is through Christ's shed blood on the cross, which is received by faith.
No, our disagreement is over your position that Christ shed his blood on the cross to satisfy justice, which is not a Biblical idea. For the reasons I already expressed.

Jesus tells a parable about a king who forgave a servant. Jesus concludes that if we are unwilling to forgive our brother (or sister) then God will not forgive us. Now, if Jesus satisfied justice on the cross, what has God got left to forgive?

You do realize that payment of a debt is the opposite of forgiveness of a debt?
 

setst777

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No, our disagreement is over your position that Christ shed his blood on the cross to satisfy justice, which is not a Biblical idea. For the reasons I already expressed.

Jesus tells a parable about a king who forgave a servant. Jesus concludes that if we are unwilling to forgive our brother (or sister) then God will not forgive us. Now, if Jesus satisfied justice on the cross, what has God got left to forgive?

You do realize that payment of a debt is the opposite of forgiveness of a debt?

The Scriptures plainly state that payment was made by Christ Jesus by His shed blood on the cross, and payment is received by faith.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

God offers grace to sinners because of the sacrifice of His Son. Those who believe are forgiven.

You choose to reject the Gospel, and replace it with your own opinions. That is on you.
 

CadyandZoe

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setst777 said: The Scriptures uses the word "justified." We are justified by the blood of the cross.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.




According to "Romans 3:24," justification is through the redemption [payment of sins] that came by Christ Jesus.
That's what I mean. You think redemption is the payment for sins, which it isn't. When we talk about “paying for sins,” we’re referring to the consequences or obligations someone faces due to sin. Paul helps his readers understand the mode of salvation in passages such as the following.

Romans 6:22-23
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In this passage, Paul emphasizes that the result of sin, which he refers to as "wages," is death. He compares this with eternal life, which is the result of God's gift. The satisfaction theory of atonement does not consider this. If Jesus paid the wages of my sin, then eternal life is not a gift; it is what is deserved.
 

CadyandZoe

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God offers grace to sinners because of the sacrifice of His Son. Those who believe are forgiven.
Jesus sacrified himself but not as payment for our sins. Our sins are forgiven as you said.


You choose to reject the Gospel, and replace it with your own opinions. That is on you.
I am not rejecting the gospel. I am rejecting your theory of the atonement, which didn't come from the Bible. It came from others.
 

CadyandZoe

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Under the Old Covenant, did the priest punish and torture the sheep as an atonement for the people, or did they sacrifice the sheep, shedding its blood?
Does it matter to our question? Don't lose the topic of discussion. If a man murders another man, he is given the death penalty. The man dies for his own offense. If you say that Jesus' death was the satisfaction of justice, then you are NOT saying that our sins are forgiven. You can't have it both ways.
The Scriptures plainly state that payment was made by Christ Jesus by His shed blood on the cross, and payment is received by faith.
I get that. Our disagreement is over the effect of the payment. You say the payment satisfied justice, which it didn't. The purpose of the payment was propitiation or redemption, which are not acts of justice but mercy. Propitiation is the mollification of wrath, not the satisfaction of justice. Redemption is the price one pays to free a slave, not an act of justice but mercy.
Justification was paid for by Christ Jesus sacrifice on the cross. That sacrifice satisfied God's wrath against the people - those who believe.
Again, wrath is not "satisfied". Wrath is mollified.
Lord Jesus satisfied the requirements of the Law in himself; otherwise, he could not redeem us from sin.

1 Peter 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
Redemption isn't a matter of justice. It's a matter of mercy.
 

setst777

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That's what I mean. You think redemption is the payment for sins, which it isn't.

Redeem [exagorazó]
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; mid: I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.

When we talk about “paying for sins,” we’re referring to the consequences or obligations someone faces due to sin. Paul helps his readers understand the mode of salvation in passages such as the following.

Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.

Romans 6:22-23
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In this passage, Paul emphasizes that the result of sin, which he refers to as "wages," is death. He compares this with eternal life, which is the result of God's gift. The satisfaction theory of atonement does not consider this. If Jesus paid the wages of my sin, then eternal life is not a gift; it is what is deserved.

"Romans 6:22-23" does not teach anything about how believers were redeemed (purchased), but other passages do, which I repeatedly quoted for you.

Romans 3:23-26 (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

Galatians 3:13 (WEB) Christ redeemed [payment made for] us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” [Deuteronomy 21:23]

1 Peter 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

Redeem
[exagorazó]
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; mid: I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.
 

CadyandZoe

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Redeem [exagorazó]
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; mid: I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.
As you can see from the definition above, redemption has nothing at all to do with justice. The term indicates a slave that has been freed by the payment of money. This is an act of mercy, not an act of justice.
"Romans 6:22-23" does not teach anything about how believers were redeemed (purchased), but other passages do, which I repeatedly quoted for you.
I understand that the bracketed comments indicate your interpretation of the passages. But you didn't derive your interpretation from the passages. You are inserting your interpretation into the passages. Redemption is the payment for setting a slave free. Paul uses the term "redeem" when he is talking about being set free from sin. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were slaves of sin. We are all slaves of sin until God sets us free through Christ.
 

setst777

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setst777 said: Christ’s death did satisfy God’s justice.

Romans 3:23-25 (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his bloodto be received by faith.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

CadyandZoe said: No. On the contrary, if what you say is true, then God is immoral. (Heaven forbid)

Jesus sacrified himself but not as payment for our sins. Our sins are forgiven as you said.

Atonement must first be made by sacrifice before God can justly forgive anyone.

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20 He shall do this with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so he shall do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.

Leviticus 5:13
The priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin that he has sinned in any of these things, and he will be forgiven

Leviticus 5:16

He shall make restitution for that which he has done wrong regarding the holy thing, and shall add a fifth part to it, and give it to the priest; and the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and he will be forgiven.

Leviticus 5:18
He shall bring a ram without defect from of the flock, according to your estimation, for a trespass offering, to the priest; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning the thing in which he sinned and didn’t know it, and he will be forgiven.

Leviticus 6:7
The priest shall make atonement for him before Yahweh, and he will be forgiven concerning whatever he does to become guilty.”

Leviticus 19:22
The priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before Yahweh for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.

Ephesians 1:7
in whom we have our redemption (payment) through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:14

14 in whom we have our redemption (payment) , the forgiveness of our sins.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement (payment), through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

I am not rejecting the gospel. I am rejecting your theory of the atonement, which didn't come from the Bible. It came from others.

I am quoting the Scriptures and you are rejecting them.
 
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setst777

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setst777 said:
Redeem [exagorazó]
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; mid: I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.


As you can see from the definition above, redemption has nothing at all to do with justice. The term indicates a slave that has been freed by the payment of money. This is an act of mercy, not an act of justice.

Oh, so now you finally agree (although not admitting it because of pride) after repeatedly denying it, that "redeem" means "purchase."

According to the Gospel, redemption is necessary for God's justice.

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [payment] that came by Christ Jesus.
25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the {{{shedding of his blood}}} — to be received by faith.

I understand that the bracketed comments indicate your interpretation of the passages. But you didn't derive your interpretation from the passages. You are inserting your interpretation into the passages. Redemption is the payment for setting a slave free. Paul uses the term "redeem" when he is talking about being set free from sin. Jesus told the Pharisees that they were slaves of sin. We are all slaves of sin until God sets us free through Christ.

What is in brackets is the definition given for the word "redeem" in the Strongs Concordance, which is: purchase, buy, ransom, etc.

For instance:

----------------

Galatians 3:13 (WEB) Christ redeemed [exagorazó: paid, purchased] us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” [Deuteronomy 21:23]

Galatians 4:4-5 (WEB) 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law, 5 that he might redeem [exagorazó: pay, purchase] those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as children.

Strong's Concordance #1805 exagorazó: to buy up, i.e. ransom, fig. to rescue from loss
Original Word:
ἐξαγοράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: exagorazó
Phonetic Spelling: (ex-ag-or-ad'-zo)
Definition: to buy up, ransom, to rescue from loss
Usage: I buy out, buy away from, ransom; mid: I purchase out, buy, redeem, choose.

----------------

Romans 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption [apolutrósis: payment] that came by Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption [apolutrósis: payment] through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have our redemption [apolutrósis: payment] , the forgiveness of our sins.

Strong's Concordance #629 apolutrósis: a release effected by payment of ransom
Original Word:
ἀπολύτρωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apolutrósis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis)
Definition: a release effected by payment of ransom
Usage: release effected by payment of ransom; redemption, deliverance.

----------------

1 Peter 1:18-19 (WEB) 18 knowing that you were redeemed [lutroó: paid, ransomed], not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ

Strong's Concordance #3084 lutroó: to release by paying a ransom, to redeem
Original Word:
λυτρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: lutroó
Phonetic Spelling: (loo-tro'-o)
Definition: to release by paying a ransom, to redeem
Usage: I release on receipt of ransom; mid: I redeem, release by paying ransom, liberate.
 
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marks

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YOU are not being honest to deliberately omit the bolded words accompanied in paragraph one of my post.
I'm sorry if my quote missed something important to you, I was quoting the particular part that I was replying to. Sometimes I'll reply to an entire post yet only quote a portion of it, mostly to trigger the alert system. More often I'll center in on a certain place that I have something specific in mind that I want to respond with.

And sometimes I'll quote an entire post, and respond line by line through it all. Oftentimes, I'm only thinking of the one thing when I reply, and then on re-reading, I'll think of something else to reply to, from another part of the post, and quote that part.

There was no intent to deceive, or any such nefarious motive. I'm sorry if it seemed so! If you think I'm skipping over something, or you'd like to ask or question, or

If you'd like to respond to what I've written, I welcome that!

Much love!
 

marks

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You seem to argue that a spiritually dead person can discern spiritual things of God, which is contrary to a natural man!!!
Only by revelation from God. However, Scripture teaches us that Jesus is the true light who enlightens every man, that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, that If Jesus be crucified, He would draw all men to Himself, I believe all these things are true.

The theological term is "prevenient grace", a grace God gives before, to facilitate. I believe, based on the passages I've alluded to above, and others, and from my own life, that God, at some time in everyone's life, more than once, maybe, gives each of us enough revelation to be able to know, to have the opportunity to receive, or reject, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is what the Bible says, that God does in fact cause His grace unto salvation to appear to all men. And as we know not all men are saved, this is in the same way that Christ urges through Paul, "be reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5), and how John wrote that to as many as received Him, believing (John 1), these are active voice verbs, what we do.

We have to receive the reconciliation, again in that verse, it's an active voice verb.

Romans 5:11
and not only so, but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation.

No, I quite agree with you, that the natural man cannot understand the things of God, including the Gospel itself, without God's revelation to them personally. But for these reasons I also believe that God does in fact give that revelation, which we either receive or reject.

And those who are given over to their sin in God's judgment will never again see that revelation, and being dead in sin, without any revelation from God, will remain dead in sin, to be condemned by God's final judgment.

Much love!
 

marks

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Can you be more specific? How does telling a story make the author disingenuous?
We've been around this before. If he treats his characters as though they were autonomous when they are not, then I'd say he's deluded, failing to realize he is attributing characteristics to things which lack such. He's written a story and has lost touch with the fact that he's written a story.

Let's look at it another way.

He's written a story, and is seeking the fulfillment of personal relationship with his characters. This reminds me of when I played with my GI Joe dolls. I made up stories for them, set up the scenarios, I think my favorite was the moon walker. But I never became confused between my toys and my friends.

Let's look at it one more way.

He's written the story, and the story is us, and all our days, and all our choices, all our opinions, all our feelings, all is written, the story he wrote. And in this story, he presents himself, and he presents us, he tells us all about himself, and all about us. He tells us a story of a Creator God who commands against sin, and though the people sinned, yet he offers redemption to all who will come. He declares the world forgiven reconciled, and to those who will receive him, he will give new and eternal life. He tells us he is not only true, but is truth. But he's holding back a secret. It's not true. It's not really whosever, because after all, this is his story that he wrote, and these things are all preplanned.

When one of us characters responds, it's NOT because we are weary and seeking rest, it's because that's the way that page reads. Not that we want to unload a burden, rather, because we've been written that way. I'm really hoping you can see the difference between these things.

I think for me the most applicable analogy between your view and my view is the playing with toys compared to having relationships, and from everything I know about God, both in the Bible and in my life, He created me in order to have a real relationship with me.

And I know, this is where you start talking about what is real, and levels of reality, and things which we don't understand, no matter. The key point is when we are talking about reality we are speaking phenomenally, that is, according to our perceptions. It's what we are living, perceiving, experiencing.

It's within this "perception of reality" that we receive this message from God, come to me all who are weary, we urge you, be reconciled to God, the invitation is universal. Paul wrote that when and where each of us live is chosed by God to give us the conditions from which we would seek for God, Him being close to each of us.

I believe this is a truth, that God actually does position each of us with the intent that we would seek Him, and find Him, though He's not far. In your idea of a story written, where things that are given as true in the story are not actually true for the characters, who remain characters, God's dolls. GI Joes, each acting out their parts, some to be saved up later, some to be burned up, at the end of this part of the story. Though throughout the story, they are warned to not let that happen to them. But why? Well, every writer has their own ideas I suppose.

But I don't think that way. I believe God is true, as true can be true. I hope I've answered your question.

Much love!