Turkish President Erdogan - Is He The Sixth King Of The Fourth Empire Spoken Of By Daniel Chapter 7?

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Richard Neal

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Oct 3, 2012
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Bible prophecy, or end time prophecy can be a very strange and dangerous thing at times...Strange in that history has clearly shown that whenever end time prophecies are being fulfilled, the leading theologians and population fail to see their fulfillment at the time. For example, Jewish theologians and the population at large had studied, prayed for and prepared for the coming of their Messiah for nearly twelve-hundred years before Jesus of Nazareth suddenly appeared within their mist (Mal 3:1). Yet, He would eventually end up weeping over Jerusalem because "they did not know the time of their visitation" (Lk 19:44). Dangerous in that whenever the leading theologians misinterpret bible prophecy - or end time prophecies - and teach these misinterpretations to the population at large "The people perish for a lack of knowledge" (Hos 4:6). An example of this danger can be found with the first century Jewish sect known to history as the Essenes, the authors of the famous Dead Sea Scrolls. Because the sect of the Essenes was annihilated by the Roman legions in 70 A.D., many of their leaders and scholars were, undoubtedly, alive and in Jerusalem during the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. Consequently, not only did they not see the fulfillment of their eschatological hope of the appearance of their Messiah, but they would follow that by misinterpreting end time prophecy to such a degree that when the Roman legions showed up at their communities at Qumran and Masada, they saw in the Roman legions the fulfillment of their strange misinterpretation of end time prophecies and misidentified the Roman legions as the hated "Kittim," or "the children of darkness" and, as "the children of the light," they joined the Jewish Revolt against the Romans in anticipation of the coming of "The Teacher of Righteousness" who would defend them against the hated "Kittim." As history has clearly shown, the Teacher of Righteousness never appeared, the Jewish Revolt of 70 A.D. was not the cosmic battle between "Good and Evil" the Essenes believed it was and, as a result, the entire population - every man, woman and child was completely annihilated and lost to the collective memory of history expect for a brief mention of them in the works of Josephus and Pliny (Their hidden scrolls were not found in the caves around the Dead Sea until 1948).


Our generation is much like the Jewish generation of the first-century A.D. in that - for better or for worse - our generation will live to see the fulfillment of many end time prophecies and the Second Coming of the Messiah. It has already started in the rebirth of the modern nation of Israel foretold by the priest-prophet Ezekiel in the 6th century B.C. (Eze 37), fulfilled, as it was, back in the year 1948. The end time prophecies contained in chapters 38 and 39 (the War of Gog and Magog), 40 and 41 (the rebuilding of the third Jewish Temple at Jerusalem) and chapter 43 (the return of Jesus Christ) are yet to be fulfilled but, if properly understood and interpreted, to be fulfilled in the not to distant future.


Today's biblical scholars and theologians have much in common with the Jewish scholars and theologians of the 1st century A.D. in that, however sincere, they have been misinterpreting end time prophecy for over one-hundred years. And as a result, "My people perish for a lack of knowledge [or understanding]."


Since the late 19th century American Evangelicals have been preaching and teaching variations on what I call a "cold-war era" end time paradigm in my new book The Kingdom of the Antichrist which teaches that the Antichrist will come out of a quai-revised Roman Empire of Europe (the Eurpean Union), that the Antichrist himself will be of Jewish descent, and, through their feeble attempts at tracing the ancient migrations of either the Cimmerian or Scythian people, that the former Soviet Union (now that the Soviet Union is no more, the Russian state) is the land of Magog from which Gog will lead an invasion of the modern state of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39. And in extreme evangelical circles, that the Roman Catholic Church is "Mystery Babylon," the mystery religion of the Antichrist (Rev 17), and that the Roman Pontiff himself is the treaded False prophet (Rev 16:13, 19:20, 20:10). Moreover, in order to make their misinterpretations work, they have forced a pre-tribulation rapture into their paradigm, thus confusing Daniel's 70th Week (Dan 9:20-27) with the Great Tribulation Week (Matt 24).

All of the above has lead to confusion on the part of the Church, and as a result, as I state in my book, "the Church can no longer see the forrest for the errors."


There are many keys to properly interpreting end time prophecies, and I identify each of them in my new book. One, however, is of great importance, and that is properly identifying the fourth beast, or empire, of the book of Daniel (Dan 7). For this "beast," or empire will be The Kingdom of the Antichrist. A kingdom based on a "mystery religion" which will empower Gog to invade Israel in an attempt to annihilate the tiny Jewish state, then empower his successors, the False Prophet and the Antichrist to wage a war of Great Tribulation against the Church in an attempt to annihilate her as well.


Without going into detail here, I identify the fourth beast, or empire, of the book of Daniel as being none other than the Islamic Empire. Moreover, using the 'Biblical Principle of Nations" which I developed for my book, I also identify "the land of Magog" as being located in modern Turkey. As a result, Gog, then, must come out of modern Turkey.


With that being said, we have been following events in Syria and Turkey for several months now as we believe the civil war in Syria could break out into the region and, in doing so, engulf Israel and Turkey along with other surrounding states and, as a result, lead directly to the War of Gog and Magog - the next prophetic event in the prophetic time clock. If we are correct, then one must keep hi eye on the Turkish Presiden Erogan as a possible candidate for the fulfillment of the eschatological character known as Gog.


The following interview with Syrian President Assad was just published. It is of great interest for those of us who have been following the Syrian civil war for reasons I just stated. For those of us who are starved for information on the civil war which the media in the West seems to be overlooking, much can be gleamed from what President Assad has to say. However, it is of great interest in that President Assad speaks about how, in his opinion, Turkish President Erdogan is attempting to make himself Caliph of a united Islamic Empire. For it is only as caliph that Erdogan, or any other man, can be the eschatological character known as Gog, because Gog must be the sixth king of the fourth empire of the book of Daniel (Rev 17:10).


As we keep our eyes on events in and around Israel, Iran, Syria and Turkey, the question now becomes - Is the current Turkish President Erdogan the dreaded eschatological character known as Gog who, coming from the land of Magog (modern Turkey), will lead the Islamic Empire as its sixth caliph (Rev 17:10) in an invasion of the modern state of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel 38 and 39, the next prophetic event in the prophetic time clock, the infamous War of Gog and Magog?


AN INTERVIEW WITH SYRIAN PRESIDENT ASSAD


In an exclusive interview with RT, President Bashar Assad said that the conflict in Syria is not a civil war, but proxy terrorism by Syrians and foreign fighters. He also accused the Turkish PM of eyeing Syria with imperial ambitions.

Assad told RT that the West creates scapegoats as enemies – from communism, to Islam, to Saddam Hussein. He accused Western countries of aiming to turn him into their next enemy.

While mainstream media outlets generally report on the crisis as a battle between Assad and Syrian opposition groups, the president claims that his country has been infiltrated by numerous terrorist proxy groups fighting on behalf of other powers.


In the event of a foreign invasion of Syria, Assad warned, the fallout would be too dire for the world to bear.


‘My enemy is terrorism and instability in Syria’

RT: President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, thank very much for talking to us today.


Bashar Assad: You are most welcome in Damascus.


RT: There are many people who were convinced a year ago that you would not make it this far. Here again you are sitting in a newly renovated presidential palace and recording this interview. Who exactly is your enemy at this point?


BA: My enemy is terrorism and instability in Syria. This is our enemy in Syria. It is not about the people, it is not about persons. The whole issue is not about me staying or leaving. It is about the country being safe or not. So, this is the enemy we have been fighting as Syria.


RT: I have been here for the last two days and I had the chance to talk to a couple of people in Damascus. Some of them say that whether you stay or go at this point does not really matter anymore. What do you say about this?


BA: I think for the president to stay or leave is a popular issue. It is related to the opinion of some people and the only way can be done through the ballot boxes. So, it is not about what we hear. It is about what we can get through that box and that box will tell any president to stay or leave very simply.


RT: I think what they meant was that at this point you are not the target anymore; Syria is the target.


BA: I was not the target; I was not the problem anyway. The West creates enemies; in the past it was the communism then it became Islam, and then it became Saddam Hussein for a different reason. Now, they want to create a new enemy represented by Bashar. That's why they say that the problem is the president so he has to leave. That is why we have to focus of the real problem, not to waste our time listening to what they say.


‘The fight now is not the president’s fight – it is Syrians’ fight to defend their country’

RT: Do you personally still believe that you are the only man who can hold Syria together and the only man who can put an end to what the world calls a ‘civil war’?


BA: We have to look at it from two aspects. The first aspect is the constitution and I have my authority under the constitution. According to this authority and the constitution, I have to be able to solve the problem. But if we mean it that you do not have any other Syrian who can be a president, no, any Syrian could be a president. We have many Syrians who are eligible to be in that position. You cannot always link the whole country only to one person.


RT: But you are fighting for your country. Do you believe that you are the man who can put an end to the conflict and restore peace?


BA: I have to be the man who can do that and I hope so, but it is not about the power of the President; it is about the whole society. We have to be precise about this. The president cannot do anything without the institutions and without the support of the people. So, the fight now is not a President’s fight; it is Syrians’ fight. Every Syrian is involved in defending his country now.


RT: It is and a lot of civilians are dying as well in the fighting. So, if you were to win this war, how would you reconcile with your people after everything that has happened?


BA: Let’s be precise once again. The problem is not between me and the people; I do not have a problem with the people because the United States is against me and the West is against me and many other Arab countries, including Turkey which is not Arab of course, are against me. If the Syrian people are against me, how can I be here?!


‘Syria faces not a civil war, but terrorism by proxies’

RT: They are not against you?


BA: If the whole world, or let us say a big part of the world, including your people, are against you, are you a superman?! You are just a human being. So, this is not logical. It is not about reconciling with the people and it is not about reconciliation between the Syrians and the Syrians; we do not have a civil war. It is about terrorism and the support coming from abroad to terrorists to destabilize Syria. This is our war.


RT: Do you still not believe it is a civil war because I know there are a lot who think that there are terrorist acts which everyone believes take place in Syria, and there are also a lot of sectarian-based conflicts. For example we all heard about the mother who has two sons; one son is fighting for the government forces and the other son is fighting for the rebel forces, how this is not a civil war?


BA: You have divisions, but division does not mean civil war. It is completely different. Civil wars should be based on ethnic problems or sectarian problems. Sometimes you may have ethnic or sectarian tensions but this do not make them problem. So, if you have division in the same family or in a bigger tribe or whatever or in the same city, it does not mean a civil war. This is completely different and that is normal. We should expect that.


RT: When I asked about reconciling with your people, this is what I meant: I heard you say on many different occasions that the only thing you care about is what the Syrian people think of you and what Syrian people feel towards you and whether you should be a president or not. Are you not afraid that there has been so much damage done for whatever reason that at the end of the day Syrians won’t care about the truth; they will just blame you for the carnage that they have suffered?


BA: This is a hypothetical question because what the people think is the right thing, and regarding what they think, we have to ask them. But I don’t have this information right now. So, I am not afraid about what some people think; I am afraid about my country. We have to be focused on that.


RT: For years there have been so many stories about almighty Syrian army, important and strong Syrian secret services, but then we see that, you know, the government forces are not able to crush the enemy like people expected it would, and we see terrorist attacks take place in the middle of Damascus almost every day. Were those myths about the Syrian army and about the strong Syrian secret services?


BA: Usually, in normal circumstances when you have the army and the secret services and the intelligence, we focus on the external enemy even if we have an internal enemy, like terrorism because the society is helping us at least not to provide terrorist’s incubator. Now in this case, it is a new kind of war; terrorism through proxies, either Syrians living in Syria or foreign fighters coming from abroad. So, it is a new style of war, this is first and you have to adapt to this style and it takes time, it is not easy. And to say this is as easy as the normal or, let us say, the traditional or regular war, no, it is much more difficult. Second, the support that has been offered to those terrorists in every aspect, including armaments, money and political aspect is unprecedented. So, you have to expect that it is going to be a tough war and a difficult war. You do not expect a small country like Syria to defeat all those countries that have been fighting us through proxies just in days or weeks.


RT: Yes, but when you look at it, I mean on one hand, you have one leader with an army, and he orders this army go straight, go left, go right and the army obeys. On the other hand, you have fractions of terrorists who are not unified and have no one unified strategy to fight you. So, how does that really happen when it comes to fighting each other?


BA: This is not the problem. The problem is that those terrorists are fighting from within the cities, and in the cities you have civilians. When you fight this kind of terrorists, you have to be aware that you should do the minimum damage to the infrastructure and minimum damage to the civilians because you have civilians and you have to fight, you cannot leave terrorists just killing and destroying. So, this is the difficulty in this kind of war.



Without foreign rebel fighters and smuggled weapons, ‘we could finish everything in weeks’

RT: You know that the infrastructure and economy are suffering; it is almost as if Syria is going to be fall into decay very soon and the time is against you. In your opinion, how much time do you need to crush the enemy?


BA: You cannot answer this question because no one claimed that he had the answer about when to end the war unless when we have the answer to when they are going to stop smuggling foreign fighters from different parts of the world especially the Middle East and the Islamic world, and when they are going to stop sending armaments to those terrorists. If they stop, this is when I can answer you; I can tell that in weeks we can finish everything. This is not a big problem. But as long as you have continuous supply in terrorists, armaments, logistics and everything else, it is going to be a long-term war.


RT: Also, when you think about it, you have 4,000 km of loosely controlled borders, so you have your enemy that can at any time cross over into Jordan or Turkey to be rearmed, get medical care and come back to fight you!


BA: No country in the world can seal the border. Sometime they use this word which is not correct, even the United Stated cannot seal its border with Mexico for example. The same can be applied to Russia which is a big country. So, no country can seal the border. You can only have a better situation on the border when you have good relations with your neighbor and this is something we do not have at least with Turkey now. Turkey supports more than any other country the smuggling of terrorists and armaments.



‘The Syrian Army has no orders to shell Turkish land’

RT: Can I say to you something? I have been in Turkey recently and people there are actually very worried that a war will happen between Syria and Turkey. Do you think a war with Turkey is a realistic scenario?


BA: Rationally, no I do not think so – for two reasons. The war needs public support and the majority of the Turkish people do not need this war. So, I do not think any rational official would think of going against the will of the public in his country and the same for the Syrian people. So, the conflict or difference is not between the Turkish people and the Syrian people; it is about the government and officials, it is between our officials and their officials because of their politics. So, I do not see any war between Syria and Turkey on the horizon.


RT: When was the last time you spoke to Erdogan and how did the talk end?


BA: May 2011, after he won the election.


RT: So, you just congratulated him, and it was the last time


BA: Yes and it was the last time.


RT: Who is shelling Turkey? Is it the government forces or the rebels?


BA: In order to find the answer, you need a joint committee between the two armies in order to know who shells who because on the borders you have a lot of terrorists who have mortars; so, they can do the same. You have to go and investigate the bomb in that place itself and that did not happen. We asked the Turkish government to have this committee but they refused; so, you cannot have the answer. But when you have these terrorists on your borders, you do not exclude them from doing so because the Syrian army does not have any order to shell the Turkish land because we do not find any interest in this, and we do not have any enmity with the Turkish people. We consider them as brothers, so why do it; unless that happened by mistake, then it needs investigation.


RT: Do you accept that it may be mistakenly from the government forces?


BA: That could happen. This is a possibility and in every war you have mistakes. You know in Afghanistan, they always talk about friendly fire if you kill your soldier; this means that it could happen in every war, but we cannot say yes.



‘Erdogan thinks he is a Caliph’

RT: Why has Turkey, which you call a friendly nation, become a foothold for the opposition?


BA: Not Turkey, but only Erdogan’s government in order to be precise. Turkish people need good relations with the Syrian people. Erdogan thinks that if Muslim Brotherhood takes over in the region and especially in Syria, he can guarantee his political future, this is one reason. The other reason, he personally thinks that he is the new sultan of the Ottoman and he can control the region as it was during the Ottoman Empire under a new umbrella. In his heart he thinks he is a caliph. These are the main two reasons for him to shift his policy from zero problems to zero friends.


RT: But it is not just the West that opposes you at this point; there are so many enemies in the Arab world and that is to say like two years ago when someone heard you name in the Arab world they would straighten their ties, and now in the first occasion they betrayed you, why do you have so many enemies in the Arab world?


BA: They are not enemies. The majority of Arab governments support Syria in their heart but they do not dare to say that explicitly.


RT: Why not?


BA: Under pressure by the West, and sometimes under pressure of the petrodollars in the Arab world.


RT: Who supports you from the Arab world?


BA: Many countries support Syria by their hearts but they do not dare to say that explicitly. First of all, Iraq which played a very active role in supporting Syria during the crisis because it is a neighboring country and they understand and recognize that if you have a war inside Syria you will have war in the neighboring countries including Iraq. I think there are other countries which have good position like Algeria, and Oman mainly and there are other countries I would not count all of them now but I would say they have positive position without taking actions.


RT: Saudi Arabia and Qatar, why are they so adamant about you resigning and how would an unstable Middle East fit their agenda?


BA: Let’s be frank, I cannot answer on their behalf. They have to answer this question but I could say that the problem between Syria and many countries whether in the Arab world or in the region or in the West, is that we kept saying no when we think that we have to say no, that is the problem. And some countries believe that they can control Syria through orders, through money or petrodollars and this is impossible in Syria, this is the problem. May be they want to play a role. We do not have a problem, they can play a role whether they deserve this or not, they can play a role but not to play a role at the expense of our interests.


RT: Is it about controlling Syria or about exporting their vision of Islam to Syria?


BA: You cannot put it as a government policy sometimes. Sometimes you have institutions in certain country, sometime you have persons who try to promote this but they do not announce it as an official policy. So, they did not ask us to promote their, let’s say, extremist attitude of their institutions but that happened in reality whether through indirect support of their government or through the foundation from institutions and personnel. So, this is part of the problem, but when I want to talk as a government, I have to talk about the announced policy. The announced policy is like any other policy; it is about the interest, it is about playing a role, but we cannot ignore what you mentioned.


RT: Iran which is a very close ally also is exposed to economic sanctions, also facing a threat of military invasion. If you were faced with an option to cut ties with Iran in exchange for peace in your country, would you go for it?


BA: We do not have contradicting options in this regard because we had good relations with Iran since 1979 till today, and it is getting better every day, but at the same time we are moving towards peace. We had peace process and we had peace negotiations. Iran was not a factor against peace. So, this is misinformation they try to promote in the West that if we need peace, we do not have to have good relation with Iran. There is no relation; it is two completely different subjects. Iran supported Syria, supported our cause, the cause of the occupied land and we have to support them in their cause. This is very simple. Iran is a very important country in the region. If we are looking for stability, we need good relations with Iran. You cannot talk about stability while you have bad relations with Iran, Turkey and your neighbors and so on. This is it.



‘Al-Qaeda’s final aim is an Islamic emirate in Syria’

RT: Do you have any information that the Western intelligence is financing rebel fighters here in Syria?


BA: No, so far what we know is that they are offering the know-how support for the terrorists through Turkey and sometimes through Lebanon mainly. But there is other intelligence, not the Western, but the regional intelligence which is very active and more active than the Western one under the supervision of the Western intelligence.


RT: What is the role of Al-Qaeda in Syria at this point? Are they controlling any of the rebel coalition forces?


BA: No, I do not think they are looking to control; they are looking to create their own kingdoms or emirates in their language, but they mainly try now to scare the people through explosions, assassinations, suicide bombers and things like this to push the people towards desperation and to accept them as reality. So, they go step by step but their final aim is to have this, let’s say, Islamic Emirate in Syria where they can promote their own ideology in the rest of the world.


RT: From those who are fighting you and those who are against you, who would you talk to?


BA: We talk to anyone who has genuine will to help Syria, but we do not waste our time with anyone who wants to use our crisis for his own personal interests.


RT: There has been many times…not you but the government forces have been accused for many times of war crimes against your own civilians, do you accept that the government forces have committed war crimes against their own civilians?


BA: We are fighting terrorism. We are implementing our constitution by protecting the Syrian people. Let’s go back to what happened in Russia more than a decade ago when you faced terrorism in Chechnya and other places; they attacked people in theaters and schools and so on, and the army in Russia protected the people, would you call it war crimes?! No, you would not. Two days ago, Amnesty International recognized the crimes that were committed few days ago by the armed groups when they captured soldiers and executed them. Also Human Rights Watch recognized this. Human Rights Watch recognized more than once the crimes of those terrorist groups and few days ago it described these crimes as war crimes, this is the first point. The second point, if you have an army that committed a crime against its own people, this is devoid of logic because the Syrian Army is made up of Syrian people. If you want to commit a crime against your people, then the army will divide, will disintegrate. So, you cannot have a strong army while you are killing your people. Third, the army cannot withstand for twenty months in these difficult circumstances without having the embrace of the public in Syria. So, how could you have this embracement while you are killing your people?! This is a contradiction. So, this is the answer. ‘I must live in Syria and die in Syria’


RT: When was the last time you spoke to a Western leader?


BA: It was before the crisis.


RT: Was there any time at which they try to give you conditions that if you left the post of presidency then there will be peace in Syria or no?


BA: No, they did not propose it directly, no, but whether they propose that directly or indirectly, it is a matter of sovereignty; only the Syrian people will talk about this. Whoever talks about this in the media or in a statement directly or indirectly has no meaning and has no weight in Syria.


RT: Do you even have a choice because from what it seems from the outside that would not have anywhere to go. Where would you go if you want to leave?


BA: To Syria. I would go from Syria to Syria. This is the only place where we can live. I am not a puppet. I was not made by the West to go to the West or to any other country. I am Syrian, I was made in Syria, I have to live in Syria and die in Syria.


‘I believe in democracy and dialogue – but we must be realistic’

RT: Do you think that at this point there is any chance for diplomacy or talks or only the army can get it done?


BA: I always believe in diplomacy and I always believe in dialogue even with those who do not understand or believe in it. We have to keep trying. I think that we will always achieve a partial success. We have to look for this partial success before we achieve the complete success. But we have to be realistic. You do not think that only dialogue can make you achieve something because those people who committed these acts they are of two kinds: one of them does not believe in dialogue, especially the extremists, and you have the outlaws who have been convicted by the court years ago before the crisis and their natural enemy is the government because they are going to be detained if we have a normal situation in Syria. The other part of them is the people who have been supplied by the outside, and they can only be committed to the governments which paid them the money and supplied them with the armament; they do not have a choice because they do not own their own decision. So, you have to be realistic. And you have the third part of the people whether militants or politicians who can accept the dialogue. That’s why we have been in this dialogue for months now even with militants and many of them gave up their armaments and they went back to their normal life.

‘The price of a foreign invasion will be more than the world can afford’

RT: Do you think a foreign invasion is imminent?


BA: I think the price of this invasion if it happened is going to be more than the whole world can afford because if you have a problem in Syria, and we are the last stronghold of secularism and stability in the region and coexistence, let’s say, it will have a domino effect that will affect the world from the Atlantic to the Pacific and you know the implication on the rest of the world. I do not think the West is going in that direction, but if they do so, nobody can tell what is next.


RT: Mr. President, do you blame yourself for anything?


BA: Normally you have to find mistakes you do with every decision, otherwise you are not human.


RT: What is your biggest mistake?


BA: I do not remember now to be frank. But I always, even before taking the decision, consider that part of it will be wrong but you cannot tell about your mistakes now. Sometimes, especially during crisis, you do not see what is right and what is wrong until you overcome the situation that you are in. I would not be objective to talk about mistakes now because we still in the middle of the crisis.


RT: So, you do not have regrets yet?


BA: Not now. When everything is clear, you can talk about your mistakes, and definitely you have mistakes and that is normal.


RT: If today was March 15, 2011, that is when the protest started to escalate and grow, what would you do differently?


BA: I would do what I did on March 15.


RT: Exactly the same?


BA: Exactly the same: ask different parties to have dialogue and stand against terrorists because that is how it started. It did not start as marches; the umbrella or cover was the marches, but within those marches you had militants who started shooting civilians and the army at the same time. May be on the tactical level, you could have done something different but as a president you are not tactical, you always take the decision on a strategic level which is something different.


RT: President al-Assad, how do you see yourself in ten-years’ time?


BA: I see myself through my country; I cannot see myself but my country in ten-years’ time. This is where I can see myself.


RT: Do you see yourself in Syria?


BA: Definitely, I have to be in Syria. It is not about the position. I do not see myself whether a president or not. This is not my interest. I can see myself in this country as safe country, stable country and more prosperous country.


RT: President Bashar al-Assad of Syria, thank you for talking to RT.


BA: Thank you for coming to Syria, again.


Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist
 

dismas

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Another "Islamic Antichrist" purveyor.... If I want to know about an "Islamic antichrist", I'll listen to that idiot Glenn Beck. At least he's free.

God's truth doesn't need a propaganda machine to back it up.
 

veteran

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BA: I was not the target; I was not the problem anyway. The West creates enemies; in the past it was the communism then it became Islam, and then it became Saddam Hussein for a different reason. Now, they want to create a new enemy represented by Bashar. That's why they say that the problem is the president so he has to leave. That is why we have to focus of the real problem, not to waste our time listening to what they say.

Really? Then why is it that Syria has since long ago accepted Communist Russia's supporting of military advisors and weaponry, with Russia sending its navy to Syrian ports back when radical terrorists in Lebanon attacked Israel a few years ago with Israel going into Lebanon?

The Syrian president wouldn't even agree to a public interview unless his propaganda against the West benefited.
 

Richard Neal

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Another "Islamic Antichrist" purveyor.... If I want to know about an "Islamic antichrist", I'll listen to that idiot Glenn Beck. At least he's free.

God's truth doesn't need a propaganda machine to back it up.

Dude, your statement wreaks of contempt - and I have no idea why?...Glenn Beck, even though he is a Mormon, follows the teaching of Joel Rosenburg who teaches that the Islamic eschatological figure known as the 12th Iman, or al-Mahdi is the Antichrist. In my new book Kingdom of the Antichrist I argue that al-Mahdi is, in fact, the False Prophet and that the Islamic eschatological figure known as the man "Jesus, son of Mary" will be the Antichrist." And to prove my point I use history to show Islam is nothing more than another Gnostic sect or movement. Gnosticism, as you know, has been the archenemy of orthodox Christianity since the Apostolic era? If, then, one knows and understands what Gnosticism is and what the various schools of Gnostic thought taught, one can easily see that Muhammad was a Gnostic who learned from the Gnostic sect of Arabia known as the Hanif. Once we understand what Gnosticism is, and their teachings about Jesus Christ, then we can quickly understand why the Apostles and the Church Fathers went to war with them - intellectually speaking. And why the Gnostic belief and teachings regarding the man Jesus, son of Mary, will lead to and empower the Antichrist...Rather than showing contempt for another's belief, you would benefit yourself and the Church more if you would simply lay out you beliefs in a "meek and loving" way and, together, all of us can discuss the various views and, hopefully, come to an agreement as we, as a Church, prepare for the appearance of the Antichrist very soon...
 

veteran

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dismas is right, just another "Islamic Antichrist" "purveyor" doctrine originating from the Jews.

The real origin of Gnosticism comes from the "synagogue of Satan", the group of false Jews that my Lord Jesus Christ pointed to in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9.

What's the origin of those false Jews that Christ pointed to? God's Word reveals it, and it's the subject of the "mystery of iniquity" that Apostle Paul proclaimed in 2 Thess.2. It's about the concept of false religious idol worship that first began in ancient Sumer which later became Babylon. That's where ancient Baalism started, and all the later religious ideas of the "mystery schools" of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, and Rome was derived.

By the time God led the children of Israel out of Egypt, the pagan mysteries was already well established in the holy lands by those of the Canaanites. Their evil practices of Baal worship involved child sacrifices, fornication, religious sexual fertility rites, homosexualism, use of drugs, marks on the body, cutting oneself as a religious practice, ritual murders, basically... you name it, they were guilty of it. God gave those Canaanite nations space of 400 years to repent; they did not, so He commanded Israel to destroy them all and not leave alive anything that breatheth (Deut.20).

Israel failed in carrying out God's command to destroy those Canaanite peoples (Judges 2 & 3). So He said He would leave those pagans to test Israel with.

So they began creeping in among Israel (Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 2 as priests and Nethinims). And when the "house of Judah" went captive to Babylon for 70 years, those pagans went captive with Judah. Judah's usage of Hebrew changed during that captivity, the creation of a set of combined Jewish-pagan philosophical writings came about by that captivity, called the Babylonian Talmud, which contains false doctrines that orthodox Jews still follow today which goes against much of God's Word, (which is why our Lord Jesus forewarned about their leaven doctrines of men).

This is why the orthodox Jews also have a mystical occultic group of studies called the Kabbalah within their doctrines. It's from the old pagan doctrines of the Canaanites of Baal. In 7th century Spain, they began to put a lot of that Kabbalistic oral tradition into writing, which caused much of the occult ceremonial and black magic practices of old Europe, causing the Church to do a cleansing in old Europe of those practices. This is why the remnants of those false Jews still hate the Roman Church today, not true Jews that seek our Heavenly Father, but false Jews, the "synagogue of Satan" that crept in among Judah in OT history.

They're the ones still causing all the major problems in all nations on earth today. Problem is they are deeply rooted in secrecy through their various secret societies and occult fraternities, both in the West and in the East. These are the "tares" our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 13. And they won't be cast out away from God's people until Christ returns as per the end of Zechariah 14.
 

Richard Neal

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dismas is right, just another "Islamic Antichrist" "purveyor" doctrine originating from the Jews.

The real origin of Gnosticism comes from the "synagogue of Satan", the group of false Jews that my Lord Jesus Christ pointed to in Rev.2:9 and Rev.3:9.

What's the origin of those false Jews that Christ pointed to? God's Word reveals it, and it's the subject of the "mystery of iniquity" that Apostle Paul proclaimed in 2 Thess.2. It's about the concept of false religious idol worship that first began in ancient Sumer which later became Babylon. That's where ancient Baalism started, and all the later religious ideas of the "mystery schools" of ancient Babylon, Egypt, Greece, and Rome was derived.

By the time God led the children of Israel out of Egypt, the pagan mysteries was already well established in the holy lands by those of the Canaanites. Their evil practices of Baal worship involved child sacrifices, fornication, religious sexual fertility rites, homosexualism, use of drugs, marks on the body, cutting oneself as a religious practice, ritual murders, basically... you name it, they were guilty of it. God gave those Canaanite nations space of 400 years to repent; they did not, so He commanded Israel to destroy them all and not leave alive anything that breatheth (Deut.20).

Israel failed in carrying out God's command to destroy those Canaanite peoples (Judges 2 & 3). So He said He would leave those pagans to test Israel with.

So they began creeping in among Israel (Joshua 9; 1 Kings 9; Ezra 2 as priests and Nethinims). And when the "house of Judah" went captive to Babylon for 70 years, those pagans went captive with Judah. Judah's usage of Hebrew changed during that captivity, the creation of a set of combined Jewish-pagan philosophical writings came about by that captivity, called the Babylonian Talmud, which contains false doctrines that orthodox Jews still follow today which goes against much of God's Word, (which is why our Lord Jesus forewarned about their leaven doctrines of men).

This is why the orthodox Jews also have a mystical occultic group of studies called the Kabbalah within their doctrines. It's from the old pagan doctrines of the Canaanites of Baal. In 7th century Spain, they began to put a lot of that Kabbalistic oral tradition into writing, which caused much of the occult ceremonial and black magic practices of old Europe, causing the Church to do a cleansing in old Europe of those practices. This is why the remnants of those false Jews still hate the Roman Church today, not true Jews that seek our Heavenly Father, but false Jews, the "synagogue of Satan" that crept in among Judah in OT history.

They're the ones still causing all the major problems in all nations on earth today. Problem is they are deeply rooted in secrecy through their various secret societies and occult fraternities, both in the West and in the East. These are the "tares" our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matthew 13. And they won't be cast out away from God's people until Christ returns as per the end of Zechariah 14.

As any true historian knows the origin of Gnosticism can be found in two separate movements - one with in the Church and one from without. Both movements originated at the same time, early in the Apostolic era. The first, a "Hellenized Gnosticism" which originated outside the was began by Simon Magus. The second, a "Judaizing Gnosticism" originated within the Church with the Jewish-Pharisaic Christians Paul called "the Judaizers." Later this Jewish-Christian form of Gnosticism would be known as Ebionite Gnosticism.

Again, your lack of understanding is remarkable, especially when you try to continuously pass it off for knowledge - as if you really know what you are talking about. Pray, my friend, that you never mislead any Christian or want-to-be Christian with your poor teachings...
 

veteran

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As any true historian knows the origin of Gnosticism can be found in two separate movements - one with in the Church and one from without. Both movements originated at the same time, early in the Apostolic era. The first, a "Hellenized Gnosticism" which originated outside the was began by Simon Magus. The second, a "Judaizing Gnosticism" originated within the Church with the Jewish-Pharisaic Christians Paul called "the Judaizers." Later this Jewish-Christian form of Gnosticism would be known as Ebionite Gnosticism.

Again, your lack of understanding is remarkable, especially when you try to continuously pass it off for knowledge - as if you really know what you are talking about. Pray, my friend, that you never mislead any Christian or want-to-be Christian with your poor teachings...

The origin of Gnosticism is derived from the origins of their beliefs from ancient pagan culture. Neoplatonism was one of the pagan Greek systems of philosophy connected with Gnosticism.

And where did Plato get a lot of his ideas from in ancient Greece? From Egyptian paganism mainly, and from other areas of the ancient arcana of esotericism, like Jewish mystics. Greece had a group very similar to the Essenes that dwelt in the holy land, they were called something like Theraputea (healers, which is what the Essenes were).

Do a bit of research on the subject of The Mysteries involving pagan initiatory rites in ancient times and get up to date about the early origins of Gnosticism.



For others that want to really know the gist of what Gnosticism is about, here it is:

The word Gnosticism is from the Greek word 'gnosis' which means 'to know'. It was used by the Gnostics to represent the difference between 'knowing' spiritual truths through 'direct experience' vs. a faith based religious belief. This is how the Gnostic movement has its origins with the ancient occult esoteric arcana of the ancient "mystery schools" of pagan religion. It represents a set of applied mystical knowledge, forbidden knowledge, ideas, methods, rites, etc., that transcend this world that delve into the spirit world.

A Christian believes Heaven exists by Faith, the Gnostic tries to 'experience' Heaven through direct knowledge and application of forbidden sciences like occult magic, which means trying to go around our Heavenly Father's back door.

And since we're on the subject of Simon Magus, the word Magus comes from ancient times as 'magi'. It is associated with the idea of the occult arts of magic in ancient Persia, ancient Graeco-Roman culture, from ancient Chinese culture, in ancient Arabic sources, i.e., basically the whole of ancient arcana of the practice of the magic arts. And I don't mean stage magicians like David Copperfield, but sorcerers, witches, mystics, occult initiates, the subject of the ancient "mystery schools" of pagandom.

The ancient pagans made a 'religion' out of the practice of the occult arts. Its whole purpose was to violate the boundaries for man that God set in place for this world. It's ultimate origin is with the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' directly from the Devil himself. It's that kind of CONFUSION that God's people have been continually at spiritual war against since Adam and Eve in God's Garden. It's goal is to try and attain to a fake copy of The Tree of Life to gain immortality. The pagans had various names for it, like the Philosopher's Stone, The Fountain of Youth, the Elixir of Life, the Cintamani of Buddhists and Hindus, the lapis occultus, Antimonium, etc.

All they had to do was to leave... those mysterious practices of the black arts of occult magic and instead believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ to be given Eternal Life through Him. But no, they'd rather make of theirselves something they are not and can never be, God Himself. That's why pagan culture is a dead end through a continuous winding road that never stops, a maze if you will. God has assigned them into 'confusion' of a maze from which they cannot escape.
 

Richard Neal

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The origin of Gnosticism is derived from the origins of their beliefs from ancient pagan culture. Neoplatonism was one of the pagan Greek systems of philosophy connected with Gnosticism.

And where did Plato get a lot of his ideas from in ancient Greece? From Egyptian paganism mainly, and from other areas of the ancient arcana of esotericism, like Jewish mystics. Greece had a group very similar to the Essenes that dwelt in the holy land, they were called something like Theraputea (healers, which is what the Essenes were).

Do a bit of research on the subject of The Mysteries involving pagan initiatory rites in ancient times and get up to date about the early origins of Gnosticism.



For others that want to really know the gist of what Gnosticism is about, here it is:

The word Gnosticism is from the Greek word 'gnosis' which means 'to know'. It was used by the Gnostics to represent the difference between 'knowing' spiritual truths through 'direct experience' vs. a faith based religious belief. This is how the Gnostic movement has its origins with the ancient occult esoteric arcana of the ancient "mystery schools" of pagan religion. It represents a set of applied mystical knowledge, forbidden knowledge, ideas, methods, rites, etc., that transcend this world that delve into the spirit world.

A Christian believes Heaven exists by Faith, the Gnostic tries to 'experience' Heaven through direct knowledge and application of forbidden sciences like occult magic, which means trying to go around our Heavenly Father's back door.

And since we're on the subject of Simon Magus, the word Magus comes from ancient times as 'magi'. It is associated with the idea of the occult arts of magic in ancient Persia, ancient Graeco-Roman culture, from ancient Chinese culture, in ancient Arabic sources, i.e., basically the whole of ancient arcana of the practice of the magic arts. And I don't mean stage magicians like David Copperfield, but sorcerers, witches, mystics, occult initiates, the subject of the ancient "mystery schools" of pagandom.

The ancient pagans made a 'religion' out of the practice of the occult arts. Its whole purpose was to violate the boundaries for man that God set in place for this world. It's ultimate origin is with the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' directly from the Devil himself. It's that kind of CONFUSION that God's people have been continually at spiritual war against since Adam and Eve in God's Garden. It's goal is to try and attain to a fake copy of The Tree of Life to gain immortality. The pagans had various names for it, like the Philosopher's Stone, The Fountain of Youth, the Elixir of Life, the Cintamani of Buddhists and Hindus, the lapis occultus, Antimonium, etc.

All they had to do was to leave... those mysterious practices of the black arts of occult magic and instead believe on The Saviour Jesus Christ to be given Eternal Life through Him. But no, they'd rather make of theirselves something they are not and can never be, God Himself. That's why pagan culture is a dead end through a continuous winding road that never stops, a maze if you will. God has assigned them into 'confusion' of a maze from which they cannot escape.

Because you obviously do not know: "Hellenized Gnosticism" borrows various beliefs, rituals and practices from various Greek religions and mixes them with various beliefs, rituals and practices of ancient Christianity. Now, there were many "schools" of Hellenized Gnosticism depending on the "Super Apostle," as Paul sarcastically refers to them (2nd Cor 11:5). "Ebonite Gnosticism" follows the same model Hellenized Gnosticism takes, except the Ebonite's took various beliefs, rituals and practices from Mosaic Judaism and mixed them with various beliefs, rituals and practices of the early Church. Again, there were various Ebonite Gnostics depending the teaching of any one particular teacher or "super apostle."

Six-hundred years later Muhammad learned of the Gnostic model from the Gnostic sect known as the Hanif of Mecca. After studying with them for sixteen years, Muhammad started his own Gnostic religion - Islam, which he modeled from the Ebonite Gnosticism of the Gnostic Jews of Arabia...Once the rabbis and Gnostic Ebonite Christians rejected him, Muhammad turned on them and, as a result, 1400 years later muslims are still attempting to kill the Jew as various late Suras in the Koran command they do....

Again, paganism was never the great threat to Christianity that you and other like-minded people try to make it...By the time of Christ paganism was virtually dead as it promised nothing more than "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we surely die." Consequently, orthodox Christianity conquered paganism and the Roman Empire within 250 years of the death of Christ without ever drawing a sword. Yet Gnosticism, both Hellenized Gnosticism and Ebonite Gnosticism continued, and, in various forms, are with us today i.e., Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, etc...It was the various forms of Gnosticism that Paul railed against in his epistles, as did John in his gospel and pastoral letters. One can not even understand large segments of the New Testament without a working knowledge of Gnosticism - which, in part, explains your problem...Read the Church Fathers; they rarely speak of paganism, but wrote complete works against Gnosticism...Learn your Church history sir, learn about Gnosticism, then open your Bible and you will be amazed at what you'll see anew....
 

veteran

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Richard Neal said:
Because you obviously do not know: "Hellenized Gnosticism" borrows various beliefs, rituals and practices from various Greek religions and mixes them with various beliefs, rituals and practices of ancient Christianity. Now, there were many "schools" of Hellenized Gnosticism depending on the "Super Apostle," as Paul sarcastically refers to them (2nd Cor 11:5). "Ebonite Gnosticism" follows the same model Hellenized Gnosticism takes, except the Ebonite's took various beliefs, rituals and practices from Mosaic Judaism and mixed them with various beliefs, rituals and practices of the early Church. Again, there were various Ebonite Gnostics depending the teaching of any one particular teacher or "super apostle."

Six-hundred years later Muhammad learned of the Gnostic model from the Gnostic sect known as the Hanif of Mecca. After studying with them for sixteen years, Muhammad started his own Gnostic religion - Islam, which he modeled from the Ebonite Gnosticism of the Gnostic Jews of Arabia...Once the rabbis and Gnostic Ebonite Christians rejected him, Muhammad turned on them and, as a result, 1400 years later muslims are still attempting to kill the Jew as various late Suras in the Koran command they do....

Again, paganism was never the great threat to Christianity that you and other like-minded people try to make it...By the time of Christ paganism was virtually dead as it promised nothing more than "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we surely die." Consequently, orthodox Christianity conquered paganism and the Roman Empire within 250 years of the death of Christ without ever drawing a sword. Yet Gnosticism, both Hellenized Gnosticism and Ebonite Gnosticism continued, and, in various forms, are with us today i.e., Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Islam, etc...It was the various forms of Gnosticism that Paul railed against in his epistles, as did John in his gospel and pastoral letters. One can not even understand large segments of the New Testament without a working knowledge of Gnosticism - which, in part, explains your problem...Read the Church Fathers; they rarely speak of paganism, but wrote complete works against Gnosticism...Learn your Church history sir, learn about Gnosticism, then open your Bible and you will be amazed at what you'll see anew....
What I covered goes way beyond... what you call simple Church history.

And you're inferrence that paganism died with Christianity is a show of ignorance also.
 

Richard Neal

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veteran said:
What I covered goes way beyond... what you call simple Church history.

And you're inferrence that paganism died with Christianity is a show of ignorance also.
Dude, I've been called a lot of things - but ignorance has never been one. So this is a first for me...Your lack of meekness and sincere love for a fellow Christian simply trying to understand complex issues (eschatology) causes one to question the sincerity of your faith - But I'll leave that to God to judge....I tried to be kind in my critique of your understanding of Gnosticism, because it is obviously rudimentary at best...Your understanding of Church history, which you claim to have "gone way beyond" in a mere nine paragraph statement is as ridiculous as it is arrogant...It is difficult at best to teach an arrogant man new truths, since he has already convinced himself that he knows it all...So there is little I can offer you beyond my sincere prayers that you may, one day, be allowed to understand the mysteries that are end time prophecies...
 

veteran

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Richard Neal said:
Dude, I've been called a lot of things - but ignorance has never been one. So this is a first for me...Your lack of meekness and sincere love for a fellow Christian simply trying to understand complex issues (eschatology) causes one to question the sincerity of your faith - But I'll leave that to God to judge....I tried to be kind in my critique of your understanding of Gnosticism, because it is obviously rudimentary at best...Your understanding of Church history, which you claim to have "gone way beyond" in a mere nine paragraph statement is as ridiculous as it is arrogant...It is difficult at best to teach an arrogant man new truths, since he has already convinced himself that he knows it all...So there is little I can offer you beyond my sincere prayers that you may, one day, be allowed to understand the mysteries that are end time prophecies...
You're puffed up, obviously think of yourself as more than you actually are.

Making such statements like paganism was virtually dead by the time Christ came is... a huge show of ignorance. For you, that actually might have been a good thing in a sense, because it could be that you've been blessed to not have to see the blatant pagan ideas and doctrines being pushed in today's society and especially upon many Churches. On the other hand, you're being ignorant of its modernist workings could mean you're in direct danger to it, because of your eyes being closed to it (which is the very case with many leaders in the Church today).

My explanation sounds ridiculous to you because you've failed to understand the actual origin of paganism which began long before the 1st-2nd century Gnostic movement even began. If you can't trace it all the way back to what happened in God's Garden and Cain, then you truly must not have a clue.
 

tgwprophet

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Well i know at least 2 pagan witches and can name them, so pagans are alive and well even in USA. I also know of an entire motorcycle gang called pagans and they think they are true pagans, but since I never sat through one of their rituals I cannot say for certain they fit it.

Actually it really amazes me many of these religions such as Islam, Pagans, Hindus atheists and such can even exist as the base can so easily be destroyed unless they refuse the debate and ignore any tests. Kind of like what happens in this forum when I inject a reasoning that one cannot get around... they ignore it and continue by opening a different issue.

Richard, Veteran is often times, vealous and sometimes more than that, but being vealous back will not win the day. Many religions fluxuated in their acceptance and attendance whether it went up or receeded almost to obscurity at different times and for many reasons... why should that be an issue here?
 

Richard Neal

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veteran said:
You're puffed up, obviously think of yourself as more than you actually are.

Making such statements like paganism was virtually dead by the time Christ came is... a huge show of ignorance. For you, that actually might have been a good thing in a sense, because it could be that you've been blessed to not have to see the blatant pagan ideas and doctrines being pushed in today's society and especially upon many Churches. On the other hand, you're being ignorant of its modernist workings could mean you're in direct danger to it, because of your eyes being closed to it (which is the very case with many leaders in the Church today).

My explanation sounds ridiculous to you because you've failed to understand the actual origin of paganism which began long before the 1st-2nd century Gnostic movement even began. If you can't trace it all the way back to what happened in God's Garden and Cain, then you truly must not have a clue.
Veteran, you always want to argue - rather than to have an educated conversation...Paganism died in the 1st century A.D., in fact it began to die long before Jesus Christ appeared on the world scene...Nevertheless, yes, you are right, paganism is still with us in various minimal ways and many of its rituals are still alive, some are even practiced within the Church...As yes, there are still a few pagans running around worshiping trees and fairies, etc. But what I meant when I said 'paganism is dead" - and I assumed this was obvious to any thinking man - is that there are no pagan priests, temples or governments under pagan control as there was prior to the coming of Jesus Christ and His Church...All the great monuments of paganism throughout Greece and Rome are just that - monuments. The great priesthoods, the great temples and mythologies are all relicts of history...The Druids are lost to history now, the great pagan priests of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Rome - are all lost to ancient history...Again, you are right - there is a Pagan motorcycle gang, and there are people out there who cling to some variation of what they believe paganism looked like, but for all intents and purposes, paganism died at the hands of something far superior - Christianity...
 

veteran

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Richard Neal said:
Veteran, you always want to argue - rather than to have an educated conversation...Paganism died in the 1st century A.D., in fact it began to die long before Jesus Christ appeared on the world scene...Nevertheless, yes, you are right, paganism is still with us in various minimal ways and many of its rituals are still alive, some are even practiced within the Church...As yes, there are still a few pagans running around worshiping trees and fairies, etc. But what I meant when I said 'paganism is dead" - and I assumed this was obvious to any thinking man - is that there are no pagan priests, temples or governments under pagan control as there was prior to the coming of Jesus Christ and His Church...All the great monuments of paganism throughout Greece and Rome are just that - monuments. The great priesthoods, the great temples and mythologies are all relicts of history...The Druids are lost to history now, the great pagan priests of ancient Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Rome - are all lost to ancient history...Again, you are right - there is a Pagan motorcycle gang, and there are people out there who cling to some variation of what they believe paganism looked like, but for all intents and purposes, paganism died at the hands of something far superior - Christianity...
I'm not looking to argue. I'm a realist, and that includes pointing out things to those like yourself who assume to be something more than they are.


The paganism that the western European nations were following PRIOR to Christ's coming and preaching of The Gospel is the western pagan history YOU are talking about. The majority of the western nations turned to Christ Jesus. That did NOT end the pagan existence and influence in the West though.

All one need do is say Masonic brotherhood, Weishaupt's 18th century Bavarian Illuminati, the varioius occult fraternites that were planted in places like Chicago and California in the early 20th century like the Rosicrucian Order, Theosophy from Britain, Heremetic Order of The Golden Dawn, the Pythagorean Order from Italy, and there are many, many... more that STILL exist today!

So the more you rage about this, it's either out of total ignorance about such modern movements, or it makes me to think that YOU might be a member of one of those groups of secret societies today.
 

Richard Neal

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veteran said:
I'm not looking to argue. I'm a realist, and that includes pointing out things to those like yourself who assume to be something more than they are.


The paganism that the western European nations were following PRIOR to Christ's coming and preaching of The Gospel is the western pagan history YOU are talking about. The majority of the western nations turned to Christ Jesus. That did NOT end the pagan existence and influence in the West though.

All one need do is say Masonic brotherhood, Weishaupt's 18th century Bavarian Illuminati, the varioius occult fraternites that were planted in places like Chicago and California in the early 20th century like the Rosicrucian Order, Theosophy from Britain, Heremetic Order of The Golden Dawn, the Pythagorean Order from Italy, and there are many, many... more that STILL exist today!

So the more you rage about this, it's either out of total ignorance about such modern movements, or it makes me to think that YOU might be a member of one of those groups of secret societies today.
Dude, show me the priests, the temples, the accumulated wealth, the militaries, the throngs of followers and devotees...You have a few weirdos following pagan practices and rituals and a few conspiracy buffs talking about the Illuminate or whomever taking over the world while they pocket a few bucks off their paperback books...It is naive at best and ludicrous at worst to believe in such fairy tales...Islam is real and moving on the whole world fulfilling one end time prophecy after another as they line themselves up to move the world to Armageddon and your looking in the shadows for ghosts that don't really exist outside of a few communes and conspiracy books...
 

tgwprophet

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Richard Neal wrote: " The Druids are lost to history now "

Actually the Druids are not extinct. There is a chasier working at Wal-Greens in Lehigh Acres Fl. that is a Druid and has Druid friends.
As far as templesand such... most of the Pagans and Druids I know operate in semi-secretcy. For that matter, if I remember right the Jypsys are Pagans maybe not conviential Pagans though.
 

veteran

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Richard Neal said:
Dude, show me the priests, the temples, the accumulated wealth, the militaries, the throngs of followers and devotees...You have a few weirdos following pagan practices and rituals and a few conspiracy buffs talking about the Illuminate or whomever taking over the world while they pocket a few bucks off their paperback books...It is naive at best and ludicrous at worst to believe in such fairy tales...Islam is real and moving on the whole world fulfilling one end time prophecy after another as they line themselves up to move the world to Armageddon and your looking in the shadows for ghosts that don't really exist outside of a few communes and conspiracy books...
That's either an honest show of ignorance of real documented history about such movements, or you're trying to discredit anyone who brings up the subject of the secret initiatic fraternities.

See John Robison's 18th century work Proofs Of A Conspiracy.

It is still in print as far as I know. Robison was a British naturalist, what they called scientists in those days, and he also was a British Mason. When the secret papers of the Bavarian Illuminati order that the Jew Adam Weishaupt founded were discovered on one of Weishaupt's dead agents by the Bavarian police, its contents were released to the governments, Church leaders, and royal families of Europe. Those documents gave the structure and layout of the Illuminati order degrees and sections, and plans for secret overthrow of the governments of Europe and the Christian Church. It is a DOCUMENTED conspiracy, not theory.

Robison's main contention against the Illuminati order movement within Continental Masonry on the continent of Europe was how occultists and charlatans had crept into the Blue Lodges on the continent, like in France and Germany, etc. Weishaupt's claim with his Illuminati order was that he had the 'key' to the true Illumination secrets through a number of initiation degrees claimed to be more ancient. In reality, Weishaupt and his charlatan buddies made up those degrees they claimed from ancient sources. Yet it duped many of the Masonic lodges on the Continent, and that's how more than the original 3 degrees of British Masonry got expanded by those associated with the Illuminati group.

The structure laid out in Robison's book from the captured documents of the Bavarian Illuminati order gave the degree names, the associated initiated titles, some of the details of initiations, structure to create 'reading societies' so as to influence modern literature, infiltration into positoins in the Church for takeover, etc. It is a prime evidence of early western ideas of 'collectivism' which later became the Communist movement in Russia. Along with that structure both Robison and the Abbe Barruel in his own work about the Illuminati documented how the order had much to do with fomenting the French Revolution.

In the later 1970's a Catholic priest last name Kelly (all I recall) continued the research in Europe that those like Robison and Barruel had done, and presented a update of documentation of Illuminati workings in later Europe associated with the German economic unions. (See his book Conspiracy Against God and Man, for those interested).

These works I mention are NOT heresay. They are DOCUMENTED PROOF OF A REAL CONSPIRACY to overthrow the Christian nations and Christianity.
 

Richard Neal

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terry said:
Richard Neal wrote: " The Druids are lost to history now "

Actually the Druids are not extinct. There is a chasier working at Wal-Greens in Lehigh Acres Fl. that is a Druid and has Druid friends.
As far as templesand such... most of the Pagans and Druids I know operate in semi-secretcy. For that matter, if I remember right the Jypsys are Pagans maybe not conviential Pagans though.
The Druids and their culture were completely annihilated by the Catholic Church after St Columbo entered Ireland. They were annihilated to such an extent that scholars argue over what were their real beliefs, practices, rituals, etc. And they do so simply because they were annihilated to such an extent that even their historical records were intentionally annihilated by the Church...So you may know someone who is running around Wal-Mart claiming to be a Druid, but doing so is little more than silliness on his part - and your's for believing such nonsense. Because their is no way for him to even copy the Druids because we know virtually nothing about them beyond speculation and guessing .
 

tgwprophet

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Lehigh Acres, Florida
Hi Richard. Merry Christmas to you and yours!!!

Actually most religions are founded upon speculation and guessing. Jewish beleifs and Christianity are not religions - just facts. Now. first it is a she not a him it it wal-greens not wal-mart and justt because one begins to practice anew a religion of old but does not know the ancient beliefs does not invalidate it... for it began as a false religion and is re-born a false religion. Certainly many of the stringent aspects in that belief may be lost, but since those aspects are in error it does not matter. And she is not alone in her Druid "religion."

Since I used to see her nearly everyday, I do have a somewhat understanding of what her Druidness is..lol
And so, I find it too closely linked with Paganism - of which I know several people in Ohio that are of the pagan religion. Be that as it may, this religion she indulges and calls Druid does not mean it is not, unless it can be proven that its beliefs are not in align enough to be Druid... and since as you contend there is not enough historical information to prove their beliefs... then there is not enough information to prove she is not following correct doctrine enough to validate er form of Druidness.

How do I, or Why do I get to know these people of such lunicial religions? Simple I like to debate their understandings to temper my armor.

As far as seemingy good relations between Turkey and any country goes... " Dilpomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" while grabbing a club " that is not verbatium - but it does describe the politics between different countries wanting something from another country be it weapons or land access or water rights for passage or even natural resourses or more...


Do the countrys attemping to manipulate other countrys for a means to their end really want their friendsip or simply desire to be friendly until they get what they want and after they have achieved some sort of dominance over the country whose friendship they abused. So we reverted back to " givers and takers " but on a larger scale and with more to risk.

Many wish to be "friends" with Russia due to the military strenght of Russia. Perhaps not so much as thinking that Russia would come to their aide as it is that Russia would leave them alone in times of war. All these independant countries so close togther that invasion could easily take place on any side would certainly breed strange bedfellows. For these reasons I have little faith any alliance in this area would be a true friendship.





Hi Richard... Now on the completely anihialated subject, i would ask who said that? The Catholics? How is this possible to be proven, as any Druid wishing to spare himself or her self would have entered hiding, would they not? Can you successfully contend that "well known" makes it a fact? Then Druids wishing to remain alive would have become a secret society. Are the Catholics quite certain they burned all the books and writings and killed all the people that could have re-written enough to validate a fake religion built on fake understanding? Then, where is the line in the sand drawn to allow or stop validation of such a fake religion? Of course, I have no proof the Druids exist except this one person I know of that ciaims to be of the Druid faith and what is claimed on the internet. Then naturally there are neo-Druids that are linked to Christianity as well as neo-Druids linked to paganism. Can you say there is such a thing as a true Druid faith that of course is fake because it follows a fake god? When you claim its god is non-existant - which it is, then its foundation is completely fake, so now your debate is ... which is more fake... and so why does it matter since it is utterly fake based? Thus making any claim to this fake based religion following a fake god - valid.



Ah well... I really don't care anyway there is not much one can do when others choose to walk in darkness. I suspect the Muslims will be much more of a problem and may have secretly infected our - the USA government's system already, even if Obama is not Muslim.
I recently researched some interesting factes of a certain college... Florida A&M and upon investigating it saw something that I would think should not have been done. And I have questions that surfaced from this superficial investigation. How many other colleges are doing this as well? And is there a "grading curve" causing inferrior graduates yet with the same Degrees and sending them into the work-force or political arena? I have always dis-liked prejudices...especially prejudices over skin tone, but it is also a two-way street. It is my greatest concern if this promotes a Muslim faith and what it could mean if it infects our politicial offices to become a majority.
Im the blink of an eye, an overwhelming 2/3rds Muslim majority ( perhaps that we thought were Christian elected officials) could undo a Christian based government and Helter Skelter laws could be enacted with a completely Muslim promoting agenda that we would be unable to stop. Am I sounding like a color prejudiced person, I assure you I am NOT, but... a Muslim prejudiced person.. I can assure you - I am.and I would be against any false religion gaining authority in our government. I do not mean this to sound like I am a bad guy... just extremely concerned... at this point.