I did not state it here but, I too think Jesus will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem, on earth.
TWO GOSPELS PREACHED
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I did not state it here but, I too think Jesus will sit on David's throne in Jerusalem, on earth.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You're just stuck on an OLD broken record. Those men have planted the two-gospel idea into your head simply because of how God's Word shows there has been a separation between His chosen Israel and the Gentiles. Well, welcome to the New Covenant friend, because that separation NO LONGER EXISTS in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV
Did you happen to notice that 29th verse about those in Christ being called Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise? Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and Jesus said Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. That promise to Abraham included The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is why Paul also said those of Faith are the children of Abraham. That means OUR Faith on Jesus Christ is the SAME Faith that Abraham believed, and God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. In other words, Paul was teaching the ONE Gospel, from Abraham all the way down to... today.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Of course there was a difference between Paul's Ministry and the other Apostle's Ministries. But no difference in The Gospel of Jesus Christ they all preached.
The other Apostles didn't preach the law as a requirement of The Gospel, that was other Jews trying to do that, Judaizers from the Pharisees that crept in, so don't confuse the Apostles with those, because that doesn't support a dual-gospel idea.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Totally irrelevant.
When baptism was being preached by John the Baptist, Apostle Paul (Saul) was still a blind Pharisee, and even held the coats of those who stoned the prophet Stephen.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That is what God's Word teaches, but not man. Men's doctrines try to 'spiritualize' David's throne in order to move it to Heaven. Not difficult which men came up with that idea, because Pre-tribulationalism believes in a rapture to Heaven with Jesus reigning from there. Not written. There are two main Bible passages that I can think of at the moment, maybe three, that reveals emphatically where Jesus comes to take David's throne (Matthew 25:31; Genesis 49:10; and Ezekiel 21:27).
The new covenant is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and is made with the believing remnant of Israel. What you are referring to is the body of Christ in Galatians 3:28.
All you said about Abraham is right.
The only thing wrong Paul was preaching the gospel of God which includes the righteousness of Abraham through faith and imputed righteousness but there is not just one gospel.
I agree
The only thing I believe however, is that the church, the body of Christ will not go through the tribulation...we are saved from wrath 1 Thessalonians 5:9
Davy
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 8:8, which is a quote from Jeremiah, is a CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE. In Hebrews 12:24 we are told JESUS is the MEDIATOR of that NEW COVENANT. Can't get any plainer than that. (Paul wrote Hebrew is what I and many scholars believe, through the pen of Luke).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Well, you might want to study what Paul said in 1 Thess.5 more, because he was pulling from the OT prophets about that "sudden destruction" idea on the "day of the Lord". That happens on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns. So Paul is actually giving a 'specific' timing there for that day of wrath. It is not the tribulation time, it is the final day when Jesus comes when that 'wrath' will be poured out... upon 'them' (i.e., the wicked). That is why that wrath is not meant for us, His Church.
And further, God's Word gives us examples of being able to go through the fire without being harmed (Daniel 3). On that last day God's consuming fire is going to burn man's works off this earth (2 Peter 3:10). That is how this world time is going to end. And that is the day of wrath Paul is talking about. It will not harm us, even though it will occur on that day of the Lord when our Lord Jesus comes to get us to go to Jerusalem (on earth).
Hebrews 8:8 says plainly, the new covenant is made with the house of Israel and Judah...how could that be said to apply to the body of Christ. It could only be applied to the believing remnant of Israel, the church Paul persecuted, before there was a body of Christ.
Unless I am wrong Luke 21:23 speaks of wrath in the tribulation as does Revelation 6:16-17.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I really don't know where to begin a response to you on that matter, because there is so much written about, but mainly in the Old Testament prophets. I can only offer this summary, but you'll have to do the leg work in the OT if you really want to understand this:
1. Solomon allowed his foreign wives to bring in their idols into Israel. God warned Israel against idol worship and what He would do if His people did that per Deut.4 & 28, i.e., scatter them among the Gentiles.
2. God rent the kingdom from Solomon's son Rehoboam, gave him 2 tribes at Jerusalem called the "house of Judah". God then gave Jeroboam, one of the tribe of Ephraim, as king over ten tribes in the north at Samaria, called the "house of Israel". Old Israel was split into two separate kingdoms.
3. King Jeroboam over the northern ten tribes then created false idol calf worship in the north to keep the ten tribes from going south to Jerusalem to side with Judah and Benjamin. He made common priests of the people, which prevented the Levites from doing their duties in the north, so they left and went south to side with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. A small number of the ten tribes also refused Jeroboam's golden calf idols and went south to join with Judah. The tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi then made up the "kingdom of Judah" or "house of Judah" per God's Word.
4. After many kings in both kingdoms, God got tired of the continued golden calf idols that the northern "kingdom of Israel" kept doing, so He brought the kings of Assyria (in stages) against the northern ten tribes and removed them all out of the land. Only the 3-tribed house of Judah was left in the land at Jerusalem/Judea, which called themselves Jews after the name Judah.
5. The kings of Assyria then took pagan peoples from five different cities in Babylon, each city with its own pagan idol worship, and planted those peoples in the northern lands of Israel where the ten tribes had been removed. These became known as the Samaritans. They were foreigners and the Jews in the south wouldn't have anything to do with them. This is why Christ's Apostles even questioned our Lord Jesus' behavior when He spoke with the Samaritan woman at the well.
6. The ten tribes became lost, to themselves and to the world. What God had warned in Deut.4 & 28 came to pass. However, OT prophecy involving the ten tribes of the "house of Israel" continued, even prophecies about them all the way to the end (Amos 9:9).
7. In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted from the Book of Hosea, showing a section of that as fulfillment about the Gospel going to the Gentiles. Paul was speaking to the Church in Romans which was to Gentiles. However, the Hosea Scripture he quoted was written specifically about the ten tribe northern kingdom of Israel.
Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, "I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
KJV
You have to study the flow of Hosea 2 with what God is saying there about the ten tribes to grasp just 'how' Paul applied that above quote in Romans 9. I can't explain it any other way, so this may take a while...
Davy
Well-Known Member
Here's the Hosea part... the last verse is what Paul quoted in Romans 9 to Roman Gentile believers.
Hos 2:4-23
4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, 'I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.'
God is speaking of the ten northern tribes that fell into false worship against Him, as outlined in the first Hosea chapter. Israel's "lovers, ..." mean Israel's false Baal worship they fell into. In that time after the split, they attributed their blessings having come from Baal, and not from our Heavenly Father.
6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.
God literally did this to the northern ten tribes, just as He warned in Deut.4 & 28. To this day the majority of them are still scattered among the nations, are as Gentiles living among Gentiles. He made it so they would not find their way back to the holy land where they had been taken out of. In 100 A.D., the Jewish historian Josephus said the ten tribes were still scattered beyond Euphrates and were a great number of people, too many to be numbered. So even then they had not returned, and it is still like that to this day.
7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.
8 For she did not know that I gave her corn, and wine, and oil, and multiplied her silver and gold, which they prepared for Baal.
The ten tribes through her journeys after Baal would learn that is a dream and cannot be fulfilled, so she would seek to go back the way she came, because she had it better before. But God hedged up her paths so she couldn't find here way back.
9 Therefore will I return, and take away my corn in the time thereof, and my wine in the season thereof, and will recover my wool and my flax given to cover her nakedness.
10 And now will I discover her lewdness in the sight of her lovers, and none shall deliver her out of mine hand.
11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
12 And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, 'These are my rewards that my lovers have given me': and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
13 And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.
All that involved the scattering of the ten tribes with falling deeply into Baal worship wherever they went. The many false pagan gods of the early European nations is represented by this. By the Norsk it was Odin and Thor, in Britain the Druids system, in Rome it as worship of Jupiter, in Greece it was Apollos and Zeus, etc. All those various forms of idol and false god worship originate from Baal. Per the science of Anthropology, they already know the relationship of these peoples who migrated into Asia Minor and Europe as having come mainly from the Cimmerians and Scythians. What Anthropologists can't figure out is just where... their original migration started from.
God did this to the ten tribes, basically allowed them to turn themselves into pagans. He kept a remnant that would know the truth though at the same time. They lost knowledge of the feast days, new moons, sabbaths, and solemn feasts, losing their heritage as Israel.
14 Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.
16 And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
That is about the time that would come when God would start to bring her back to Himself, through The Gospel. The word "Ishi" means 'my husband', so it's a term of endearment towards our Heavenly Father. Paul did say in 2 Cor.11 that he wanted to present us to our Husband, Jesus Christ, as a chaste virgin. So all this Hosea section is involving the coming of The Gospel to them, and they would believe, being among the Gentiles where Paul was specifically sent to preach The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Per Acts 9 though, Jesus said He chose Paul to preach The Gospel not only to the Gentiles, but also to kings, and to the children of Israel. That latter children of Israel cannot just be limited to the Jews in Jerusalem. He preached to scattered Israelites and Gentiles at the same time.
17 For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto Me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto Me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, 'Thou art My people'; and they shall say, 'Thou art my God.'
KJV
That part in bold red is what Paul quoted to Gentiles in Romans 9. That is meant for both the scattered believers on Christ of the seed of Israel, and Gentiles with them, both together as ONE body in Christ Jesus, His Church.
So when others say to you that only Jews are true Israel today, that's simply not true, as the Jews are only one third of the total number of the 12 tribes of Israel. And if today's Jews (minus the foreigner converts among them) make a certain number of peoples, then the ten lost tribes make up a much greater number than those, even as many as the stars of the sky and sands of the sea. Ezekiel 37 is specific event of the two houses being joined together at Christ's coming.
Davy
Well-Known Member
It's about these that Jesus warned about that fall away to false worship...
Luke 23:26-30
26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.'"
KJV
Luke 21:23
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
KJV
The Luke 21 passage isn't about literal pregnant women in that time. It is a metaphor for playing the spiritual harlot against Him. The idea is about being found 'with child' having played the harlot. This parable comes from Isaiah 54 and many struggle with it. But it's very simple, when one has focus on what our Lord actually said there, and here in Luke 23 where He is quoting from Isaiah 54. Apostle Paul taught the same kind of idea in 2 Corinthians 11 about us not falling to the "another Jesus" and instead being presented to Christ as "a chaste virgin".
Paul, in Romans 9 is speaking of the believing Remnant of Israel comprised of Jews and Gentiles, the Gentiles would provoke Israel to jealousy. This has nothing to do with ten tribes.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but you are wrong. The 'Jews' only make up a portion of total Israelites. God's Word made that plain and it is written. So you're not going against a mere opinion here, you are going against God's written Word. Scripture like Ezekiel 37 about the future re-joining of the two 'houses' of Israel is just one proof of this. So I'll not argue with you about it. You can take it or leave it, I don't care.
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