TWO GOSPELS PREACHED

[James Forthwright]

The law was changed: Hebrews 7.12.

What we now have is better than the law, Hebrews 7.19.

Can you cite any other of the apostles that make this claim?

 

[James Forthwright]

Does anyone know how many times Paul quotes Jesus in his various epistles?

 

[farouk]

Can you cite any other of the apostles that make this claim?

You don't accept what it says; I don't have anything further to say.

 

[James Forthwright]

You don't accept what it says; I don't have anything further to say.

You are certainly free to exit the discussion. However, it is a principle of sound biblical exegesis to be able to corroborate any doctrine/claim from two or more witnesses (Deut 19:15) This thread concerns Paul's doctrinal claims vs. the other apostles regarding God's Laws and commandments. You have failed to provide any other source to bolster your convictions other than Paul's writings.

 

[farouk]

You are certainly free to exit the discussion. However, it is a principle of sound biblical exegesis to be able to corroborate any doctrine/claim from two or more witnesses (Deut 19:15) This thread concerns Paul's doctrinal claims vs. the other apostles regarding God's Laws and commandments. You have failed to provide any other source to bolster your convictions other than Paul's writings.

Sir, Why should I argue when you seemingly don't even accept the unity of Scripture?

We don't know that Paul wrote Hebrews in any case.

 

[farouk]

[.]

 

[charity]

And what if you (and most of Christianity) are wrong? What if it's Paul that is wrong?
Jesus/Yahshua hand-picked twelve men to declare the true gospel.

Paul was a Pharisee studying nearby at the feet of Gamaliel.
Why didn't Jesus immediately contact this prolific writing talent right from the beginning?
Why is Paul's gospel so different than Peter, James and John's?
Why doesn't any of the "New Testament" writers begin any of their writings with "Thus saith the LORD?"

In warfare, one of the greatest mistakes one can ever make is to underestimate the enemy's tactics.
What if Paul was subtly used by Satan to dismiss and demean the Holy Spirit inspired words contained in the "Old" Testament about observing God's commandments? (Ecc 12:13)

Why would our Savior sternly warn us:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).

if all we have to do is: "say the magic words, JESUS IS LORD & believe" in order to acquire salvation?

Hello James Forthwright,

I hope that your, 'What if,' scenario is not an expression of what you truly believe!?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug]

That's quite a bit of fancy ecclesiastical tap dancing, Doug. Not quite sure what you mean by "believing Israel"?

Care to list a few examples of OT casting out of demons?

Believing Israel is the remnant of Israel that have received Jesus, that have believed on his name for eternal life (John 20:31), that have repented and believed the gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the twelve disciples. They will enter the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Those that Jesus spoke about casting out demons were those in Acts 19:13 as an example

 

[James Forthwright]

Believing Israel is the remnant of Israel that have received Jesus, that have believed on his name for eternal life (John 20:31), that have repented and believed the gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the twelve disciples. They will enter the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

Those that Jesus spoke about casting out demons were those in Acts 19:13 as an example

Thanks for your explanations, Doug.

I tend to not be dogmatic about eschatological time sequences (for good reasons). I'd still like to hear why/who are going to be addressed by Jesus in Mat 7:21-23.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are definitely Christian believers, who, even though they have prophesied, cast out demons and done many marvelous works, are being summarily rejected by Christ. Jesus' explanation appears clear: They are not heeding His Father's Commandments (Torah) and are working to promote iniquity (lawlessness/anti-nomianism).

 

[James Forthwright]

Hello James Forthwright,

I hope that your, 'What if,' scenario is not an expression of what you truly believe!?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hello Chris. It has come to my attention that much of what was written in Paul's epistles appears to contradict the doctrines of Peter, James and John, and definitely the scriptural teachings of the Torah (Moses, Prophets & Psalms). I'm currently studying the matter in some depth and haven't come to any firm conclusion yet, but the evidence uncovered so far does not paint Saul/Paul in a favorable light. For instance, I'm just about finished reading Questioning Paul by Craig Winn. It's a voluminous 767 page critique mostly on the Book of Galatians. It's a difficult read in many aspects but has many eye opening insights in to the mind/matters of the "Thirteenth Apostle" Saul/Paul.

Thanks for your concern!

 

[Nancy]

But it's mostly Paul (and his traveling companions) that stakes the claim of the Gentiles solely for himself.

Do you not believe that Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and gave him the mission to the gentiles? That, Jesus instructed him to Damascus to meet Ananias who instructed him further and laid hands on him to receive the Holy Spirit and be baptized.
Do you believe that his companions lied and that they did not see the light that blinded Paul?
It just seems to me that, without Paul's epistles, gentiles would not have been invited to the New Covenant.
Just wondering as I don't understand those who do not believe Paul was a true follower of Christ.

 

[Davy]

And what if you (and most of Christianity) are wrong? What if it's Paul that is wrong?
Jesus/Yahshua hand-picked twelve men to declare the true gospel.

Paul was a Pharisee studying nearby at the feet of Gamaliel.
Why didn't Jesus immediately contact this prolific writing talent right from the beginning?
Why is Paul's gospel so different than Peter, James and John's?
Why doesn't any of the "New Testament" writers begin any of their writings with "Thus saith the LORD?"

In warfare, one of the greatest mistakes one can ever make is to underestimate the enemy's tactics.
What if Paul was subtly used by Satan to dismiss and demean the Holy Spirit inspired words contained in the "Old" Testament about observing God's commandments? (Ecc 12:13)

Why would our Savior sternly warn us:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).

if all we have to do is: "say the magic words, JESUS IS LORD & believe" in order to acquire salvation?

Those on the two gospels idea aren't sticking with the actual Scripture, which is how cults are formed. All the Apostles, including Paul, agreed with each other, and with the OT prophets, and of course with what our Lord Jesus taught. Those on the Hyperdispensational doctrine try to create a separate which really does not exist.

 

[Davy]

The following supposed differences are just made-up. Doesn't take much common sense to see their error in that two-gospel cult.

Here are differences in preaching between the twelve apostles and the apostle Paul:
1) The name of Jesus
The twelve preached whosoever believed in the name of Jesus was saved (John 1:12 John 3:16-18 John 20:31 Acts 10:43). There was no mention of reconciliation by the cross (Colossians 1:20), and in fact the understanding of the death and resurrection was hid from the twelve (Luke 18:34).

Of course the first Apostles didn't understand about Christ's crucifixion and resurrection until... they SAW it. Then when He appeared to them after His resurrection, they were certain. So trying to make a difference between how Salvation was preached prior to Christ's death and resurrection vs. afterwards is an unrealistic comparison. It doesn't prove the existence to 2 different gospels. Instead, it proves the existence of the ONE Gospel, which was prophesied even by the OT prophets, for David was given to prophesy of Christ's crucifixion even about thousand years before it happened (Psalms 22). The OT proclaimed, the NT witnessed and confirmed, ALL the 'same' Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ crucified is what Apostle Paul preached too.

Paul preached salvation in the name of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:2 1 Corinthians 6:11 Ephesians 5:20) and by the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18 Colossians 1:20 Galatians 6:14 Ephesians 2:16).

Jesus had already died and resurrected when Paul did that preaching, so no brainer.

2) Baptism
The twelve preached salvation upon baptism (Acts 2:38 Mark 16:16)
Paul was not sent to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17)

So what does that prove? Paul was sent to preach, as Jesus said so (Acts 9). But Paul did baptize some also.

Christ's disciples preached Christ crucified, Faith on Jesus Christ and baptism for the remission of sins. That of course couldn't be in effect until Jesus actually died on the cross and The Father raised Him from the dead.

3) The Holy Ghost
The twelve preached the receiving of the Holy Ghost upon baptism (Acts 2:38).
Paul preached that the Holy Ghost was received upon belief (Ephesians 1:13).

That's misleading. Peter in Acts 2:38 did not actually say the receiving of The Holy Spirit would happen immediately upon water baptism. One would have to insert that idea there, because we have other Scripture examples where some were baptized of water but didn't yet know Jesus had died and was raised, so when they heard about Jesus The Holy Spirit then came upon them. And then with others they received The Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism.

So clearly none of that has anything to do with a dual-gospel idea.

4) The kingdom
The twelve preached the kingdom gospel of the earthly Davidic kingdom (Luke 9:2 Luke 9:6).
Paul spoke of a heavenly kingdom (2 Timothy 4:18).

Another cult misleading. Paul preached the 'kingdom' too, many times (get a concordance, do your own homework).

5) The resurrection
The twelve preached Jesus raised from the dead to sit upon the throne of David (Acts 2:30).
Paul preached that Jesus was raised for our justification unto eternal life (Romans 4:25).

That reveals a basic lack of Bible study. Jesus was promised to sit upon the throne of David, both in the OT and the NT. And David's throne was an earthly throne, which is where Jesus will return to reign, which is also written. No excuse for just brushing over this. When you see men do things like that, then you 'know' that is nothing but a CULT.

The 'hireling' preaches for money (John 10). God didn't call them. Like wolves they prey on congregations. That is why they make up whole doctrines to draw brethren out of the money in their pockets.

 

[Doug]

Thanks for your explanations, Doug.

I tend to not be dogmatic about eschatological time sequences (for good reasons). I'd still like to hear why/who are going to be addressed by Jesus in Mat 7:21-23.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are definitely Christian believers, who, even though they have prophesied, cast out demons and done many marvelous works, are being summarily rejected by Christ. Jesus' explanation appears clear: They are not heeding His Father's Commandments (Torah) and are working to promote iniquity (lawlessness/anti-nomianism).

To understand Matthew 7 you have to go back to Matthew 5 to see what was being talked about.

Matthew 5:1-2 Jesus was speaking to his disciples and the multitude.

Matthew 5:3 Jesus was speaking of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is in heaven and comes down to earth as can be seen in Revelation 21 and 22. This is the prophetic earthly kingdom promised the believing remnant of Israel in which they will reign with Christ for a thousand years over the Israel and the Gentiles nations that will enter. Jesus is teaching what the kingdom will be like and the attributes of those who will enter.

Matthew 5:19 to be great in the kingdom they had to keep the commandments

Matthew 5:20 to enter the kingdom they had to be righteous and then goes on to describe that righteousness. They would be given power by the Holy Spirit to be able to enter the kingdom as seen at Pentecost (of course the kingdom was postponed by this dispensation).

Matthew 7:13 They had to enter into the kingdom by the strait gate

Matthew 7:15 They were to beware of false prophets who were not the true believing Jews

Matthew 7:16 The false prophets would be known by the believing Jews by their fruit

Matthew 7:21-23 So these false prophet Jews are the ones he is saying will not enter the kingdom

 

[Doug]

The following supposed differences are just made-up. Doesn't take much common sense to see their error in that two-gospel cult.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The gospel that spoke of the righteousness of God was witnessed back in the law and the prophets. This would include the gospel of the kingdom which was preached by Jesus and the twelve (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 John 3:14-15 Hebrews 10:1).

To Paul was revealed the fulness, the complete gospel of the the redemption in Christ and faith in Christ Jesus and his blood. Paul now manifested the righteousness of God by the full revelation of the gospel (Romans 16:25-26).

There are not two competing gospels, the gospel of the kingdom and faith in his name (John 20:31) was just a partial revelation of the full gospel revealed to Paul. They had to believe what gospel was given them, but all the gospels were based on justification by the blood sacrifice of Christ for payment for sin.

 

[Davy]

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The gospel that spoke of the righteousness of God was witnessed back in the law and the prophets. This would include the gospel of the kingdom which was preached by Jesus and the twelve (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 John 3:14-15 Hebrews 10:1).

To Paul was revealed the fulness, the complete gospel of the the redemption in Christ and faith in Christ Jesus and his blood. Paul now manifested the righteousness of God by the full revelation of the gospel (Romans 16:25-26).

There are not two competing gospels, the gospel of the kingdom and faith in his name (John 20:31) was just a partial revelation of the full gospel revealed to Paul. They had to believe what gospel was given them, but all the gospels were based on justification by the blood sacrifice of Christ for payment for sin.

Hyper-Dispensationalism furthers doctrines started by Darby in 1800's Britain. It seeks to separate Israel apart from Christ's Church, which is why the preaching of Apostle Paul is abused over the preaching of Christ's early Apostles that were with Him, particularly those like Peter and James. The object of Hyper-Dispensationalism is to further Darby's theory that the Church is raptured to Heaven and reigns with Jesus from Heaven while the nation of Israel is restored on the earth. This is why the false idea of two-gospels is preached in those kind of churches, one for the Jews and one for the Church.

The distinction in Galatians 2 Paul makes has also misled those on the Hyper-Dispensational doctrine to think there have been two different gospels, one for the Jews and one for the Church. Not so, and not what Paul said there:

Gal 2:7-8
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For He That wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
KJV

That "apostleship" is about the idea of a commission in The Gospel. That verse is given by Paul in explanation of HOW he meant the 7th verse there. There's a commission in The Gospel to the Jews (circumcision), and another commission of the SAME Gospel to the Gentiles (uncircumcision). But for both, it is the SAME Gospel of Jesus Christ, for there is only one Gospel, and it was first preached to Abraham like Paul also showed in Romans and Galatians, even shown by our Lord Jesus.

 

[Doug]

Of course the first Apostles didn't understand about Christ's crucifixion and resurrection until... they SAW it. Then when He appeared to them after His resurrection, they were certain. So trying to make a difference between how Salvation was preached prior to Christ's death and resurrection vs. afterwards is an unrealistic comparison. It doesn't prove the existence to 2 different gospels. Instead, it proves the existence of the ONE Gospel, which was prophesied even by the OT prophets, for David was given to prophesy of Christ's crucifixion even about thousand years before it happened (Psalms 22). The OT proclaimed, the NT witnessed and confirmed, ALL the 'same' Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ crucified is what Apostle Paul preached too.

What were the apostles certain of after the resurrection ? Certainly not the gospel as preached by Paul in it's fully revealed form.
There were 2 gospels, but only in the sense that was revealed to Peter and the apostles was only revealing partial revelation until Paul, who was given full revelation.
Salvation was only obtained by either the twelve apostles or Paul by one way...the justification of Christ by the sacrifice of himself for our sin and by his blood.
Before Paul, God only revealed that Israel could be saved by believing on the name of Jesus (John 20:31). They had to be righteous to enter into the kingdom on earth....salvation unto eternal life was settled upon them believing that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31).
To Paul it was fully revealed that by the death for our sin and the resurrection of Christ, God was forming a new man, the body of Christ, wherein both Jew and Gentile formed the body of Christ, to reconcile the heavenly places.

 

[Doug]

Jesus had already died and resurrected when Paul did that preaching, so no brainer.

2) Baptism
The twelve preached salvation upon baptism (Acts 2:38 Mark 16:16)
Paul was not sent to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17)

The point i was making was that there was a difference in the ministry of the twelve and Paul.

 

[Doug]

Christ's disciples preached Christ crucified, Faith on Jesus Christ and baptism for the remission of sins. That of course couldn't be in effect until Jesus actually died on the cross and The Father raised Him from the dead.

The fact that the disciples preached baptism for the remission of sins, sets it apart from Paul who was not sent to baptize.

 

[Doug]

3) The Holy Ghost
The twelve preached the receiving of the Holy Ghost upon baptism (Acts 2:38).
Paul preached that the Holy Ghost was received upon belief (Ephesians 1:13).

That's misleading. Peter in Acts 2:38 did not actually say the receiving of The Holy Spirit would happen immediately upon water baptism. One would have to insert that idea there, because we have other Scripture examples where some were baptized of water but didn't yet know Jesus had died and was raised, so when they heard about Jesus The Holy Spirit then came upon them. And then with others they received The Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism.

You know, I think that is a good point.
The Holy Ghost was received in more than one way.
Thanks