James Forthwright
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The law was changed: Hebrews 7.12.
What we now have is better than the law, Hebrews 7.19.
Can you cite any other of the apostles that make this claim?
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The law was changed: Hebrews 7.12.
What we now have is better than the law, Hebrews 7.19.
You don't accept what it says; I don't have anything further to say.Can you cite any other of the apostles that make this claim?
You don't accept what it says; I don't have anything further to say.
Sir, Why should I argue when you seemingly don't even accept the unity of Scripture?You are certainly free to exit the discussion. However, it is a principle of sound biblical exegesis to be able to corroborate any doctrine/claim from two or more witnesses (Deut 19:15) This thread concerns Paul's doctrinal claims vs. the other apostles regarding God's Laws and commandments. You have failed to provide any other source to bolster your convictions other than Paul's writings.
Hello James Forthwright,And what if you (and most of Christianity) are wrong? What if it's Paul that is wrong?
Jesus/Yahshua hand-picked twelve men to declare the true gospel.
Paul was a Pharisee studying nearby at the feet of Gamaliel.
Why didn't Jesus immediately contact this prolific writing talent right from the beginning?
Why is Paul's gospel so different than Peter, James and John's?
Why doesn't any of the "New Testament" writers begin any of their writings with "Thus saith the LORD?"
In warfare, one of the greatest mistakes one can ever make is to underestimate the enemy's tactics.
What if Paul was subtly used by Satan to dismiss and demean the Holy Spirit inspired words contained in the "Old" Testament about observing God's commandments? (Ecc 12:13)
Why would our Savior sternly warn us:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).
if all we have to do is: "say the magic words, JESUS IS LORD & believe" in order to acquire salvation?
Believing Israel is the remnant of Israel that have received Jesus, that have believed on his name for eternal life (John 20:31), that have repented and believed the gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the twelve disciples. They will enter the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years.That's quite a bit of fancy ecclesiastical tap dancing, Doug. Not quite sure what you mean by "believing Israel"?
Care to list a few examples of OT casting out of demons?
Believing Israel is the remnant of Israel that have received Jesus, that have believed on his name for eternal life (John 20:31), that have repented and believed the gospel of the kingdom preached by Jesus and the twelve disciples. They will enter the kingdom on earth and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
Those that Jesus spoke about casting out demons were those in Acts 19:13 as an example
Hello James Forthwright,
I hope that your, 'What if,' scenario is not an expression of what you truly believe!?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
But it's mostly Paul (and his traveling companions) that stakes the claim of the Gentiles solely for himself.
And what if you (and most of Christianity) are wrong? What if it's Paul that is wrong?
Jesus/Yahshua hand-picked twelve men to declare the true gospel.
Paul was a Pharisee studying nearby at the feet of Gamaliel.
Why didn't Jesus immediately contact this prolific writing talent right from the beginning?
Why is Paul's gospel so different than Peter, James and John's?
Why doesn't any of the "New Testament" writers begin any of their writings with "Thus saith the LORD?"
In warfare, one of the greatest mistakes one can ever make is to underestimate the enemy's tactics.
What if Paul was subtly used by Satan to dismiss and demean the Holy Spirit inspired words contained in the "Old" Testament about observing God's commandments? (Ecc 12:13)
Why would our Savior sternly warn us:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness).
if all we have to do is: "say the magic words, JESUS IS LORD & believe" in order to acquire salvation?
Here are differences in preaching between the twelve apostles and the apostle Paul:
1) The name of Jesus
The twelve preached whosoever believed in the name of Jesus was saved (John 1:12 John 3:16-18 John 20:31 Acts 10:43). There was no mention of reconciliation by the cross (Colossians 1:20), and in fact the understanding of the death and resurrection was hid from the twelve (Luke 18:34).
Paul preached salvation in the name of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:2 1 Corinthians 6:11 Ephesians 5:20) and by the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18 Colossians 1:20 Galatians 6:14 Ephesians 2:16).
2) Baptism
The twelve preached salvation upon baptism (Acts 2:38 Mark 16:16)
Paul was not sent to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17)
3) The Holy Ghost
The twelve preached the receiving of the Holy Ghost upon baptism (Acts 2:38).
Paul preached that the Holy Ghost was received upon belief (Ephesians 1:13).
4) The kingdom
The twelve preached the kingdom gospel of the earthly Davidic kingdom (Luke 9:2 Luke 9:6).
Paul spoke of a heavenly kingdom (2 Timothy 4:18).
5) The resurrection
The twelve preached Jesus raised from the dead to sit upon the throne of David (Acts 2:30).
Paul preached that Jesus was raised for our justification unto eternal life (Romans 4:25).
Thanks for your explanations, Doug.
I tend to not be dogmatic about eschatological time sequences (for good reasons). I'd still like to hear why/who are going to be addressed by Jesus in Mat 7:21-23.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These are definitely Christian believers, who, even though they have prophesied, cast out demons and done many marvelous works, are being summarily rejected by Christ. Jesus' explanation appears clear: They are not heeding His Father's Commandments (Torah) and are working to promote iniquity (lawlessness/anti-nomianism).
The following supposed differences are just made-up. Doesn't take much common sense to see their error in that two-gospel cult.
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
The gospel that spoke of the righteousness of God was witnessed back in the law and the prophets. This would include the gospel of the kingdom which was preached by Jesus and the twelve (Deuteronomy 18:15-19 John 3:14-15 Hebrews 10:1).
To Paul was revealed the fulness, the complete gospel of the the redemption in Christ and faith in Christ Jesus and his blood. Paul now manifested the righteousness of God by the full revelation of the gospel (Romans 16:25-26).
There are not two competing gospels, the gospel of the kingdom and faith in his name (John 20:31) was just a partial revelation of the full gospel revealed to Paul. They had to believe what gospel was given them, but all the gospels were based on justification by the blood sacrifice of Christ for payment for sin.
Of course the first Apostles didn't understand about Christ's crucifixion and resurrection until... they SAW it. Then when He appeared to them after His resurrection, they were certain. So trying to make a difference between how Salvation was preached prior to Christ's death and resurrection vs. afterwards is an unrealistic comparison. It doesn't prove the existence to 2 different gospels. Instead, it proves the existence of the ONE Gospel, which was prophesied even by the OT prophets, for David was given to prophesy of Christ's crucifixion even about thousand years before it happened (Psalms 22). The OT proclaimed, the NT witnessed and confirmed, ALL the 'same' Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ crucified is what Apostle Paul preached too.
2) BaptismJesus had already died and resurrected when Paul did that preaching, so no brainer.
Christ's disciples preached Christ crucified, Faith on Jesus Christ and baptism for the remission of sins. That of course couldn't be in effect until Jesus actually died on the cross and The Father raised Him from the dead.
3) The Holy Ghost
The twelve preached the receiving of the Holy Ghost upon baptism (Acts 2:38).
Paul preached that the Holy Ghost was received upon belief (Ephesians 1:13).
That's misleading. Peter in Acts 2:38 did not actually say the receiving of The Holy Spirit would happen immediately upon water baptism. One would have to insert that idea there, because we have other Scripture examples where some were baptized of water but didn't yet know Jesus had died and was raised, so when they heard about Jesus The Holy Spirit then came upon them. And then with others they received The Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism.