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Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Love123, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Oh, I most certainly would want to be the one who RECEIVES THEIR INHERITANCE (i.e. taken) - paralambano. (G 3880)

    It's a completely different word in the Greek than the "taken" of v.40 which is the physical taking - airo. (G 142)
    _________________________

    The taken applied to the one and not the other is the same word that is translated for when we "receive" Christ.

    The wicked were "carried off" by the flood.
    _________________________

    Another Rapture verb that Matthew uses is paralambano to describe Jesus’ message to the Church’s deliverance. An interesting word, it is rendered here as simply “taken,” it means to take over, to receive, to inherit. It is used in the Greek world to describe how instruction is received from a teacher. Also in context of the Greek world it would mean to inherit secrets, especially by oral means. The ‘taking over’ refers then to a position of idea, rather than a physical carriage from place to place.

    In the New Testament, paralambano is used chiefly when one “receives” Christ in 1Co 11:23; Gal 1:12; 1Th 2:13 and 1Th 4:1. In an eschatological sense, Jesus uses this same word in John 14:3 when He will take us to where He is going. So when this word is used here for taking one and leaving the other, it is the one who is taken who is saved. In Daniel 12, which is the first instance in the Bible to show two resurrections, Daniel is told in the last verse to wait rest until he receives his allotted inheritance. paralambano carries just such a meaning here too so that all three definitions of it are included in the action which the authors describe from Jesus’ words.

    aírō [to lift up, carry off] The meanings are “to life from the ground,” “to lift in order to carry” and “to carry off.”
     
  2. whitestone

    whitestone New Member

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    The Rapture theory, lol. What an invention. Receive Christ To Day folks! Don't stand waiting around for the "rapturist theory". It isn't any more true today than when it was invented in the early mid 1800's by Margaret McDonald in Glasgow Scotland. Google it. That is why the "rapture theory" never existed until that lady got an "epiphany" at a prayer class. It is just a goofy "futuristic" concept embraced by the fact-free religious "futurists" who swallow the doctrine along with their faulty "explain away" method of saying that "took them all away" doesn't reference the "taken" of the very next verse lol!... sometime reading these posts is like watching a blind man explain what the color red doesn't look like.
     
  3. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Destroy the hope we're supposed to share why dontcha.

    1Th 4:16-18
     
  4. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Wow Whitestone eluded the understanding I gave and instead only continued with his errors. Teleiosis keep the faith. They have zero chance of winning a debate against just lil ole me on this issue. All they can do is ignore ideas and questions I pose for their understanding will not stand to scrutinity. And....BTW.... Whitestone I am not a "futurist" I am not a peterist nor am I am of the "ists" nor am I any of the "isms" nor am I any of the "ites" but i can be classified as one of the "ets"
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    There is no idea what man calls a 'rapture' written in God's Word. Instead it is about those on earth being changed at the twinkling of an eye at Christ's coming. That's when the harpazo ("caught up") event is to occur, at Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord". It's about the "spiritual body" area of operation, not our flesh.

    In 1 Thess.4, Apostle Paul well explained this when he said that we (those still alive who remain) shall not "prevent" those who have already died in Christ. That KJV word "prevent" is actually the word for PRECEDE in the Greek. The real phrase is that we still alive on earth who remain shall not 'precede' the asleep saints that have already died in Christ. Paul includes with that the idea that Christ Jesus is going to bring those asleep saints with Him, when He returns, which means what concerning the resurrection? It means when Christ brings those asleep saints with Him when He comes, the resurrection has already happened. That means those still on earth have also gone through Paul's change on the "last trump" to their "spiritual body". It means the John 5:28-29 event when all who remain on earth are changed to be either of the "resurrection of life" or of the "resurrection of damnation".

    This is why men's ideas of a 'rapture' does not align with God's Word, and never will.
     
  6. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Just a few quotes to show that the belief of a rapture pre-dated Darby by well over a thousand years. (words in parenthesis mine)

    Tertullian - "
    Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli

    Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.

    Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn (One of his terms for rapture)…And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."
    251 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
     
  7. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Veteran wrote: " This is why men's ideas of a 'rapture' does not align with God's Word, and never will. " - Veteran - that is a FALSE statement, and I can easily prove it. Becasue you made that false statement it shows you are not operating from a factual standpoint but a prejudiced one. I noticed that whenever needed you decided to claim this or that } means " ----------------- and doing that.... means you are operating from a prejudiced stand. Now, to prove what I claimed first. AFTER Armageddon man's view of the RAPTURE WILL most certainly align with God.. and to use your word... "means" that man will then (not "never" as you said) definately align with God and do so, correctly.

    I realize many have placed the rapture with the secondcoming, claiming when Jesus returns the "first" time during Revelation or Tribulation is also the time of Armageddonor such, but I have never successfully drawn a connection between the rapture and Jesus returning, at best it is a guess. And I fo realize the sciptures semi-pointing to this,,, but it is not actually clear, except in the minds of those wishing to draw their own conclusions, Yet those conslusions do NOT explain what I contend about believers who cannot deny the Mark of the Beast for many or any reason(s). Without a "rapture" you have an impassable quandry. Veteran, thus far you have been the only one providing a quality defense. Others use "ignore" as a defense. If they desire to step up to the plate, I wish they would bring a bat.

    For the rest... denying the rapture as being a good thing....
    Those agreeing wth the rapture as a death thing of bad people... you claim then God will be separating the chaft from the chaft.. ( or if you prefer,,,harvesting the tares from the tares. ) please re-think your stand.

    TREKSON, good job, though I believe the description in God's Word is sufficient to allow the coined term... " rapture " to define Believers being spared the turmoil of Tribulation. The first half of tribulation is not a time of turmoil but rather a time of peace.
    Again.. this is my tale and I am still waggin' it.
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    It's not a false statement, because there is NO 'rapture' teaching by any seminary school today that rightly aligns with God's Word. You've either got a Pre-Trib Rapture being taught, or a Pre-Wrath Rapture being taught. BOTH do not align with God's Word about the gathering of the saints to Christ when He comes, because both have it as the Church being taken off the earth when Scripture reveals the Church is gathered to Christ coming to Jerusalem, on earth (Zech.14). So WHICH one of those seminary doctrines of 'men' have you accepted Terry?


    Well, since you're pushing the idea that Christ's return is with multiple times, that has to mean you believe in the false Pre-Trib Secret Rapture idea of man or the Pre-Wrath Rapture idea, since both believe we are taken off the earth to heaven instead of being protected while on earth like God's Word teaches instead. So far your "rapture" is not the same thing as the 'harpazo' event that Paul explained. The Heavenly is coming 'here', on earth', with Christ's coming. We are changed to the spiritual body with that event, and then flee to Christ Who comes to Jerusalem on earth per Zech.14 and Acts 1. The doctrine of men you follow instead teaches that we're off in the clouds somewhere with that.

    You're trumped up 'denial of the rapture' idea doesn't work Terry. That word is not even written in The Bible.

    And the only reason you use it is to point to either men's doctrine of a Pre-Trib Rapture or a Pre-Wrath Rapture, of which neither is Biblical. And that further cements what I've said on this Forum about those who like to use that word 'rapture', i.e., to push doctrines of men instead of staying in God's Word as written.

    This Scripture right here makes all those who claim Christ's Church is not here to go through this tribulation as liars...

    Mark 13:19-27
    19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
    20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
    21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
    22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
    23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
    24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And then shall he send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    (KJV)

    That gathering event is to heaven alright, to Jerusalem where Christ is coming per Zech.14 and Acts 1. That's the specific area where we are gathered by Christ, after that event with Heaven revealed with His coming.
     
  9. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Vet, actually, I've been shown that Zech. 14 is post-mill. Rev. 20:8-9 timing. There is zero reason for the church to brought to Jerusalem. That's the home of Israel while we, the church, abide in heaven.
     
  10. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Bear with me Vet....
    Veteran wrote: " It's not a false statement, because there is NO 'rapture' teaching by any seminary school today that rightly aligns with God's Word. You've either got a Pre-Trib Rapture being taught, or a Pre-Wrath Rapture being taught. BOTH do not align with God's Word about the gathering of the saints to Christ when He comes, because both have it as the Church being taken off the earth when Scripture reveals the Church is gathered to Christ coming to Jerusalem, on earth (Zech.14). So WHICH one of those seminary doctrines of 'men' have you accepted Terry?Veteran wrote: " How did you miss thsi Vet? My statemment is inclusive of a " no rapture theory " - just not exclusive to a rapture theory. I told you I could EASILY prove it... and I did. " AFTER Armageddon man's view of the RAPTURE WILL most certainly align with God.. and to use your word... "means" that man will then (not "never" as you said) will definately align with God and do so, correctly. " For IF there is NO Rapture then men's idea would still re-align itself and so align with God;s NO rapture - after Armageddon - when all things are known, but you said NEVER - and so you are wrong ! This demonstrates that you read things the way YOU want and not the way they are ! Which is exactly the trap I am trying to help you get out of.

    Now, Veteran, please do not do as the others and igmore that you understand only to attack from a different angle. Let it be known you now understand what I wrote. Show me here and everyone that you are not going to trap yourself and remain there no matter what. - in an attempt to be right. Comiong forth with your "never" as being in error is the most correct thing you can do.

    Maybe this would help you more... When I learned of this rapture thing.. I too wondered about it.. and I am NOT done wondering. So I tested the validity of it. In doing so, I considered what would be the NEED for a rapture and so amid the pros and cons of scripture I considered a problem for the Believers unable to defend themsleves against Satan's Mark - in that - I discovered a geniune need for a rapture. In the con side I found no validity for the absence of a rapture... such as the " taken away " separating the chaft from the chaft thing I worte earlier. A 99 year old man with demensia, alheimers, or what ever, but physically in decent health and always believed in Jesus would require an "escape" from the perils of Tribulation to avoid the Beast's Mark... Are you going to attempt to develop another alternative to the rapture to spare him. one that is " better " than a rapture? but why?

    I never ever claimed the word " rapture " was in the Bible, only a description of such an event. To continue to associate the word rapture as not being IN God's Word and so to dismiss it is an ERROR - for " rapture " is just a one word, a description of an event where SOME Christians are spared the Mark of the Beast for reasons God knows. And an event that I remain considering, but am leaning toward as valid.

    Also, I never said Christ's Church would or would not go through Tribulation. If you are attempting to link me to that.. then you are trying to put words in my mouth that I have not said, and words that I have no intention of claiming.

    Your posts of any scripture you believe discounts an event that has been described as a Rapture excludes all the scriptures that point to an event that could be best described AS a rapture. Linking scripture to achieve the desired outcome one wishes is not the way to discover truth. Most people on this forum (and accross the world ) chase scripture in order to link together verses to demonstrate the belief they desire instead of the truth God has given. I gave his that one can understand why they do not see me doing such, instead i chase the wisdom contained in God's Word - or at least try to. So, please do not assume i consider myself beyond correction.... are you?
    My tale is still waggin'
     
  11. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Vet, Your words: "The dimensions of Ezekiel's temple reveal that it has NEVER to this day been built,"

    In Ez. 40-46, the dimensions are really a lot smaller than I believe any millennial temple will be and in no manner of interpretation could it equal the NJ.
     
  12. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    The word "rapture" comes to us from the Latin word "rapio," which itself comes from the instances of "harpazo" in the Greek.

    The reason you don't find the word "rapture" in the Bible is because we translate "harpazo" into "gather up," and we don't go from the Greek to the Latin to the English. If we did, we'd take "rapio" and translate it to "rapture."
     
  13. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    That is talking about the pre-trib rapture, For the simple facts
    [1]When Jesus comes, No one will be taken, He comes to reign, Not to take people.
    [2]If it wasn't the pre-trib rapture, and the Church went through the tribulation, The Church will know exactly when the Lod will come., Yet Jesus said no one will know.

    You tribulation doctrine is a false teaching that the Bible doesn't suport.
    There are to many pre-trib rapture scriptures for it not to be true.

    Why in the world do people want to tribulate when both Jesus and Paul,[Inspires by God], Said we world escape the coming tribulation??.

    If you read through the book of Revelation, You would see that the Church isn't mentioned after Chapter 3.
    And Capter 4 v1, Jesus said He would show John what woud happen hereafter, [After the Church has gone].

    Jesus said in Matt 25: 1--13, That Five Christians will be ready and go up in the pre trib rapture,
    And Five would miss the pre-trib rapture.
    The Five that go up in the rapture, Will go to the marriage feast, Which in in heaven during the tribulation period.

    And if you link that with, "One shall be taken",
    That could mean only half the Christian will go up in the rapture, May be those who are ready and watching.
     
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    God's Israel IS... His Church, made up of both believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, together as one Body in Christ Jesus.

    The Zechariah 14 timing is about the "day of the Lord" with Christ's second coming. The latter part of the chapter is Millennium timing, not after... the Milennium. The Living Waters of Ezekiel 47 are to manifest on earth during Christ's Milennium reign with His elect. That REIGN is UPON the earth, which is where that "camp of the saints" of Rev.20 will be.

    The "caught up" idea of 1 Thess.4 is about Christ gathering His Church to be with Him. And per the Zech.14 Scripture, Christ is coming BACK to this earth, to Jerusalem. That's where the gathering of His Church will be, and it will occur only at one specific time per God's Word, right after the tribulation He taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

    Sounds like you're terribly confused.

    Like I said, man's ideas of a pre-trib or pre-wrath 'rapture' will NEVER align with the 'harpazo' event written in God's Word. So it's not about the word 'rapture' itself like some here are trying to make it. It's about the events of Christ's coming to gather His Church to Him, to where He will be, and where's He coming to? Back to this earth in like manner how He ascended into Heaven, as per Acts 1. The Zechariah 14 Scripture is the major witness of that second coming.


    And you are still... "wondering" about it, simply because you've chosen to listen to men's doctrines about it instead. I don't wonder about it, because I keep to God's Word about it.

    The "caught up" (Greek harpazo) idea is also shown by Paul in 2 Cor.12 about the one that was caught up to the third heaven, to paradise, and lived to tell about it. I believe Paul was speaking of himself since he was once stoned and left for dead. It was his spirit that was "caught up", not his flesh, which is why he said whether in the body or out of the body, he didn't know, but God knew. Likewise with the harpazo event in 1 Thess.4, it won't be our flesh that's caught up to be with Christ, but our spirit in our spiritual body that Paul said will manifest on the "last trump" with Christ's coming. When we are 'changed' to that body we are then... at that point within the heavenly dimension, even while still here on earth. It is in... that kind of body which will allow us to be gathered by Christ to Jerusalem where He returns per Zech.14.

    But what are the pre-trib and pre-wrath ideas of man teaching instead? The pre-trib idea teaches that Christ gathers His Church off the earth PRIOR to the tribulation, brings them to Heaven while the wicked are left-behind on earth to go through the tribulation. That idea has a HUGE problem with misalignment with God's Word, simply because the "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" is REQUIRED for the gathering, and that event per Paul doesn't happen until Christ's return to END the tribulation on the "day of the Lord."

    The pre-wrath ideas of men today varry from being almost the same as the pre-trib idea, or on the idea that Christ gathers us right after the tribulation, takes us to Heaven, leaving the wicked on earth to suffer God's cup of wrath. Huge problem with that idea of men also compared to God's Word, simply because that cup of wrath is poured out on the SAME day of The LORD when Jesus comes to gather His Church and both the just and unjust on earth at the "last trump" go through Paul's change at the twinkling of an eye.



    Since that word 'rapture' is NOT in God's Word, and... men associate doctrines with it that do NOT align with God's Word, then we shouldn't want to push it, because it will only confuse weaker brethren that haven't yet discerned the actual gathering events as written in God's Word.


    The place you have put Christ's coming in your Daniel chart if I recall, suggests you may heed a pre-trib rapture theory. The tribulation is for the latter half of Daniel's final "one week", a 1260 day period. Didn't you place Christ's gathering the Church just prior to that 1260 day period?
     
  15. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Veteran wrote: " Since that word 'rapture' is NOT in God's Word, and... men associate doctrines with it that do NOT align with God's Word, then we shouldn't want to push it, because it will only confuse weaker brethren that haven't yet discerned the actual gathering events as written in God's Word "

    Just because that particular word (rapture) is not in the Bible does not mean it cannot, be used. To claim that, is to also say... Airplanes, helicopters. computers, cell phones, automobiles, tanks, missiles, televisions, radios, satelites, telescopes, rifles, pistols and this list goes on and on and on... cannot be included in anything to do with Revelation or Tribulation aslo for those words are not in the Written Word. As far as confusing weaker brethern, becasue I telll there is a different purpose for the Rapture than men's doctrines claim and becasue it is for those who cannnot opt to deny the beast's mark... it certainly will not confuse those who cannot choose anyway. And, by the way, what if you are wrong?
    Do i decree that there is absolutely a RAPTURE? - Nope, although I am pretty sure I understand and teach it correctly.

    You have claimed this is supposed to be Jesus coming to claim his church, thus putting the Church back into this, but I never said the Rapture os a gathering of Christ's Church. I have left that open for God to tell or show me. You can try to link the rature with the church, but if you do so.. you did it not me. There is a number of instances you have tried to link me with that I did not claim a connection with, so when you do that,. you do it... not me.

    If you link a trump to an event, you have done that, not I. If you link an event the the opening of a seal, you have done that not I. There is a reason I did not link trumps nor seals to events not directly specified by the trump or seal opening. I wish to remain as un-assuming as possible.

    Do you think you are absolutely right - if so check again. YES indeed it could confuse those who are taught a rapture will spare them and it does not becasue men's doctrine teaches all Christians go in the Rapture, However, I do not teach that. I teach to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Please stop trying to align me with the teachings of "men's doctrine" that is an error. To the best of my knowledge I am the only one that teaches the Rapture is not for all Christians, but rather for those unable to choose for what ever reason as God wills.

    Also, it matters not to me whether those taken in a rapture leave their body behind or not, so I have never claimed they are taken along with their body or without their body. As far as the positioning of the trump goes... I never positoned any trump along with the rapture, i left that event open as well.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You eluded what I said... again. ONCE everytinhg is known...(after Armageddon) if there is a raptue then Christians will align properly with this event, if there is no rapture then Christians will align themselves with a no rapture event. You said they will never get it right... that was an error. Since you re-affirmed this "NEVER" it is then your claim that AFTER this truth is known men will still not get it ? quit.that is an error. Am i not expressing this clear enough?

    I have NEVER claimed a pre-trib raptire because I believe in a mid-trib rapture... for reasons I have outlined concerning those who could not defend themselves against the Mark of the Beast. With that a rapture has a necessity, aand without a rapture these defenseless people are lost, unless you have some other miracle cure to save them. I suppose you are now going to attack how someone could be defenseless? - That dog won't hunt either. Actuallyy I believe this rapture would transpire after the Abomination of Desolation and right before God blesses all wwho are left, according to Daniel 12:12. See it is the only time i God's Word that God blesses those that curse him and those that are "left behind." Blessing those that curse you is something God asks us to do, but has never before been done by scripture except in Daniel 12:12.

    I placed Christ's coming at the time he is re-born then ascends to Heaven, then returns with ten thousand angels to do battle at Armageddon. I have offered no connection for Jesus to return to and on earth to do the rapture thing for as I figure it, he needs only call the people up.

    If i was to venture a guess, I would say the 7 trumps begin with the start of Tribulation and last until about mid-term of Tribulaton. Then the 7 angels with vials take place from about mid-term of Tribulattion until Armageddon. But, at this point.. this is my guess.
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    So in your view, does Christ gather the saints prior to the latter 1260 half of Daniel's one week?
     
  17. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    First of all you speak of Saints, I never claimed those taken in the Rapture are Saints. As far as the gathering of the Saints, I have not addressed that issue in this forum. In my studies I found no proof those taken in the rapture are to be classified as Saints. That classification of them taken being Saints is of men's doctrine... not mine. This does not mean they are not Saints, only tht since I have no proof of it, I so not call them Saints. As far as when the rapture thing transpires, I expect it AFTER mid-term of Tribulation as I have said many times. This means that i do allow that Saints may be taken in the rapture.. also. For I have no problem that many who ARE Saints in God's eyes could be spared even the need to deny the Beast's Mark as God so chooses.
     
  18. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Well, the Church then, since you evidently have some problem with regarding the Church as Biblical "saints".

    If you believe the tribulation period is the full 7 ("one week") of Daniel 9:27, divided into two 1260 day periods, then your mid-term rapture IS... the Pre-trib Rapture theory of men, since the actual tribulation is the latter half 1260 day period per both Daniel and Revelation.
     
  19. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, teleiosis.

    Sorry, but the "blessed hope" is NOT the rapture! It is the RESURRECTION! It is from Titus 2:13 referring back to Titus 1:2! And, in Titus 2:13, Paul said we were to look for or anticipate both the "blessed hope" (the Happy Assurance) of the resurrection and the "glorious appearing of the Great God and of our Rescuer, Yeshua` haMashiach!" Those words "glorious appearing" (Greek: "epifaneian tees doxees" = "the bright conspicuousness") are not about some "secret rapture!" They are about the SECOND COMING!
     
  20. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Considering the rapture occurs immediately after the resurrection, it entails both. You can deny the rapture all you want but it's only denying scripture. Heaven is a place and the destination for God's church. We may visit the earth from time to time but the earth is for the Israeli remnant and the rest of humanity that survives the sheep and goat judgment. We have no need to be here at all except for those who may rule and reign with Christ and even then a 24/7 presence on earth will be hardly necessary.
     
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