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Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Love123, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Anyone who thinks that Paul is saying the Thessaloians thought they were going through the Great Tribulation and that was in error is delusional. Paul wrote to them because some of them thought the Day of the Lord had already come.

    Anyone who claims that holding an eshatogical position other than Alan's makes that person make Jesus or Paul deceiving liars is also delusional.

    The problem with you and other eschatologial positions some hold here is that you cling to it so strongly that you warp what you read to fit your thinking.

    The problem this holds for Pre-Tribbers is that you will have your great expectation dashed when you finally realize you're IN the second half of the one 'seven' and the Great Tribulation is upon you and Jesus is nowhere in sight. Then you might look for Him in all the wrong places and you might think faith has failed you because you mistake your eschatology for truth and have really placed your faith in your own thinking instead of trusting God can save you when your life is forfeit.
     
  2. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    Anyone who can read the Bible will know why Paul wrote the the Thessalonians.
    2 Thess 2: 1.
    The coming of the Lord, The physical coming to reign.
    V1,AND our gathering unto Him, [A different seperate event] The Spirittal coming to pre-trib rapture His people.

    V2Don't be shaken or troubled by any words or letters about going through the trubulation.

    V3,That day shall not come,[ What day]??. The physical coming of Jesus with His repatured saints to reign.
    V3, Until there is a departing from the earth by the Church, [The pre-trib rapture].
    V3, Then the anti-christ can come.
    V6-7, The Church is holding the anti-christ back, And he cannot come until the Church has been taken to heaven.


    There is one scripture that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the Church is raptured before the tribulation period.
    And that is, Jesus said no one will know when Jesus is coming back,
    If the Church was to go through the tribulation, We would know exactly how lond we will have left.

    NOTE, V 3, & 6-7, The Church has to go before the anti-christ can come, One reason is,
    Jesus is coming back for a glorious Church, One just like Jesus in character, power and authority.
    If the devil couldn't handle ONE Jesus, How is he going to handle millions just like Jesus??. He can't, Thats why the Church has to go first.
     
  3. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Alan, you are seeiously deluded. 2Th 2:2 does not mention the "tribulation" but the Day of the Lord.
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    You're completely wrong about all that, and you even have it OPPOSITE than the Scripture. Time to go to the Scripture and show how you are a FAKE...


    II Th 2:1-12
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,


    The subject is the time of the coming of Christ Jesus and the gathering of His Church.


    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    Paul was warning them to not be troubled by the words of others, nor by letters passed as if they were from Paul and the other Apostles, and that shows there were FAKES among them passing bad info about the timing. Paul then says "the day of Christ" (i.e., day of the Lord per Greek) is at hand, near.


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Paul warns to not let anyone deceive them, FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT... . What exactly does that phrase "... for that day shall not come, except..." mean? It is a conditional phrase. It means a certain condition MUST be met for "that day" of The Lord to come which is when Jesus returns and gathers His Church.

    So now, what are the conditions Paul specifies?

    a. "there come a falling away first"
    b. "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

    BOTH of those things MUST be fulfilled BEFORE our Lord Jesus Christ will return and gather His Church. Apostle Paul then continues what he meant about that "man of sin" and "son of perdition", as to what he is to do...


    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Paul mentions that man of sin in relation to his coming to sit in the temple of God which is meant in the physical, a literal temple in Jerusalem, for that is the only location a false one could try to sit and play Christ (because of prophecy about the coming Messiah). This coming false one is to exalt himself "above all that is called God, or that is worshipped". That means exalting himself over ALL RELIGIONS ON EARTH, over ALL peoples.

    The early Church fathers declared this one as the Antichrist that comes in the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. They were correct too, because this specific "man of sin" fits all the Daniel and Revelation prophecy about a false one exalting himself above God for the end of this world.


    5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    Paul then reminds them that he already covered this matter before with them.


    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

    This idea of the false one being "revealed in his time" is for those who are given by God to know who he will be. This withholdeth is about the angel that now withholds him until its time for his release upon the earth at the end. When the "man of sin" is released upon the earth, then he will be revealed to Christ's elect. The rest of the world will not realize nor understand.


    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


    The "mystery of iniquity" subject is about the Antichrist's servants on earth that knowingly work for him. It's been in effect for a long time now, over 5,000 years even. Per Daniel 10, the angel tells Daniel that the angel Michael is the only one that holdeth with him in these things, the prince of Persia there being put as an anti-type for Satan.

    When the one who is doing the withholding is taken out of the way, then "that Wicked" will be revealed on the earth, whom Christ shall consume with The Spirit of His mouth at His second coming.


    Son Of Perdition Title:

    Question: who has ALREADY been judged and sentenced to 'perdition' in the future "lake of fire" event? None but Satan and his angels have so far. NO flesh man has been judged and sentenced yet! Judas was labeled with that "son of perdition" title by Christ in John 17:12, but Judas was already dead when Paul gave this. And in John 6:70 our Lord Jesus said Judas "is a devil", connecting that "son of perdition" title directly to the Devil himself.

    So does our Lord Jesus need to whack us upon the head with that DIRECT ASSOCIATION of "son of perdition" with the Devil?


    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    (KJV)


    Where else have we heard of this false one coming to work great signs, wonders, and miracles upon the earth for the end to deceive the whole world with? Our Lord Jesus warned about 'a pseudo-Christ' in Matt.24 and Mark 13 ("false Christs" phrase per Greek), and in Rev.12-13 about the "dragon" and "another beast".


    It's the charlatans that hate that order which Apostle Paul laid out there, the very ones like Alan that has come here doing the SAME THINGS as those deceivers which Paul was warning the Thessalonians about!
     
  5. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    What do you think the anti-christ will do??... he causes the trubulation AFTER THE CHURCH HAS GONE.
    Then the "Day of the Lord" will come.

    For the Biblical and Greek truth, READ MY POST.


    You said,
     
  6. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    I

    You've got to stop calling people liars and saying that we are calling Jesus a deceitful liar. That's un-Christlike.
    Jesus said that the gathering occurs after the tribulation.
    I believe the Words of Jesus. He said...

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days... then shall appear the sign of the Son of man...and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect.

    What you've done is accept the prophecy teachings of the 'experts.'
     
  7. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Alan, you have serious problems in reading comprehension, word meaning, and wrapped up around wishful thinking then leads you to interpretations 180 degrees out from what is written and that in turn has you lashing out at those who are trying to correct you.

    We all think differently here and no two agree wholly, but when so many oppose you, you might want to reconsider your position... or go to Pre-Trib website like Rapture Ready where opposing views are not allowed.
     
  8. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Most pre-trib forums won't even allow post or pre-wrath believers in!
     
  9. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    It is a fact that anyone who believes the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Buible, Or they ARE calling God and Jesus lying deceivers.

    The "Elect" what you quoted,Are the elect Jews, Not the elect Church, Othewise Jesus was telling lies.

    If you knew the Bible, You would know that there are the,"Elect Jews", And the ,"Elect Church", And you would know when the Bible is talking about the Elect Jews, And when it tis talking about the elect Church.
     
  10. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, AlanforChrist.

    [1] Yes, there ARE three heavens (skies): The heaven or sky before the Flood, the heaven or sky in which we currently breathe, and the heaven or sky after the Fire called the "New Heaven" in Revelation (2 Peter 3:3-13). You are wrong about Jesus saying "He is coming back to take us to Heaven." I'm not calling HIM a liar; it's YOU who has the problem, and if the shoe fits,..."

    [2] Apparently not! Check it again, preferably without prejudice!

    [3] No, there's not! I challenge you to prove that there IS such a thing as a "great tribulation period." The whole concept is FABRICATED!
     
  11. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    That's the line that all pre-tribbers fall for. Other than the LIES comment.

    The truth is...
    The word "elect", always refers to Christians in the New Testament and never to non-Christian Jews.

    The word elect is 'eklektos' and is Strong's # 1588 which means...

    1) picked out, chosen
    a) chosen by God,
    1) to obtain salvation through Christ
    a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
    2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
    3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

    The word elect and chosen are the same word. It's the word 'eklektos' is used in the following verses where it always means Christians... whether Jew or gentile! Look at them and notice these verses are talking about christians whether Gentile or Jew.

    Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
    John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
    John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
    Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
    Romans 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.1 Corinthians 1:27-28
    Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
    James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.5:13 and,
    Revelation 17:14 ¶These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

    1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

    Evangelical pre-tribbers have always argued that since the word elect (chosen) always means Jews in the Old Testament, it means Jews in the New Testament. Of course that was the case in the OT because the church had not yet been formed, and the OT was written mostly in Hebrew and Aramaic. AND, there is no longer Jew or gentile after the crucifiction. The NT Greek text shows that 'elect' denotes CHRISTIANS and there's no getting around it!

    In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation even up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

    That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
     
  12. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    I know my Bible and I know the Elect, the believing Church, go through Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus, who is no liar, and that we're going to be nearly wiped out, but some will see Jesus come on the clouds.
     
  13. tgwprophet

    tgwprophet New Member

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    Retrobyter... Merry Christmas to you and yours.

    You wrote: " [3] No, there's not! I challenge you to prove that there IS such a thing as a "great tribulation period." The whole concept is FABRICATED "

    The word Tribulation is located in the Bible so your exception must be either to the inclusion of the word "great" or "period." As far as "great" being inclusive,,, any tribulation time that is vastly worse than others before should or could be described as great so that should not be the problem. this bring us to "period" as the desqualifier word right? Since this final time of Tribulation has a defined begining and a defined ending, I see no problem with this Great Tribulation Period as not qualified. So please explain.
     
  14. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, kaoticprofit.
    LOL! You're doing it again! You're making it a label that only applies to "Christians" because you only apply the verses you've listed to "Christians!" Ever hear or sing Edward Perronet's hymn "All Hail the Power"? What does the second verse say? "Ye chosen seed of Israel's race, Ye ransomed from the fall; Hail Him who saves you by His grace, And crown Him Lord of all; Hail Him who saves you by His grace, And crown Him Lord of all!"

    And, so that you don't think this is talking about the "church" or "Christians," the words stem from the Tanakh (the Old Testament):

    1 Chronicles 16:7-22
    7 Then on that day David delivered first this psalm to thank the Lord into the hand of Asaph and his brethren.
    8 Give thanks unto the Lord, call upon his name, make known his deeds among the people.
    9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.
    10 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord.
    11 Seek the Lord and his strength, seek his face continually.
    12 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;
    13 O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.
    14 He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
    15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
    16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
    17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
    18 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance;
    19 When ye were but few, even a few, and strangers in it.
    20 And when they went from nation to nation, and from one kingdom to another people;
    21 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes,
    22 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
    KJV


    Psalm 105:1-15
    1 O give thanks unto the Lord; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.
    2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
    3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord.
    4 Seek the Lord, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
    5 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;
    6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
    7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
    8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
    9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
    10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
    11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
    12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
    13 When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
    14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
    15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
    KJV


    Isaiah 41:8-11
    8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
    9 Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
    10 Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
    11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
    KJV


    Isra'el is God's "chosen seed"; always has been, always will be! We who are Gentiles can participate in that as being adopted into the Commonwealth (the Citizenship) of Isra'el (Eph. 2), being grafted into the Olive Tree of the Lord Yeshua`s Kingdom "BESIDE Isra'el," "WITH Isra'el," or "AMONG the natural branches" (Rom. 11), but NEVER INSTEAD of Isra'el!

    You're right about "eklektos" meaning "chosen" or "elect"; however, don't make the mistake of limiting yourself to a simple lexicon or to shallow teachings. The word simply refers to ANYONE chosen or elected or selected by ANYONE ELSE! There's nothing especially "holy" about the word!
     
  15. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Just for clarification purposes, I believe the only "elect" among the jews are those who come to salvation in Christ. In the last days, the only "elect" of Israel that will be saved is the righteous remnant which includes the 144,000. Those of Israel who are not in that minority will be judged as goats in the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 and perish accordingly, imo. The "all" of Isreal from Rom. 11 is that only the righteous remnant is left which why at that time "all" that's left of Israel will be saved.
     
  16. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Well, it may be "clearer" to you in your soteriology/eschatology, but you've "muddied the waters" when it comes to Scripture. Isra'el (not "Isreal") is Yeshua`s FAMILY! All of His disciples and all of the Jews were ALL cousins to Him! Furthermore, you must also realize that they are ALL the children of Isra'el, no matter to which tribe they belong in particular. How would you like it if some of your children were saved but others were not? Now, I suppose if there are some that are truly sons of bliya`al (Belial), worthlessly evil children, they would have that choice to remain unconnected, but most of the children of Isra'el WANT to be in God's good graces again!

    Furthermore, that is NOT what Paul said in Romans 11!

    He said,

    Pros Roomaious 11:26-29
    26 Kai houtoos PAS Israeel sootheesetai, kathoos gegraptai, "Heexei ek Sioon ho Rhuomenos, apostrepsei asebeias apo Iakoob.
    27 Kai hautee autois hee par' emou diatheekee, hotan afeloomai tas hamartias autoon."
    28 Kata men to euaggelion echthroi di' humas, kata de teen eklogeen agapeetoi dia tous pateras;
    29 ametameleeta gar ta charismata kai hee kleesis tou Theou.


    To/For Romans 11:26-29
    26 And so ALL Isra'el shall-be-saved, like it-is-written, "There-shall-come out-of Tsiown the Deliverer, shall-turn-away ungodliness from Ya`aqov.
    27 And this to-them the near my covenant, whenever I-shall-remove the sins of-them."
    28 According-to this-one the good-news hated through you, according-to but the choosing/selection loved through the Patriarchs;
    29 irrevokable for the gifts and the calling of-the God.

    Kick against the ox-goads all you want, but God LOVES ISRA'EL! That word for "Deliverer," btw, is One who "rushes to the rescue!" And, that is PRECISELY what Yeshua` will do!
     
  17. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    God is not a respecter of persons. Israel had it's chance and it is only by the grace of God that there will be a righteous remnant. Would I like it if I had unsaved children? No, but they make their own choices once they reach adulthood. All we can do is pray. Christ did all that He could do at the cross but the result of their unbelief is that the vast majority of unsaved Israelites and gentiles will be eternal damnation. Those of Israel who will be saved are saved only because of their repentance on an individual level. Other than that they are like any other anti-Christ nation. The Time of Jacob's Trouble is all about judgment, not salvation but hopefully some will realize the truth and come to salvation as a result of that judgment.
     
  18. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Trekson.

    Well, thankfully, the Messiah can do a lot more than we can. He doesn't have to just "pray." Come to think of it, we can do a little more than just "pray," too! We can do our best to introduce our children to the Messiah throughout the time they are under our care! See, again, it is the definition of "salvation," particularly as it applies to prophecy, that has tripped you up. The word means "RESCUE!"

    If you see someone trapped in a burning building, do you wait for their invitation to come and rescue him or her? NO! You jump right in and get the job done, if you can!

    Likewise, when Isra'el is under siege by her surrounding neighboring countries - countries who are MORE than willing to drive her into the sea and take the Land given to her by God Himself - Yeshua` won't waste time to rescue them! He will attack them with ZEAL! They'll just be so many grapes in a winevat! They are already IN "the time of Ya`aqov's trouble!" And, yes, it has been a refiner's pot, but they are already beginning to return to God and are learning about the Messiah!

    They are coming back to Him in DROVES! THOUSANDS are coming to seminars about the Messiah Yeshua` provided by the Messianic Jews - many right there in Isra'el!

    That's another little bit of Romans 11 you've neglected:

    Romans 11:30-32
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
    KJV


    Earlier, Paul said,

    Romans 11:19-25
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    KJV


    You and others like you have a RESPONSIBILITY to win the Jews at any cost! HOWEVER, it is THEIR OWN "olive tree," not originally yours! Now consider this: If God has really given up on the Isra'elites, then what sort of assurance do YOU have that He won't give up on YOU?! As I quoted in my last post,...

    Romans 11:26-29
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    KJV


    Please pardon the racial comment, but God is NOT an "Indian-giver!" American Indians or Native Americans, whichever you prefer, used to be very practical and didn't have many possessions, unless they were to consume them. Thus, when an American Indian used to give something to someone, they didn't think of it as a true gift, relinquishing possession; they thought of it more as a LOAN! They would give it to you long enough for you to use it and then they would take it back from you at the end of the day! That was their way!

    God is not like that at all! When He gives the gift of eternal life, it is ETERNAL life! When God made a promise to Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov, those were ETERNAL promises on which He would NOT renig!

    It that doesn't line up with what you believe, then maybe it's time to change what you believe!

    I'll leave you with this thought: Once again, if God doesn't keep His promises to Isra'el, then what assurance do you have that He will keep His promises to you? On the other hand, if God will keep His promises to you, then you can count on God keeping His promises to Isra'el, too.
     
  19. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Retro,

    You're at it again. i.e. complicating and fabricating things! You're using a passage out Psalms,1 Chronicles, and Isaiah to tell me that the word elect in Mathew means Jews? I would have thought you to have a smarter hermeneutic than that! It's only common sense that the word chosen indicates Israel in the Old Testament. In every instance where the word 'eklektos' is used it always refers to Christians in the NT. We aren't talking about a song and we aren't in the Old Testament. Every verse I quoted indicates Christians whether Jew or gentile. I have no problem that Israel is God's chosen seed in the OT. SORRY! But that's not what the word 'eklektos' indicates in the New Testament! Thayer's, who I would believe over anyone on this forum, say's about 'eklektos'...To obtain salvation through Christ; hence Christians are called the chosen or elect of God. You can read more here...http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV Eklektos comes from a word meaning to select or chose.
    Everywhere I look at the word it never indicates Jews. And the way the word 'eklektos' is used elsewhere in the NT, it always refers to Christians. I would have thought THAT IF ANYONE you would know better!

    The burden of proof is upon you to show me one verse in the NT where 'eklektos' refers to Jews.

    I did a little homework for you.

    The two links below show every place where the word elect or chosen 'EKLEKTOS' is used in the NT.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=elect%2A+G1588&t=KJV

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=chosen%2A+G1588&t=KJV

    You're on!
     
  20. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    Hi Retro, Your words: “See, again, it is the definition of "salvation," particularly as it applies to prophecy, that has tripped you up. The word means "RESCUE!"

    Yes, It does sometime mean “rescue” but in most cases it is the “rescue” of the spirit/soul, not the physical.

    Your example: “If you see someone trapped in a burning building, do you wait for their invitation to come and rescue him or her? NO! You jump right in and get the job done, if you can!”

    Ands that is just what Christ did! The whole world was in trouble of burning and He went to the cross to provide a way of salvation. However, He won’t drag them out kicking and screaming, He allows them to make the choice. “Narrow is the way and few there are that find it.” He has provided the way to escape, aka, the rescue.

    Your words: “Likewise, when Isra'el is under siege by her surrounding neighboring countries - countries who are MORE than willing to drive her into the sea and take the Land given to her by God Himself - Yeshua` won't waste time to rescue them! He will attack them with ZEAL! They'll just be so many grapes in a winevat!”

    He’ll come at the appointed time and not one minute sooner. He has already provided an avenue of safety for His chosen and that’s all that He’s concerned with. The prophecies call for 1/10 of Jerusalem to be destroyed by an earthquake and for 2/3’s to perish in judgment. There is no rescue coming for them!

     
    Your words: “They are already IN "the time of Ya`aqov's trouble!"

    Sadly, they are not. When it comes it will make the holocaust seem like small potatoes.

    Your words: “And, yes, it has been a refiner's pot, but they are already beginning to return to God and are learning about the Messiah! They are coming back to Him in DROVES! THOUSANDS are coming to seminars about the Messiah Yeshua` provided by the Messianic Jews - many right there in Isra'el!”

    Well hopefully that’s good news but if they’re being taught by Messianics who still believe in law keeping then they’ve only gone from the fire into the frying pan.

    Your verses, words in parenthesis mine: No, not neglected, just put in proper perspective

    Romans 11:30-32
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy ( by our witness) they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all (Jew and gentile) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Jew and gentile).

    Your words: “You and others like you have a RESPONSIBILITY to win the Jews at any cost! HOWEVER, it is THEIR OWN "olive tree," not originally yours! Now consider this: If God has really given up on the Isra'elites, then what sort of assurance do YOU have that He won't give up on YOU?! As I quoted in my last post,…”

    I agree with your first sentence. I never claimed that God “gave up” on Israel, however He has provided there chance to escape judgment through the cross. There are no other chances. Even at the beginning of the millennium, it’s the “cross” way or the “goat” way!

    Your scripture: words in parenthesis mine.
    Romans 11:26-29
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (this has already been fulfilled by Christ) 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (upon repentance and salvation via the cross) 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance
    .
    This last verse means only that Israel will remain His chosen people and I never claimed otherwise but instead of including all the unsaved of Israel like many do, this “salvation” is only limited to the 1/3 of which the 144,000 are part of, imo. Thus all His promises will be kept, but solely to the righteous remnant of Israel, alone.

    Your words: “God is not like that at all! When He gives the gift of eternal life, it is ETERNAL life! When God made a promise to Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov, those were ETERNAL promises on which He would NOT renig!”

    No one is claiming that God will renig on anything. The spiritual promises started to be fulfilled at Pentecost and the land promises will be fulfilled through the righteous remnant, the “all” of Israel that will be left.
     
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