Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[101G]

The first period that must occur before we even get to the tribulation and wrath, is what Jesus referred to as the "the begining of sorrows", which I believe is the period we are starting to live through now.

I read your post, interesting. this part got my attention. Not saying that you are right or wrong, but consider this. Revelation 1:9 "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ". now, if what you said about the beginning of sorrows, then it must have passed before this writing of John . because he clearly said that he was in tribulation with his brothers and sister. the time of sorrows then must have already passed. not saying that you're right or wrong. but consider what John wrote and the apostle in their epistles.

second, in Matthew 24:29 & 30 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory". here clearly the Lord Jesus said "AFTER" the tribulation. so that remove any pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture notions. and the reason why I say no post tribulation rapture, because there will be two resurrection. scripture, Revelation 20:4 & 5"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection". so at least a 1,00 year will pass "AFTER" the tribulation when the SIGN of the Son of man is seen in heaven.


this should eliminate any rapture before the wrath of God. what's left is the rapture before the wrath or in wrath.
PCY

 

[GodsGrace]

You could start with (Deut. 4:23-31) "...When thou art in tribulation and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days...."

Stranger

I'll start with the word tribulation,
another poster is talking about wrath (I don't think this has to do with tribulation).

Tribulation could also mean troubles.
I wish you had posted something from the N.T.
I'll try this on my own...

 

[101G]

I'll start with the word tribulation,
another poster is talking about wrath (I don't think this has to do with tribulation).

Tribulation could also mean troubles.
I wish you had posted something from the N.T.
I'll try this on my own...

that's what Tribulation means, "Trouble".
Wrath is vengeance, punishment

2 Thessalonians 1:6 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day".

PCY

 

[Stranger]

I'll start with the word tribulation,
another poster is talking about wrath (I don't think this has to do with tribulation).

Tribulation could also mean troubles.
I wish you had posted something from the N.T.
I'll try this on my own...

I feel like I have offended you. My apologies if I have. I just believed this is the best way to start.

You can go to the New Testament first, but that won't help. If you want to establish that a Tribulation period will exist, you have to begin in the Old Testament. Perhaps I shouldn't have said 'you could start with (Deut. 4:23-31)'. I should have said, 'you should start with (Deut. 4:23-31)'.

These verses are prophetic of what would happen to Israel when she forsakes God. Which we know of course that Israel did. As a result of her forsaking God, God will punish her by throwing her out of the land. (25-26) But, if Israel repents and turns back to the Lord, God would receive her back. (29,31) And it is when Israel is in tribulation in the latter days that these things will occur. (30)

The term 'latter days' or 'last days' speaks in Scripture to the time when God is finishing up His purpose for a certain people. See (Gen. 49:1), (Num. 24:14).

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

that's what Tribulation means, "Trouble".
Wrath is vengeance, punishment

2 Thessalonians 1:6 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day".

PCY

This sounds like Jesus coming back at the end of the world.
As to tribulation, I know it means troubles, but some speak about THE Tribulation, as if it's a specific time. I think any time could be a time of tribulation --- troubles.

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel like I have offended you. My apologies if I have. I just believed this is the best way to start.

You can go to the New Testament first, but that won't help. If you want to establish that a Tribulation period will exist, you have to begin in the Old Testament. Perhaps I shouldn't have said 'you could start with (Deut. 4:23-31)'. I should have said, 'you should start with (Deut. 4:23-31)'.

These verses are prophetic of what would happen to Israel when she forsakes God. Which we know of course that Israel did. As a result of her forsaking God, God will punish her by throwing her out of the land. (25-26) But, if Israel repents and turns back to the Lord, God would receive her back. (29,31) And it is when Israel is in tribulation in the latter days that these things will occur. (30)

The term 'latter days' or 'last days' speaks in Scripture to the time when God is finishing up His purpose for a certain people. See (Gen. 49:1), (Num. 24:14).

Stranger

No offense taken.
It just seems like such a big undertaking.
But one must start somewhere.
Just to clarify, you may have said this already,,, you believe Jesus is coming back one time (in the air) when He takes away the saved persons from the earth so they don't have to go through the "tribulation", and then again a second time at the end of the world?
(I think this is what you said)

 

[bbyrd009]

 

[101G]

This sounds like Jesus coming back at the end of the world.
As to tribulation, I know it means troubles, but some speak about THE Tribulation, as if it's a specific time. I think any time could be a time of tribulation --- troubles.

first thanks for the response. you're 100% correct. the Lord Jesus is coming at the end. remember his Parousia is not just a 24hr or one DAY event. for the Day of the can run many days.... 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".

as for tribulation/trouble, again you're 100% correct. understand, as long as evil is in the world unchained, we will have trouble. only when the 1,000 years began and expire there will be no tribulation/trouble. only after the 1,000 years, then the wrath.

PCY

 

[Stranger]

No offense taken.
It just seems like such a big undertaking.
But one must start somewhere.
Just to clarify, you may have said this already,,, you believe Jesus is coming back one time (in the air) when He takes away the saved persons from the earth so they don't have to go through the "tribulation", and then again a second time at the end of the world?
(I think this is what you said)

It truly is a big undertaking. But well worth it.

Yes, the Rapture occurs first which is the Church, the saved since (Acts 2), being called out to meet the Lord in the air. This is not really a Second Coming of Christ as He does not return to the earth at this time. It is His bride, the Church, being called out to meet Him.

Christ is taking the Church out to avoid the Tribulation. Not because He wants to keep the Church from trouble, but because the Tribulation is not for the Church. Yes the Church avoids the trouble of the Tribulation, but only because the Tribulation is not for the Church. There is a difference.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

the Lord Jesus is coming at the end

ergo missing in some fashion right now, by definition

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, the Rapture occurs first which is the Church, the saved

and how sweet it is, lemme tell you
rapture is heckn swell

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ is taking the Church out to avoid the Tribulation. Not because He wants to keep the Church from trouble, but because the Tribulation is not for the Church. Yes the Church avoids the trouble of the Tribulation, but only because the Tribulation is not for the Church. There is a difference.

ha, so weird how i can agree with every word here, yet we are talking about two completely diff things lol

 

[Naomi25]

I understand there are 'sensational' types of teachers and writers and then there are those that are more theological and precise in their presentation. You asked me for some of those and I gave you a list. Yet you didn't mention any as those you read or listened to. Hal Lindsey's book, 'The Late Great Planet Earth' is very good, but he states it is not a theological treatise in the introduction.

I understand finances can be tough. But, you express a strong desire to know about these 'last days' or eschatology. Years ago, not long after I got saved, I was without a job and broke. No computers back then. Books were the source of knowledge. I would visit Christian book stores and saw two books I really wanted, one of which pertained to the very subject we are talking about. I borrowed money from someone to buy them. But I lied about what the money was for as they would never have given it to buy those books. Then after I bought them, and would read them, I had to keep them hid from this individual else they would have known their money went for books. My point being your desire doesn't seem to match 'just going for the free stuff'. Just an observation.

The existence of the Tribulation does not hinge on the verses you are concerned with concerning 'wrath.' They add to it, yes. But they don't prove or disprove the Tribulation period. If you don't believe there is any Tribulation period, then of course 'wrath' cannot speak to such a period.
So, if we begin discussing this we are always going to revert back to our method of interpretation, especially of interpretation of prophecy. In other words, I cannot, nor can anyone else, prove to you Dispensational, pre-millennial doctrine using the Amillennialist's method of interpretation.

Wouldn't you agree?

Stranger

Okay, I see your point about the issue about the 'wrath' point not disproving the 7 year Tribulation. And you're right...they don't rely on it alone to prove of those years happening. But I think why they focus on the verses that say Christians aren't destined for wrath, is because they are trying to pinpoint or prove the timing of the Rapture. They say the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation because we are not destined for this wrath, which is poured out during that time.

As for your other points...I'm not quite sure how to take them. Are you suggesting that because I didn't look at the author's/preachers that you suggested...or go to the somewhat dubious lengths you went to to get certain books, that my motives are suspect? Do I need to give you a blow by blow of my circumstances and reasoning, and the logic behind each one, before you stop thinking I'm here to troll you?

I shouldn't need to, but here: I have a chronic illness, and even if I were well enough to work, I couldn't, because I have to homeschool both my children, who have autism and extreme anxiety. My husband can't hold down a job as he has autism, anxiety and sensory issues as well. So most weeks we wouldn't eat if it weren't for my wonderful parents helping us out. So when, and if, I have money, it tends to go on essentials, like food, bills, clothes, shoes, petrol...you know, that kind of thing. Things like this, which I find interesting and important, but hardly essential for my salvation....well...yeah. If I can't find it for free, or if it isn't gifted to me, then I can't get it. And I won't be judged for it. God has handed our family the situation we have, and we walk through it pretty darn well...with humor and faith in him. You can either answer the questions I've asked quite innocently with an open and interested mind, or you can decide I'm a troll and just leave. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

first thanks for the response. you're 100% correct. the Lord Jesus is coming at the end. remember his Parousia is not just a 24hr or one DAY event. for the Day of the can run many days.... 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come".

as for tribulation/trouble, again you're 100% correct. understand, as long as evil is in the world unchained, we will have trouble. only when the 1,000 years began and expire there will be no tribulation/trouble. only after the 1,000 years, then the wrath.

PCY

What 1,000 years?
Is this in a verse?
Probably Revelation. I don't think I've ever read that through once.
(oh my!)

 

[GodsGrace]

It truly is a big undertaking. But well worth it.

Yes, the Rapture occurs first which is the Church, the saved since (Acts 2), being called out to meet the Lord in the air. This is not really a Second Coming of Christ as He does not return to the earth at this time. It is His bride, the Church, being called out to meet Him.

Christ is taking the Church out to avoid the Tribulation. Not because He wants to keep the Church from trouble, but because the Tribulation is not for the Church. Yes the Church avoids the trouble of the Tribulation, but only because the Tribulation is not for the Church. There is a difference.

Stranger

Do you mean that while in this world we will have trouble...
So THAT trouble?

But the rapture is to avoid THE TRIBULATION?

I saw a movie with Nick Cage about the rapture.
Planes falling out of the sky.
Would God do such a thing? Actually be the cause of persons deaths?
I'm beginning to realize why I'm not too interested in this. It brings up more questions than it answers.

Why do you think this is important?
If it happens it happens,
if it doesn't, it doesn't.
Why is the rapture important?

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I see your point about the issue about the 'wrath' point not disproving the 7 year Tribulation. And you're right...they don't rely on it alone to prove of those years happening. But I think why they focus on the verses that say Christians aren't destined for wrath, is because they are trying to pinpoint or prove the timing of the Rapture. They say the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation because we are not destined for this wrath, which is poured out during that time.

As for your other points...I'm not quite sure how to take them. Are you suggesting that because I didn't look at the author's/preachers that you suggested...or go to the somewhat dubious lengths you went to to get certain books, that my motives are suspect? Do I need to give you a blow by blow of my circumstances and reasoning, and the logic behind each one, before you stop thinking I'm here to troll you?

I shouldn't need to, but here: I have a chronic illness, and even if I were well enough to work, I couldn't, because I have to homeschool both my children, who have autism and extreme anxiety. My husband can't hold down a job as he has autism, anxiety and sensory issues as well. So most weeks we wouldn't eat if it weren't for my wonderful parents helping us out. So when, and if, I have money, it tends to go on essentials, like food, bills, clothes, shoes, petrol...you know, that kind of thing. Things like this, which I find interesting and important, but hardly essential for my salvation....well...yeah. If I can't find it for free, or if it isn't gifted to me, then I can't get it. And I won't be judged for it. God has handed our family the situation we have, and we walk through it pretty darn well...with humor and faith in him. You can either answer the questions I've asked quite innocently with an open and interested mind, or you can decide I'm a troll and just leave. Thank you.

Would you mind telling me why YOU think the end times knowledge is important? Why should I be interested in this?

We have problems in my family too, including an autistic 17 year old granddaughter. There's enough for today, why would I want to study up about tomorrow??

 

[GodsGrace]

ergo missing in some fashion right now, by definition

I think he means Jesus is coming back in person.
Right now he's only here in Spirit.

 

[Stranger]

Okay, I see your point about the issue about the 'wrath' point not disproving the 7 year Tribulation. And you're right...they don't rely on it alone to prove of those years happening. But I think why they focus on the verses that say Christians aren't destined for wrath, is because they are trying to pinpoint or prove the timing of the Rapture. They say the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation because we are not destined for this wrath, which is poured out during that time.

As for your other points...I'm not quite sure how to take them. Are you suggesting that because I didn't look at the author's/preachers that you suggested...or go to the somewhat dubious lengths you went to to get certain books, that my motives are suspect? Do I need to give you a blow by blow of my circumstances and reasoning, and the logic behind each one, before you stop thinking I'm here to troll you?

I shouldn't need to, but here: I have a chronic illness, and even if I were well enough to work, I couldn't, because I have to homeschool both my children, who have autism and extreme anxiety. My husband can't hold down a job as he has autism, anxiety and sensory issues as well. So most weeks we wouldn't eat if it weren't for my wonderful parents helping us out. So when, and if, I have money, it tends to go on essentials, like food, bills, clothes, shoes, petrol...you know, that kind of thing. Things like this, which I find interesting and important, but hardly essential for my salvation....well...yeah. If I can't find it for free, or if it isn't gifted to me, then I can't get it. And I won't be judged for it. God has handed our family the situation we have, and we walk through it pretty darn well...with humor and faith in him. You can either answer the questions I've asked quite innocently with an open and interested mind, or you can decide I'm a troll and just leave. Thank you.

To try and answer your questions is to work from the middle and go out to both ends. Wrath is wrath. But if the wrath of God has been established as to a certain period of time we call the Tribulation, then depending on how it is used, it can speak to the Tribulation. Start from the beginning to establish a Tribulation first. That is the only way to answer your questions.

As I mentioned in post #44, (Deut. 4:23-31) is the place to start. Are we not talking about the nation of Israel here? Has Moses not prophecied tribulation upon an unbelieving and disobedient Israel and a promise of God's mercy when she returns.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

To try and answer your questions is to work from the middle and go out to both ends. Wrath is wrath. But if the wrath of God has been established as to a certain period of time we call the Tribulation, then depending on how it is used, it can speak to the Tribulation. Start from the beginning to establish a Tribulation first. That is the only way to answer your questions.

As I mentioned in post #44, (Deut. 4:23-31) is the place to start. Are we not talking about the nation of Israel here? Has Moses not prophecied tribulation upon an unbelieving and disobedient Israel and a promise of God's mercy when she returns.

Stranger

Stranger, this sounds like a reply to me.
Hope you're not getting me mixed up with Naomi??

(post 44 is mine, the quote you posted is Naomi's...)

 

[Stranger]

Do you mean that while in this world we will have trouble...
So THAT trouble?

But the rapture is to avoid THE TRIBULATION?

I saw a movie with Nick Cage about the rapture.
Planes falling out of the sky.
Would God do such a thing? Actually be the cause of persons deaths?
I'm beginning to realize why I'm not too interested in this. It brings up more questions than it answers.

Why do you think this is important?
If it happens it happens,
if it doesn't, it doesn't.
Why is the rapture important?

The Tribulation, as I have already indicated, is a specific time period. It is that period you asked me about and it is that period I was addressing. To prove a 'tribulation period' you must go to the Old Testament first as I did with (Deut. 4:23-31).

How many people did God kill in the Flood? Of course God would do such a thing. Understand that at the moment the Rapture takes place, every believer is immediately gone. Which means at that moment all who are on earth are non-believers. And the judgement of God is now upon the earth, which means any calamity caused by the Rapture is equally part of that judgement.

The Tribulation and Rapture and all end time events are important because they are part of the Revealed Word of God. If God has so deemed it important to reveal it to us, then surely we as Christians should deem it important to read, study, and know as much as we can about it.

Stranger