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Featured Two Ways of thinking about OSAS

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Mar 31, 2016.

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  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Those that do not believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they save themselves by not sinning in the flesh.

    Those that believe in OSAS are the ones that believe they are saved by what Jesus did on the cross and not by their ability to not sin in the flesh.

    Phil 3:3
    3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
    NKJV

    2 Cor 11:3-5
    3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted — you may well put up with it!
    Paul and False Apostles 5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
    NKJV
     
  2. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    Then someone could knock down your strawman and raise one of their own. Claiming those who support OSAS are complacent toward sin.
     
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  3. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    ...I don't agree with your statement. When we first got saved, we were forgiven of sin and washed with Christ's blood due to the fall because All men had sinned, even those who did not follow the law. We must now live according to Christ as new creations.

    Those who do not believe in OSAS do not think that they can save themselves by not sinning in the flesh. On the contrary, they are already saved. The difference is that they will repent of sin and ask for forgiveness when/if they find themselves being tempted and/or overcome by it. 1 John 2:1. Those who believe in OSAS do not think that the sins they commit need to be repented of nor do they believe they need to ask God for forgiveness because they rely Christ's redeeming work on the cross. Yet they forget that they are under a new covenant which requires both parties to participate. :huh:
     
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  4. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Neither present nor future can separate us, so why we grieve the Holy spirit Rom 8:38-39, Eph 4:30. How do we save ourselves. Has anyone done this.
     
  5. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    You seem to equate God's love for mankind with his requirement for us to live as new creatures in Christ. Romans 5:8. Christ died while we were still in our sins. The scriptures you have quoted are not consistent with his desire for us to obey his will. We are not trying to save ourselves, we are already saved. We are in a living relationship with Christ and as such, we continue to grow and mature and become like him in every way and less like the world.
     
  6. Dan57

    Dan57 Active Member

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    I don't think any Christian believes they can save themselves, we are all reliant on Christ for that.. But those who oppose OSAS believe that its possible for a person to fall away or have a change of heart, Judas Iscariot and King Saul were evidence of that. Its not a case of Jesus ever forsaking us, but rather the possibility of us abandoning him.. As long as that probability exist, the OSAS doctrine is misleading, because it insinuates that salvation is guaranteed whether we follow Christ or not.. I think it sends the wrong message, its a license to sin because it assures salvation no matter what we do, so go ahead and mock God or be a hypocrite, because there's no need to walk the walk.. Paul said "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). While we all sin, we must finish the race and stay faithful, but OSAS omits the necessity of doing that. Jesus said that 'those who love me keepeth my commandments', and for those who don't, his response was clear; "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS" (Matthew 7:23).
     
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  7. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    This is your conclusion, which doesn't represent any facts. OSAS is definitely not taught in the scripture and I believe that. As such I also believe that I did nothing to warrant my salvation. I was drawn to Christ, recognized the truth within the word of God about Him, and confessed him as my Savior, just as Rom 10:9-11 states. You apparently don't believe Paul here when he says what he does yet you'll use other scriptures by Paul and twist them around to support your dogma rather than see what they actually say in context. That is called the eisegesis.
     
  8. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I can't speak for all those who believe in OSAS, but I can stay this is not true. By the way, my position is more of one that believes in predestination than that of OSAS.

    i do acknowledge repentance for sins. But i also realize that afterwards my flesh is still going to sin whether i try to or not. Under grace, I don't worry about it beyond understanding that while all things are lawful, not all things are exedient. I govern what i do, but never chalk it up in the righteous column or the sin column.

    I have been freed from the law and as a result, from sin. I may still sin, but it is not imputed to me. What i do with this freedom is rejoice in Christ, learn of him and give thanks.
     
  9. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    If that is so then why would they have faith in, trust in, have confidence in, belief in, the work of Jesus on the cross? The work of Jesus sheading His blood to pay for the sins of the whole world.

    The ones that believe in OSAS know that they are living in sinful flesh and that it is impossible for mankind to keep God's perfect laws.

    It seems to me that those who DO NOT believe in OSAS think they can stop sinning by the efforts of their flesh.

    I am glad someone brought up the old "license to sin" strawman. Those that think they are keeping the law but if they commit a sin then all they have to do is get their repentance card punched and then they are good to go. "Repentance Card" = license to sin.
     
  10. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    FH,

    I also believe in predestination/election according to 1 Peter 1:1 (ESV) but I do not believe in OSAS. Instead, I consider that the Bible teaches perseverance of the saints (John 3:36 ESV; John 5:24 ESV).

    Oz
     
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Based on this post, i think we are not too different. But based on other posts I've read from you(unless my memory is failing me) we have some differences.

    I seem to recall you don't believe God predestines individuals. Only that gentiles were predestined to be accepted. Do i understand you correctly?

    As for perseverence of the saints, breaking down that phrase, i agree. Saints must persevere in faith (not the law). My point is that individuals are predestined to persevere.
     
  12. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Nm.... Duplicate post.
     
  13. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Richard,

    You provide not one piece of evidence to support your claims for these 2 sentences. When you speak about 'those', you need to provide us with proof from 'those' people. Otherwise, what you stated here is out of your mind and as stated by lforrest, it's a strawman logical fallacy.

    Pelagius, the heretic of the 4th-5th century, was challenged by St Augustine concerning Pelagius's false doctrines. One of Pelagius's heretical teachings was that human beings could save themselves without divine assistance. See an exposition HERE. Those today who might believe they can save themselves are following a heretical Pelagian teaching.

    Pope Francis has repeatedly warned the church about the dangers of Pelagianism. Richard, perhaps you can find those in the church who identify themselves as Pelagian and name them as those who support your first assertion of people saving themselves.

    Oz
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    FH,

    In my post I gave you this verse in support of predestination/election: 1 Peter 1:1 (ESV)

    What does this verse teach about predestination/election?

    Oz
     
  15. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Nothing on its own. Peter. Affirms his apostleship and addresses it it strangers in other regions. They were strangers who needed help. So what? If anyrhing, the fact that peter reached out to rhem affirms that they were predestined to hear.
     
  16. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    Well here's the thing: Based on what I've read on this forum there is a strong correlation.

    H. Richard made a blanket statement. But it fits. One only needs to read the posts to understand and see that folks who don't subscribe to OSAS are also pushing works being needed for salvation.
     
  17. StanJ

    StanJ Lifelong student of God's Word.

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    Your conclusion is wrong but I have no idea how you arrived at it. You're bringing up two totally separate issues and trying to make them into one, which also doesn't work. I know many people who are the OSAS and believe they are also sinless, and people that are not persuaded by the OSAS doctrine and still think they're sinless. There is indeed no license to sin and the Bible does not say we do not sin. The Bible is always right in every facet which means that if you find two verses that seem to disagree with one another or contradict one another they actually don't you just don't understand them. The best way to know what the message is is to accept that everything it says is truth and then find God's reality within that truth. It's not a formula it's a fact!
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Sorry FH,

    That's my error. I should have given you the first two verses, I Peter 1:1-2 (ESV) which read:

    What do these two verses teach about the nature of election/predestination?

    Oz
     
  19. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    This is another straw man argument. I do not support OSAS, but instead perseverance of the saints, and I do NOT support or push for works needed for salvation.

    If you are going to accuse people on this forum who do not support OSAS of believing in works salvation, then please quote them, along with the reference on CyB.

    Oz
     
  20. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I only said to read the posts and you will see the opinions. Is it not true?
     
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