Unbelievable

[Matthias]

We are not. I've said my piece in the long post. It stands. If you're not interested in engaging with it, that's your choice — but I'm not going to defend it in fragments against objections it already addresses. We see the board differently. That's okay.

I’m content to leave it where it is. Go in peace.

 

[Eternal Entity]

I’m content to leave it where it is.

Good.

Go in peace.

In peace I am. Going, I am not. :)

 

[Eternal Entity]

The Integrated War-Game Thesis (LLS Summary)​

1. The Frame​

• Creation is a designed arena — not a failed experiment, but a genuine contest with real choices, real consequences, and real stakes.
• The game exists — whether intended or not, this is the reality we are in now.
• The game has rules — moral order, consequence, and creaturely freedom.
• The game has players — states, scientists, believers, unbelievers, and spiritual powers.
• The game has an end — God will bring it to conclusion.

---

2. Everyone Is a Minister​

• The state bears the sword as God's minister — whether it knows it or not (Romans 13, Nero as example).
• Scientists, states, and even secular critics (like Tyson) serve God's purposes functionally — describing the board, developing tools, restraining evil — whether they acknowledge the Designer or not.
• Minister is defined by function, not intention — God uses everyone, knowingly or unknowingly, willingly or unwillingly (Assyria in Isaiah 10).

---

3. Faithful vs. Unfaithful Play​

• The difference is not whether God uses you — He uses everyone.
• The difference is whether you know you are being used, and whether you choose to play His way.
• Faithful play = conscious alignment with the Designer's revealed will.
• Ignorant play = serving God's purposes without knowing it (Tyson, scientists).
• Rebellious play = serving God's purposes against your own will (Assyria).

---

4. The Christian Calling Within the Game​

• Christians are called to a different move: serve, submit to the state, but do not wield the sword against fellow image-bearers.
• Desmond Doss is the living example — in the game, serving the state, saving lives, refusing to kill.
• The call is not to win the game by force — but to play faithfully, trusting the Designer to bring the endgame.

---

5. The Cosmic Layer​

• War in heaven suggests the conflict is not merely earthly — it is cosmic.
• This universe may have been created to transfer that war into a realm where creatures experience real consequences and make real choices.
• Suffering is not meaningless — it is revelatory and pedagogical.

---

6. Tyson's Role​

• Tyson's critique is valid but partial.
• He sees the game, describes its dangers, and offers a rational path forward — but that path is one move within the game, not an escape from it.
• His scientific rationalism is itself a belief system — and thus a move on the board.

---

7. The Thread's Participants as Players​

• Tyson — describes the board, warns of danger.
• Matthias — plays faithfully, witnesses to Christ, refuses the sword.
• ScottA — plays with conviction, claims direct knowledge.
• Wrangler — plays critically, rejects hypocrisy.
• Lambano — plays fatalistically, accepts inevitability.
• Eternal Entity — maps the game, names the players, identifies the Designer's work.

---

8. Final Thesis​

Everyone is on the board. Everyone serves God's purposes — whether they know it or not. The question is not whether you are in the game, but how you play — knowingly, willingly, and faithfully — trusting the Designer to bring about the end He has promised.

 

[Lambano]

I don’t believe that Jesus and the apostles had in mind Christians living in nation X killing Christians living in nation Y to control the disease

That is a symptom of the disease right there.

 

[Brakelite]

Okay...

I am not experiencing being human to judge but to understand.
.
Thoughts?

Enjoying your arguments, and kudos to you for presenting them well. I'm new to philosophical exchange, and am not really equipped intellectually to participate with the intent to prove a point. But I do have a few thoughts regarding a few things, for example, what you refer to as limits: quote...The game has rules - moral order, consequence, choice. I agree with you. God is sovereign. At no time in the sordid violent history of man has He abdicated His authority or given up His throne. His moral standard... His law... will always be the line beyond which if crossed, will at a later time bring consequences, both to individuals and nations. An example is the judgment against Israel for their stubborn participation in idolatry. This judgment was not imposed upon the nation because of jealousy, but out of His great love and greater purpose for mankind... the means by which man may be saved through the Cross. Without the vehicle through which the promised Saviour would come, God had to intervene often in human affairs to protect the lineage of Christ. Babylon's invasion of Israel, the destruction of the temple and the taking away of the prime members of Jewish society brought Israel to its knees, and a temporary repentance and a rebuilt nation. But the story didn't end there. There is a spiritual war going on to which the physical wars on earth are but a faint mirror image. Babylon was wavering between two masters. Nebuchadnezzar had to learn who the true Boss was. God in the end had to judge Babylon, even though Babylon was a vehicle through which He judged Israel, but Babylon took matters too far. It was never God's intention that Israel be utterly destroyed which the spiritual enemies of God had attempted to carry out. So God established a new servant, Cyrus to defeat Babylon and it was another Persian king who permitted Israel to return and rebuild the nation. There is war, yes. But there are rules of engagement... limits beyond which even Satan must not and cannot be crossed. History reveals where those lines are drawn and a wise student can discern God's power and control behind the scenes.
Quote...The call is not to win the game by force - but to play faithfully, trusting the Designer to bring the endgame.
Desmond Doss is the living example - in the game, serving the state, saving lives, refusing to kill. A faithful move within a violent board.
I agree with this. And yes, belief systems have brought great bloodshed upon mankind. And often with the illogical reality of Christians shooting at each other across the ditch. My only answer to that is the cross. Christ died for both sides. In the end justice will not only be done, but will be seen to be done. The only hope for the dilemmas that face us all is found in Christ and in His self sacrificial death that takes away all our sin and selfishness and pride, and gives us the power, such as was found in Desmond Doss, to live as Christ lived.

 

[Eternal Entity]

Enjoying your arguments, and kudos to you for presenting them well.

Acknowledged. Kudos returned.

I'm new to philosophical exchange, and am not really equipped intellectually to participate with the intent to prove a point.

Your intellect is fine. Your heart lights the path...

But I do have a few thoughts regarding a few things, for example, what you refer to as limits: quote...The game has rules - moral order, consequence, choice. I agree with you. God is sovereign. At no time in the sordid violent history of man has He abdicated His authority or given up His throne.

The "throne" is symbolic. The Source of all that is, cannot give up its place in the scheme of things, even if It could somehow want to.

His moral standard... His law... will always be the line beyond which if crossed, will at a later time bring consequences, both to individuals and nations. An example is the judgment against Israel for their stubborn participation in idolatry. This judgment was not imposed upon the nation because of jealousy, but out of His great love and greater purpose for mankind... the means by which man may be saved through the Cross. Without the vehicle through which the promised Saviour would come, God had to intervene often in human affairs to protect the lineage of Christ. Babylon's invasion of Israel, the destruction of the temple and the taking away of the prime members of Jewish society brought Israel to its knees, and a temporary repentance and a rebuilt nation. But the story didn't end there.

The story is never-ending...but yes, the part of the story being engaged with presently is an ongoing one.

There is a spiritual war going on to which the physical wars on earth are but a faint mirror image.

That is an idea. Like "how does one settle an argument between Eternal Entities equally sovereign in their own right - indestructible and immune to strikes from other such entities?
The answer is to build a simulation where said entities can fight it out in the most harmless manner while also perhaps revealing the strengths and weakness of said heavenly arguments.

The simulation is not to prevent destruction - because eternal entities cannot be destroyed. It is to demonstrate - to make visible what would otherwise remain hidden: the nature of the conflict, the character of the sides, and the consequences of alignment or opposition, played out in a realm where choices are real and their effects are tangible.

Babylon was wavering between two masters. Nebuchadnezzar had to learn who the true Boss was. God in the end had to judge Babylon, even though Babylon was a vehicle through which He judged Israel, but Babylon took matters too far. It was never God's intention that Israel be utterly destroyed which the spiritual enemies of God had attempted to carry out. So God established a new servant, Cyrus to defeat Babylon and it was another Persian king who permitted Israel to return and rebuild the nation.

And here we can see the role of God as The Master of War. THe overall director. There is no cheating and none required. The whole game and game-board was designed in that manner. The lower reveals to the higher wherein the reasoning of the higher is found wanting.

There is war, yes. But there are rules of engagement... limits beyond which even Satan must not and cannot be crossed. History reveals where those lines are drawn and a wise student can discern God's power and control behind the scenes.

Ah yes - "Satan" - often narrated as the opponent of God. Set in seating across from God whereby the board between them functions as the Cosmos - focused on a particular planet in a particular outpost of said cosmos.
Thus we have the characters of the argument. One "God" and one " Satan".
Traditionally, these two have been at it and even consolidating the support of their fellow Eternal Entities to establish clear lines of difference.
And what is humankind? Pawns in a cosmic War-game?
I think not. We are - as you put it - "but a faint mirror image."
Shadows of The Real.
I (as a human) ask in passing..."Is their a third realm which is itself casting the shadow of the Heavenly Simulation, which in turn cast the shadows of the Earthly (cosmic) simulation?
Is that a line which can be crossed? What resides there and is it The One The Source from which all things derive? And if so, is what is experienced in both the heavenly (debated warfare) and earthly realms (bloodletting warfare), something altogether as an internal war happening within The One, and is that what the ultimate arguments is about?

Quote...The call is not to win the game by force - but to play faithfully, trusting the Designer to bring the endgame.
Desmond Doss is the living example - in the game, serving the state, saving lives, refusing to kill. A faithful move within a violent board.
I agree with this. And yes, belief systems have brought great bloodshed upon mankind. And often with the illogical reality of Christians shooting at each other across the ditch.

Brings to mind the truce on Christmas Day...

My only answer to that is the cross. Christ died for both sides. In the end justice will not only be done, but will be seen to be done. The only hope for the dilemmas that face us all is found in Christ and in His self sacrificial death that takes away all our sin and selfishness and pride, and gives us the power, such as was found in Desmond Doss, to live as Christ lived.

Thus - The Cross represents - at the least - the opportunity to place aside the bickering and come to an agreement. GOD is vindicated, thus so is all of GODs Creations.

The war is resolved by the cross - not by force, but by self-sacrifice.
The cross transcends the rules - it absorbs the consequence and offers a new way.
GOD is the Master of Peace - who wins not by defeating enemies, but by reconciling them.
The endgame is agreement - a voluntary, loving unity.
We are participants in the reconciliation - called to live as Christ lived. (in Relationship WITH "The Father")

The Question That Remains:​

If this is the endgame - if the cross is the resolution and we are called to live in that reality - then:

"How do we live that now, while still on the board?"

And the answer, is in the demonstration of Desmond Doss: refuse the sword, save lives, love enemies, trust the Father and BUILD a relationship with "The Father".

 

[Brakelite]

The simulation is not to prevent destruction - because eternal entities cannot be destroyed. It is to demonstrate - to make visible what would otherwise remain hidden: the nature of the conflict, the character of the sides, and the consequences of alignment or opposition, played out in a realm where choices are real and their effects are tangible.

Only God is immortal. Eternal life is conditional on the acceptance of the sacrifice made on our behalf, and then living up to and in the light we allow into our lives. The satanic agencies revealed their character at Calvary, and are irreconcilable but they hang on in desperation till the end knowing that the majority of the world hasn't woken up yet

The war is resolved by the cross - not by force, but by self-sacrifice.
The cross transcends the rules - it absorbs the consequence and offers a new way.
GOD is the Master of Peace - who wins not by defeating enemies, but by reconciling them.
The endgame is agreement - a voluntary, loving unity.
We are participants in the reconciliation - called to live as Christ lived. (in Relationship WITH "The Father")

Good.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Thinking about Heinlein's theory that wars are caused by internal population pressures. Wars are about obtaining lebensraum, resources, power, and prestige for one's own social group. Are ideologies then just one of the boundary-markers that identify various social groups, like ethnicity, economics, religion, or even just lines on a map?

If this is true, war is inevitable. (Heinlein thought so.) Rationality can't fix what's flawed in humanity; it can only attempt to control it. And the control measures may be as bad as the disease.

When I read this,.my mind envisioned two children with a room full of toys. Each of them wants all the toys... so they fight, and pull the toys over to their side, and the other pulls the toys back to his side, etc.

Sorry, maybe it's the mom in me. Lol

 

[Eternal Entity]

Only God is immortal.

Okay - let's agree with that then...

Eternal life is conditional on the acceptance of the sacrifice made on our behalf, and then living up to and in the light we allow into our lives.

But only God is immortal. One would have to explain the apparent contradiction.
I would argue that Eternal Entities are "God" in the sense that in order to being eternal one would have to be possessed by the Immortal God.
This means that God can and does inhabit forms. These can be anything. And while God possesses the instruments of form, even if the instrument itself is not immortal, the Essence of Immortality (I call that "consciousness") lives on, simply leaving the temporal form and taking itself somewhere else - even reconstituting with the overall God-Consciousness, and perhaps too taking with it the memory of the experience of being that particular form.
AS to the "acceptance of the sacrifice made on our behalf, and then living up to and in the light we allow into our lives." that is up to the spirit within the form being occupied and what is God achieving?
1. He is reintroducing the consciousness inhabiting the form to what it once was and can be again.
2. Growing personalities.

The Holy Spirit acts as the reminder activating coding which is hidden within the depths of the Spirit they actually are but because they think they are the form, they perceived God as separate and spirit as separate.
They ARE immortal because they come from the immortal - they just forgot that - so there is no escaping what happens next...and that is the reason for The Cross.

"They" are "We" IF they reconnect consciously with this Truth.

And

We chose to be here and to do this for all of Us.

The satanic agencies revealed their character at Calvary, and are irreconcilable

No. They too are reconcilable - that is part of the reason we have done this thing. To bring all back into remembrance. The satanic are one of the most useful fictions because they act like Sheep Dogs - re modern farming - where the shepard uses them to scare the sheep into the safe place He wants them to go.

The Shepard is the master of both Dog and Sheep.
The Satanic as generally understood is itself a fiction - Historically the Christian fiction re Satan was a latter addition borrowing themes from Paganism to elaborate and thus distort.
God has no enemy in Lucifer - just a good use for...

but they hang on in desperation till the end knowing that the majority of the world hasn't woken up yet

"Woof Woof" :)

Good.

It is Good. gods God and GOD...

 

[Eternal Entity]

When I read this,.my mind envisioned two children with a room full of toys. Each of them wants all the toys... so they fight, and pull the toys over to their side, and the other pulls the toys back to his side, etc.

Sorry, maybe it's the mom in me. Lol

No. That is perfect. God is as much a Mother as SHe is a Father
I don't think it is children squabbling but playing together nicely...the image is human-based on what we observe in our human experience. Father Mother Sister Brother living on the edge of each other.

In Love
EE

 

[Brakelite]

Okay - let's agree with that then...

But only God is immortal. One would have to explain the apparent contradiction.
I would argue that Eternal Entities are "God" in the sense that in order to being eternal one would have to be possessed by the Immortal God.
This means that God can and does inhabit forms. These can be anything. And while God possesses the instruments of form, even if the instrument itself is not immortal, the Essence of Immortality (I call that "consciousness") lives on, simply leaving the temporal form and taking itself somewhere else - even reconstituting with the overall God-Consciousness, and perhaps too taking with it the memory of the experience of being that particular form.
AS to the "acceptance of the sacrifice made on our behalf, and then living up to and in the light we allow into our lives." that is up to the spirit within the form being occupied and what is God achieving?
1. He is reintroducing the consciousness inhabiting the form to what it once was and can be again.
2. Growing personalities.

The Holy Spirit acts as the reminder activating coding which is hidden within the depths of the Spirit they actually are but because they think they are the form, they perceived God as separate and spirit as separate.
They ARE immortal because they come from the immortal - they just forgot that - so there is no escaping what happens next...and that is the reason for The Cross.

"They" are "We" IF they reconnect consciously with this Truth.

And

We chose to be here and to do this for all of Us.

No. They too are reconcilable - that is part of the reason we have done this thing. To bring all back into remembrance. The satanic are one of the most useful fictions because they act like Sheep Dogs - re modern farming - where the shepard uses them to scare the sheep into the safe place He wants them to go.

The Shepard is the master of both Dog and Sheep.
The Satanic as generally understood is itself a fiction - Historically the Christian fiction re Satan was a latter addition borrowing themes from Paganism to elaborate and thus distort.
God has no enemy in Lucifer - just a good use for...

"Woof Woof" :)

It is Good. gods God and GOD...

Yes, only God is immortal. Yet by grace has chosen to share that immortality... eternal life as a gift... conditionally.
You are deviating into guesswork and imagination. That's why we have the Bible. To reduce the "philosophy and vain deceit" that contradicts reality simply because it sounds superior and wise. It is far safer to simply accept the words of scripture and believe that God isn't a liar.
BTW. People don't need war and coercion to convince them that Jesus is worthwhile their adoration and worship. And God cannot accept worship and service that is motivated by fear.

 

[Eternal Entity]

Yes, only God is immortal. Yet by grace has chosen to share that immortality... eternal life as a gift... conditionally.

A conditional gift is not a gift.

You are deviating into guesswork and imagination.

No. I am simply putting the pieces together in the best way...

That's why we have the Bible.

No. The bible is but a drop in the lake - a pointer, not to be worshipped and not to be seen as anything more than a pointer.

To reduce the "philosophy and vain deceit" that contradicts reality simply because it sounds superior and wise.

It is superior and wise not to adulate a book, and use it as an excuse NOT to go deep and know The Father through personal relationship - not through mediums - those ancient days are bygone...

It is far safer to simply accept the words of scripture and believe that God isn't a liar.

No one is calling God a "liar". If one wants "safety" one is fearful already.

BTW. People don't need war and coercion to convince them that Jesus is worthwhile their adoration and worship.

Jesus himself is recorded as saying and doing a lakes worth of hidden information - the bible only records but a drop of that information. Adoration and worship of this Jesus Image is not the way to access that information. - Jesus points to The Father as the one to be adored and worshipped in spirit and in truth. The bible you worship did not even exist at the time of Jesus, so why not tone down your accusations of vain deceit and humble yourself accordingly.

And God cannot accept worship and service that is motivated by fear.

Exactly.
There is nothing to fear.

The Father and I

 

[Lambano]

When I read this,.my mind envisioned two children with a room full of toys. Each of them wants all the toys... so they fight, and pull the toys over to their side, and the other pulls the toys back to his side, etc.

Sorry, maybe it's the mom in me. Lol

That's also a symptom of the disease we have.

 

[Brakelite]

A conditional gift is not a gift.

It is if you need faith to believe it's real, then receive it, and open it, and live according to its contents.

It is superior and wise not to adulate a book, and use it as an excuse NOT to go deep and know The Father through personal relationship - not through mediums - those ancient days are bygone...

"Sanctify them through Thy truth, Thy word is truth".

No one is calling God a "liar". If one wants "safety" one is fearful already.

Anyone is calling God a liar when their own ideas are superimposed over God's word. They become their own authority, and their ideas their own god.

Jesus Image is not the way to access that information. -

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Eternal Entity]

I don't dismiss Scripture - I read it with the understanding that it points to the Living Word, not the printed page. And I don't reject Jesus - I see Him as the one who reveals the Father, not as a one who blocks access to The Father.

Certainly 'Thy word is truth,' and that Word is not confined to ink and paper - But is alive, active, and speaking still. AS Jesus is the Way, then He leads us to the Father - not to a book, but to a relationship. Not a relationship through a collection of ancient writings. Only to a relationship with The Living Creator - Neither to a relationship only with The Son - but certainly with The Father.

I'm not superimposing my ideas over The Father's words ... I'm speaking what The Word The Father Speaks reveals. That's not rejection...rather it is acceptance.

My witness throughout this thread shows this to be true.


One does initially need faith to believe The Fathers Love is real and unconditional. Receive the gift that was given. Not the flesh of a tree and the ink of the plant but the flesh and blood of the Son of Man, open to The Words revealed and seeking that which is hidden, and live according to that which The Father uncovers to all those who seek and bear witness to what is found...that they are Sanctified through the Truth The Father Reveals to Those very seekers The Father gave the right to become His Children.
No entity comes to the hidden knowledge of The Father, except through The Father.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I had to come back and read your thread again. There are places where you get a little far outfield for me and places where I think you may have stopped receiving information because you are too certain you have fully understood something with your capable (but limited) mind. I did, with some effort, understand your field of consciousness and could see it as things we are ready to bear and things we aren’t ready to bear. (I see it in my minds eye as more of a ladder that we climb and as we get higher we see more.)

You do have an interesting way of looking at things, I can say that!

 

[MostlyConfused]

I prefer indepth.

Name one.

This was interesting when Matthias said he doesn’t think everyone is a minister of God and you said, name one. It made me think of how it has become hard for me to get angry or stay angry any longer at people who have been seriously bad to me, even over the course of many years, because in the end I have seen how God used them to effect good for me (to knock some of my stuffing out of me or to teach me about how dire our fallen situation is or how wounded we all are, etc).
I guess I wouldn’t say people who hated me and wanted to harm me are ministers of God so much as I would say that in His hands they ministered to me because He turned what they meant for evil to my good, as in the end I surrendered myself to Him as He removed them from my clinging heart one by one and left me no one else to cling to or look to or depend on BUT Himself.

Is that sort of what you meant when you said “name one?”

 

[Brakelite]

This was interesting when Matthias said he doesn’t think everyone is a minister of God and you said, name one. It made me think of how it has become hard for me to get angry or stay angry any longer at people who have been seriously bad to me, even over the course of many years, because in the end I have seen how God used them to effect good for me (to knock some of my stuffing out of me or to teach me about how dire our fallen situation is or how wounded we all are, etc).
I guess I wouldn’t say people who hated me and wanted to harm me are ministers of God so much as I would say that in His hands they ministered to me because He turned what they meant for evil to my good, as in the end I surrendered myself to Him as He removed them from my clinging heart one by one and left me no one else to cling to or look to or depend on BUT Himself.

Is that sort of what you meant when you said “name one?”

Interesting testimony. The firm I worked for sent me to the other side of the country to where I knew no-one, estranged from friends and family, and was more mentally prepared to consider my need of a Saviour and Friend. Back home I had everything I thought I needed. But here I was alone, and although having the time of my life with a great job and some of the best surf in the country, I was alone, and I knew it.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Interesting testimony. The firm I worked for sent me to the other side of the country to where I knew no-one, estranged from friends and family, and was more mentally prepared to consider my need of a Saviour and Friend. Back home I had everything I thought I needed. But here I was alone, and although having the time of my life with a great job and some of the best surf in the country, I was alone, and I knew it.

He seems to like to isolate us much of the time to grab our focus from being scattered all over the earth on every imaginable trifle!