Uncovering the Devil's Strategy

[Hepzibah]

I'm not sure we need to nail down when the church began, in the sense that we don't need to worry about it or make it into a doctrine. Strictly speaking we might say it began with the first advent of Christ. He was the Head of it and began bringing in "members" as soon as He began preaching. And maybe we might even consider that His mother was the first member since she was seen having faith in Him at the wedding of Cana before Jesus had begun His ministry as such.

I hadn't thought of that before, that Mary was the first member of the church - the invisible church that is. Orthodoxy says that she was entirely sanctified at the Annunciation where the angel of the Lord called her 'full of grace' (not from 'The Immaculate Conception').

But I think it is very important that we know when the church started - the visible one that is, which gives a witness to the world, even though it consists of wheat and tares, as we need to know which are the cults, false churches, that do not teach holiness doctrine showing The Way to the deification of man which is the restoration to that to which he lost at the fall. Sadly in these dark times, it is now not even in the original church as they have mainly succumbed to the 'gradual sanctification' of worldly churches whereby holiness is not obtained till death.

Re cleansing, on meeting a man walking in the Spirit and led by the Spirit, people will be convicted of their sins even before he speaks as in the story about Charles Finney and the factory girl who came to Christ just looking at him after she had been making jokes about him.

When I was fully walking in the Spirit, I attended a Bible study group where one woman was seriously convicted by what I was saying, but the leader of the group soon put an end to it by telling her that she was stressing herself un-necessarily as even her future sins had been forgiven. He won.

When we first come to Christ, we are very sensitive to sin and will try desperately to avoid it, but soon we will begin to compromise if we have not gone on to perfection, and then we 'lose our first love' and remain so unless we are revived through the first stage of entire sanctification.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth
You have not remarked on the verses from the OT which I quoted and which are found along with analogies, throughout scripture that there is 'A Day' where this work of God in the transformation of man is found.

You are making it into two Days, and the second one not as important.

 

[Lizbeth]

I hadn't thought of that before, that Mary was the first member of the church - the invisible church that is. Orthodoxy says that she was entirely sanctified at the Annunciation where the angel of the Lord called her 'full of grace' (not from 'The Immaculate Conception').

But I think it is very important that we know when the church started - the visible one that is, which gives a witness to the world, even though it consists of wheat and tares, as we need to know which are the cults, false churches, that do not teach holiness doctrine showing The Way to the deification of man which is the restoration to that to which he lost at the fall. Sadly in these dark times, it is now not even in the original church as they have mainly succumbed to the 'gradual sanctification' of worldly churches whereby holiness is not obtained till death.

Re cleansing, on meeting a man walking in the Spirit and led by the Spirit, people will be convicted of their sins even before he speaks as in the story about Charles Finney and the factory girl who came to Christ just looking at him after she had been making jokes about him.

When I was fully walking in the Spirit, I attended a Bible study group where one woman was seriously convicted by what I was saying, but the leader of the group soon put an end to it by telling her that she was stressing herself un-necessarily as even her future sins had been forgiven. He won.

When we first come to Christ, we are very sensitive to sin and will try desperately to avoid it, but soon we will begin to compromise if we have not gone on to perfection, and then we 'lose our first love' and remain so unless we are revived through the first stage of entire sanctification.

Not to make too much of Mary, but she gave birth to Jesus and raised Him so spent many years being very close and watching/discerning/hearing Him. And she is a figure or type of the church....she heard the word preached to her by the angel and received/believed it. The Word made flesh. Thus what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit....then Christ was formed in her and she finally gave birth to Him. We follow that same pattern I believe.

There are a lot of terminologies that make me cringe....ecclesiastical terminology like Annunciation, Immaculate Conception are among them, because it is a departure from the simplicity of Christ and takes glory away from Him and what He has simply said in His word. I don't like the term deification applied to man either. It seems to overstate the case, when we are to be reflectors of HIS light and glory and deity, because we don't have it of our own. Gods and sons of God in the bible I take to be honorary titles, not to be taken too literally. We have received the spirit of adoption, which is as binding a commitment as having natural children, but not as literal.

Isa 43:10-11
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

On the idea of gradual sanctification.....I've noticed there is a strong theme of growth in the bible, so I don't think we can ignore that. It even says until we grow up into the full stature of Christ. Mustard seed of faith which grows until it become a life giving tree, etc. But I believe there is a moment when it is done, when we have crossed the divide, as I think of it. A moment when we fully surrender and have fully consecrated ourselves to Him and become a whole burnt offering on the altar, a whole living sacrifice. But seems it generally takes some form of gradual growth to get there, whether for a short or long period of time. We undergo His chastisements and suffering as sons over time so that we may partake of His holiness.

Yes, the presence of the Holy Spirit in one makes things happen. It can be a stronger or weaker presence. I believe it was His presence in me a few times that caused demons to manifest, and it came out of one person spontaneously......I didn't command it, it was just spontaneous. And I can't say I was walking in the spirit particularly at the time, just trying very hard to bring someone to Christ. He was willing to listen so I just kept talking about the Lord and the gospel and things that the bible says whenever we crossed paths.......and it is simply true that signs follow the preaching of the gospel.

I seem to be the opposite about sin....I wasn't very conscious of my sins in the beginning, except for the sin of unbelief. I was ashamed of not having believed before and of being patronizing when people had witnessed to me a few times. Some sins fell away automatically, but others I only left behind as I became instructed and convicted as I learned the word. And now I am much more sensitive to sin than I used to be.....way way more aware that in me is no good thing, apart from the Lord. Aware of inner things that I am helpless to deal with on my own. Aware that sin is much more than things we do but is what we ARE, in our old man carnal nature. We need the Lord to get to the root of sin/iniquity in us. I think it is that root that drags people down from the heights of that first love...which we need to overcome.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth
You have not remarked on the verses from the OT which I quoted and which are found along with analogies, throughout scripture that there is 'A Day' where this work of God in the transformation of man is found.

You are making it into two Days, and the second one not as important.

I'm sorry....have trouble keeping up these days, so much so that I often wonder if should "retire" from forums. Which post or page was it?

 

[Hepzibah]

@Lizbeth

The following is what I posted previously:

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

You seem to enjoy the discussions so why give it up. Maybe just take it more slowly. There are natural things that improve brain function that I need to investigate for myself. Things that lower inflammation like modified citrus pectin.

 

[Hepzibah]

Not to make too much of Mary, but she gave birth to Jesus and raised Him so spent many years being very close and watching/discerning/hearing Him. And she is a figure or type of the church....she heard the word preached to her by the angel and received/believed it. The Word made flesh. Thus what was conceived in her was of the Holy Spirit....then Christ was formed in her and she finally gave birth to Him. We follow that same pattern I believe.

Well if we need to be entirely sanctified, then Mary above all needed it, so yes.

There are a lot of terminologies that make me cringe....ecclesiastical terminology like Annunciation, Immaculate Conception are among them, because it is a departure from the simplicity of Christ and takes glory away from Him and what He has simply said in His word. I don't like the term deification applied to man either. It seems to overstate the case, when we are to be reflectors of HIS light and glory and deity, because we don't have it of our own. Gods and sons of God in the bible I take to be honorary titles, not to be taken too literally. We have received the spirit of adoption, which is as binding a commitment as having natural children, but not as literal.

The problem is that, terminology is often misunderstood and the meaning is the same but translated direct from Greek/Hebrew. I am ok so long as I know they mean the same as does deification v holiness. The ancients certainly did not believe that we can know God's essence let alone share in it.

Isa 43:10-11
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

On the idea of gradual sanctification.....I've noticed there is a strong theme of growth in the bible, so I don't think we can ignore that. It even says until we grow up into the full stature of Christ. Mustard seed of faith which grows until it become a life giving tree, etc. But I believe there is a moment when it is done, when we have crossed the divide, as I think of it. A moment when we fully surrender and have fully consecrated ourselves to Him and become a whole burnt offering on the altar, a whole living sacrifice. But seems it generally takes some form of gradual growth to get there, whether for a short or long period of time. We undergo His chastisements and suffering as sons over time so that we may partake of His holiness.

Yes there is a period before that great day, but that is just the start when one walks in holiness, and thereafter there is no end of learning and growing IN holiness. The growth the church believes in is only towards it and not in this life.

Yes, the presence of the Holy Spirit in one makes things happen. It can be a stronger or weaker presence. I believe it was His presence in me a few times that caused demons to manifest, and it came out of one person spontaneously......I didn't command it, it was just spontaneous. And I can't say I was walking in the spirit particularly at the time, just trying very hard to bring someone to Christ. He was willing to listen so I just kept talking about the Lord and the gospel and things that the bible says whenever we crossed paths.......and it is simply true that signs follow the preaching of the gospel.

Me too with someone definitely possessed.

I seem to be the opposite about sin....I wasn't very conscious of my sins in the beginning, except for the sin of unbelief. I was ashamed of not having believed before and of being patronizing when people had witnessed to me a few times. Some sins fell away automatically, but others I only left behind as I became instructed and convicted as I learned the word. And now I am much more sensitive to sin than I used to be.....way way more aware that in me is no good thing, apart from the Lord. Aware of inner things that I am helpless to deal with on my own. Aware that sin is much more than things we do but is what we ARE, in our old man carnal nature. We need the Lord to get to the root of sin/iniquity in us. I think it is that root that drags people down from the heights of that first love...which we need to overcome.

I think I meant to say that in comparison to the unbeliever state. It is true for me too that as time went on I became more conscious once I began to be convicted as I was backslidding.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth

The following is what I posted previously:

We are told in Numbers 11:16-17,24-29, that the Lord, took of the Spirit that was on Him, and put Him onto the 70 elders of Israel, and in Joel 2:23-39 that He will restore the years the locusts have eaten whereby they would know that God was with them.

Referring to the same event we read in Ezekiel 36:24-27,

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

You seem to enjoy the discussions so why give it up. Maybe just take it more slowly. There are natural things that improve brain function that I need to investigate for myself. Things that lower inflammation like modified citrus pectin.

Ok, this I by-passed because I didn't understand what you meant by it at the time. To my understanding those passages are looking ahead to the gospel...they would be fulfilled with the coming of Jesus and His gospel (for those souls who would receive it.) We receive His spirit and begin walking in His statutes when we come to faith.........but not perfectly yet......having only received the earnest of the Spirit initially. The idea of the parable about the talents is that we are to pay the price to increase and gain more of what we received initially. What we increase in comes from that initial measure we first received. Which agrees with something the Lord showed me in spirit.....the full measure of the spirit comes out from, or springs and wells up from, what we first received, in a manner of speaking.

 

[Lizbeth]

Well if we need to be entirely sanctified, then Mary above all needed it, so yes.

I don't believe scripture teaches that we literally need it to be saved per se, but that we can possess and have it in this life.

I don't understand why Mary would need it above everyone else...? To clarify, I take it that her conception, gestation and giving birth to Christ was only a type/shadow of the believers' actual spiritual journey. I assume that, as a human being, she would have had to receive the actual gospel the same way everyone does, through having it revealed to her by hearing her Son preach it and receiving/believing what He was saying, His word.

The problem is that, terminology is often misunderstood and the meaning is the same but translated direct from Greek/Hebrew. I am ok so long as I know they mean the same as does deification v holiness. The ancients certainly did not believe that we can know God's essence let alone share in it.

I dont know sister.....words matter because they set up a construct or concept in our minds, whether erroneous or true in spirit, and we are instructed not to go beyond what is written. So I want to be careful not to stray from what is written. It is one thing to use extra biblical terminology descriptively, for the purpose of helping the understanding, but it is another thing to use such terminology to form a doctrine out of it. We can always find justification or excuse for those who do so, but such terminology is a departure from the plumbline of God's words and the simplicity of Christ. To me the word deification implies an equality with God and to become part of a pantheon of gods. "Immaculate Conception" implies sinlessness, having no 'original' sin....that is false too. "Annunciation" too is a religious label that sets up an over- imaginative religious kind of idea rather than the simplicity of an angel appearing in the simplicity of real life to a young gal in Israel.

Sister, I just want to say kindly, to be careful you haven't unknowingly been influenced by all the things you have read and formed sympathies with some of it. The bible is the plumbline that we need to know well and measure everything by it, against it, filling our hearts and minds with scripture.

Yes there is a period before that great day, but that is just the start when one walks in holiness, and thereafter there is no end of learning and growing IN holiness. The growth the church believes in is only towards it and not in this life.

I believe we all should be pressing towards it, but that not all will get that far in this life. I agree that some will and do though. No end...amen. That agrees with where it says of the increase of His government there is no end. And I would say that might explain why Paul said he did not consider that he had yet attained. We all need to keep growing and pressing into the kingdom and investing what measure we each have, for as long as we have breath and strength. I have an idea the Lord doesn't judge the same way man does, that He will judge each soul based on what they did with what they had, rather than on how much they had or how far they went per se. More like an individual bell curve grading rather than a fixed score as such.

Me too with someone definitely possessed.

Amen, praise God.

I think I meant to say that in comparison to the unbeliever state. It is true for me too that as time went on I became more conscious once I began to be convicted as I was backslidding.

Amen.

 

[Behold]

I hadn't thought of that before, that Mary was the first member of the church -

You can't become a member of the Body of Christ until Jesus has been Crucified for your sin, and the Holy Spirit given to the world.

The "church"..the body of Christ".....begain, with The Cross, and with the Holy Spirit being given......and He was SENT, after Jesus was back in Heaven.

Now, the first to receive the Holy Spirit, were the 11 Apostles.....in John 20:22, (before Pentecost).... and this verse does not list Mary, in the verse.
If you feel like it, you can open a bible or do an "online search" all the way back to verse 19.
There is no Mary in the verses.

 

[Hepzibah]

Ok, this I by-passed because I didn't understand what you meant by it at the time. To my understanding those passages are looking ahead to the gospel...they would be fulfilled with the coming of Jesus and His gospel (for those souls who would receive it.) We receive His spirit and begin walking in His statutes when we come to faith.........but not perfectly yet......having only received the earnest of the Spirit initially. The idea of the parable about the talents is that we are to pay the price to increase and gain more of what we received initially. What we increase in comes from that initial measure we first received. Which agrees with something the Lord showed me in spirit.....the full measure of the spirit comes out from, or springs and wells up from, what we first received, in a manner of speaking.

Maybe I have not been clear so apologies if so.

What I am pointing out is, that the OT speaks of a day when this transformation of man will take place which is meaning more than just the gospel comes. So you are saying that the transformation needs two days not one, one for partial and the other day for the fullness.

There is a kind of transformation when he comes to Christ it is true, but the sin nature is not dealt with until the fullness comes and he is enabled by faith to enter into fullness of union with Christ - truly the new man.

 

[Behold]

but the sin nature is not dealt with

Paul says that the "old man of sin, (the sin nature) is Crucified with Christ".. and the Christian is to "reckon (esteem) it DEAD"..

until the fullness comes and he is enabled by faith to enter into fullness of union with Christ - truly the new man.

The Born again Christian is already "IN Christ" and "ONE with God"........so there is no more available, later.
What is available, is "to be conformed into the image of Christ......and that is going to happen, in the Rapture or after you die.......when the born again, receive their NEW Body.

 

[Hepzibah]

I don't believe scripture teaches that we literally need it to be saved per se, but that we can possess and have it in this life.

We have talked about what (Spirit) baptism is and the verse from Peter saying it saves, so I will just end there.

I don't understand why Mary would need it above everyone else...? To clarify, I take it that her conception, gestation and giving birth to Christ was only a type/shadow of the believers' actual spiritual journey. I assume that, as a human being, she would have had to receive the actual gospel the same way everyone does, through having it revealed to her by hearing her Son preach it and receiving/believing what He was saying, His word.

Mary would need to be in union with God when she was bringing up the Saviour for all the decisions she would make.

Saints in the OT? The Holy Spirit can work without having man as an agent.

I dont know sister.....words matter because they set up a construct or concept in our minds, whether erroneous or true in spirit, and we are instructed not to go beyond what is written. So I want to be careful not to stray from what is written. It is one thing to use extra biblical terminology descriptively, for the purpose of helping the understanding, but it is another thing to use such terminology to form a doctrine out of it. We can always find justification or excuse for those who do so, but such terminology is a departure from the plumbline of God's words and the simplicity of Christ. To me the word deification implies an equality with God and to become part of a pantheon of gods.

But that is your opinion which is not the way it has been used which I explained. But I agree that it is better to stick to scriptural words when speaking to those who may not understand the concepts spoken of.

"Immaculate Conception" implies sinlessness, having no 'original' sin....that is false too.

Catholic dogma.

"Annunciation" too is a religious label that sets up an over- imaginative religious kind of idea rather than the simplicity of an angel appearing in the simplicity of real life to a young gal in Israel.

It is using the words the angel uttered to Mary along with holy tradition, not mans tradition found in the RCC. The Apostle Paul told his followers to obey his words handed down and not writings.

Sister, I just want to say kindly, to be careful you haven't unknowingly been influenced by all the things you have read and formed sympathies with some of it. The bible is the plumbline that we need to know well and measure everything by it, against it, filling our hearts and minds with scripture.

I go by what God reveals to me on the deeper things of scripture and if it is not found in early church writings then I do not rest till I find others who witness to it.

I believe we all should be pressing towards it, but that not all will get that far in this life. I agree that some will and do though. No end...amen. That agrees with where it says of the increase of His government there is no end. And I would say that might explain why Paul said he did not consider that he had yet attained.

Paul was speaking of his crown of martyrdom.

We all need to keep growing and pressing into the kingdom and investing what measure we each have, for as long as we have breath and strength. I have an idea the Lord doesn't judge the same way man does, that He will judge each soul based on what they did with what they had, rather than on how much they had or how far they went per se. More like an individual bell curve grading rather than a fixed score as such.


Amen, praise God.


Amen.

 

[Hepzibah]

You can't become a member of the Body of Christ until Jesus has been Crucified for your sin, and the Holy Spirit given to the world.

Okay I see you are a dispensationist and do not believe in OT saints. Okay I will leave it there.

The "church"..the body of Christ".....begain, with The Cross, and with the Holy Spirit being given......and He was SENT, after Jesus was back in Heaven.

Now, the first to receive the Holy Spirit, were the 11 Apostles.....in John 20:22, (before Pentecost).... and this verse does not list Mary, in the verse.
If you feel like it, you can open a bible or do an "online search" all the way back to verse 19.
There is no Mary in the verses.

 

[Lizbeth]

Maybe I have not been clear so apologies if so.

What I am pointing out is, that the OT speaks of a day when this transformation of man will take place which is meaning more than just the gospel comes. So you are saying that the transformation needs two days not one, one for partial and the other day for the fullness.

There is a kind of transformation when he comes to Christ it is true, but the sin nature is not dealt with until the fullness comes and he is enabled by faith to enter into fullness of union with Christ - truly the new man.

I dont know how to explain it very well, but scripture appears to often be speaking on more than one level at the same time. Like the prophet wading into the river (we can take that to mean the water of the word, or the Holy Spirit) going deeper and deeper into it. The same words can be speaking on more than depth or level and at first we typically will only see the more shallow level until as we begin growing more we will start to see a deeper meaning.........but both or all levels are valid.

Amen, I agree the sin nature needs to be dealt with at the root.......where David prayed for the Lord to cause his iniquities to pass from him. In one sense (on one level) that happens when we come to faith, in the sense that the Lord casts our sins into the sea of forgetfulness, in mercy choosing to forgive, forget and overlook them...righteousness imputed....but in another sense (on a deeper level) we grow to seek for our iniquities to be cast out of us in fact, and not only imputed. It is the Lord who begins to bring light and conviction on a deeper level, so that we become aware of our need and lack, and will begin to seek what we still have need of. In the beginning most aren't aware enough to realize we need this, at least I wasn't, and that seems to be pretty common in my observation.

 

[Hepzibah]

I dont know how to explain it very well, but scripture appears to often be speaking on more than one level at the same time. Like the prophet wading into the river (we can take that to mean the water of the word, or the Holy Spirit) going deeper and deeper into it. The same words can be speaking on more than depth or level and at first we typically will only see the more shallow level until as we begin growing more we will start to see a deeper meaning.........but both or all levels are valid.

Amen, I agree the sin nature needs to be dealt with at the root.......where David prayed for the Lord to cause his iniquities to pass from him. In one sense (on one level) that happens when we come to faith, in the sense that the Lord casts our sins into the sea of forgetfulness, in mercy choosing to forgive, forget and overlook them...righteousness imputed....but in another sense (on a deeper level) we grow to seek for our iniquities to be cast out of us in fact, and not only imputed. It is the Lord who begins to bring light and conviction on a deeper level, so that we become aware of our need and lack, and will begin to seek what we still have need of. In the beginning most aren't aware enough to realize we need this, at least I wasn't, and that seems to be pretty common in my observation.

Yes I agree that there is more than one level - three in fact, but there is only one point when the pure heart is given and union with Christ is found and we partake in the nature of Christ in holiness. One point when we become as Adam was before he sinned. But there are steps to that.

 

[Hepzibah]

Paul says that the "old man of sin, (the sin nature) is Crucified with Christ".. and the Christian is to "reckon (esteem) it DEAD"..



The Born again Christian is already "IN Christ" and "ONE with God"........so there is no more available, later.
What is available, is "to be conformed into the image of Christ......and that is going to happen, in the Rapture or after you die.......when the born again, receive their NEW Body.

Everything you say about the Christian being in Christ and one with God is true.

However, the church is so corrupt that it tells people that they are there just because they have met with Christ and mentally accept the truth.

However, they do not love the Lord their God with their whole heart soul and mind and their neighbour as themselves so they are fooling themselves and need to get really saved.

 

[Lizbeth]

Paul says that the "old man of sin, (the sin nature) is Crucified with Christ".. and the Christian is to "reckon (esteem) it DEAD"..



The Born again Christian is already "IN Christ" and "ONE with God"........so there is no more available, later.
What is available, is "to be conformed into the image of Christ......and that is going to happen, in the Rapture or after you die.......when the born again, receive their NEW Body.

Aren't we supposed to be seeking to apprehend (get hold of) that for which Christ has apprehended us? So that it becomes our reality and not just what is graciously being imputed to us. In one way it has been accomplished in heaven, but in another way we need for what has been done in heaven to be done in our "earth" (earthen vessel) as well. ("Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.") Why else would the Word say to believers to seek first His righteousness and His kingdom...? It has been imputed to us, but we need also to seek the reality of it....seek to manifest and walk in what Jesus has accomplished. I think the Lord answers the desire of our heart....if we are satisfied or complacent about where we are we won't grow much further...but if we desire and seek more, He will answer and lead us accordingly.

 

[Episkopos]

Aren't we supposed to be seeking to apprehend (get hold of) that for which Christ has apprehended us? So that it becomes our reality and not just what is graciously being imputed to us.

Wanky doctrine alert. Behold is just taking the same flawed logic to its obvious conclusion. If you thought it out logically, you would realize you are in the same trap as Behold. God can only impute to us what comes from us. Look up the meaning of impute. Learn and cease from ignorance.

In one way it has been accomplished in heaven, but in another way we need for what has been done in heaven to be done in our "earth" (earthen vessel) as well. ("Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.")

That's not what the verse means. Most people who name and claim don't know Jesus at all...hence go away I never knew you. The Father draws but we must seek. Otherwise we have nothing but the sample.

Why else would the Word say to believers to seek first His righteousness and His kingdom...?

That is the prime directive for all disciples...to ask, seek and knock...until we receive visitation and empowerment from above, to walk as Jesus walked. That elevation is the STARTING POINT.

It has been imputed to us, but we need also to seek the reality of it.

You are basing the Christian walk in UNreality. You have to read your own errant thoughts. God doesn't impute fantasies. God is truth. You, on the other hand, obfuscate to your advantage...and deny the truth.

...seek to manifest and walk in what Jesus has accomplished.

That's right. Until that happens, one is not in the race at all. If one claims to be something they are not...they are rejected.

I think the Lord answers the desire of our heart....if we are satisfied or complacent about where we are we won't grow much further...but if we desire and seek more, He will answer and lead us accordingly.

You are speaking from reality here or theoretically? Someone who sees the gospel as figurative in nature cannot believe in actual resurrection, miracles, sanctification...etc. I see this as unbelief.

 

[Lizbeth]

Wanky doctrine alert. Behold is just taking the same flawed logic to its obvious conclusion. If you thought it out logically, you would realize you are in the same trap as Behold. God can only impute to us what comes from us. Look up the meaning of impute. Learn and cease from ignorance.


That's not what the verse means. Most people who name and claim don't know Jesus at all...hence go away I never knew you. The Father draws but we must seek. Otherwise we have nothing but the sample.


That is the prime directive for all disciples...to ask, seek and knock...until we receive visitation and empowerment from above, to walk as Jesus walked. That elevation is the STARTING POINT.


You are basing the Christian walk in UNreality. You have to read your own errant thoughts. God doesn't impute fantasies. God is truth. You, on the other hand, obfuscate to your advantage...and deny the truth.


That's right. Until that happens, one is not in the race at all. If one claims to be something they are not...they are rejected.

You are speaking from reality here or theoretically? Someone who sees the gospel as figurative in nature cannot believe in actual resurrection, miracles, sanctification...etc. I see this as unbelief.

Ah well, we'll just be going around in circles again Epi. I will just refer you to Romans 4. Imputed means to be credited to our account - reckoned. Now you can do that in payment for something (paying a debt owed for services rendered) or you can do that as a free gift (grace) apart from works. Romans 4 says explicitly that it is not reckoned (counted, credited, imputed) to us according to debt but grace. Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord does not count against him...that is how the OT puts it. Yeah he sure has sins, they were real, but as Romans 4 puts it the Lord is not imputing them to him. The reason God can impute righteousness to us apart from works is because Jesus paid the debt of our sins for us....you know, that little thing called the GOSPEL....? Do with it what you will.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

However, they do not love the Lord their God with their whole heart soul and mind and their neighbor as themselves so they are fooling themselves and need to get really saved.

This is true.

Those that embrace once saved always saved are the ones fooling everyone because they claim as long as someone has just a moment of faith, they are saved and going to Heaven even if as you say do not love the Lord their God with their whole heart soul and mind and their neighbor as themselves