(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
Understanding and interpretation
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(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”
Luke 18:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
Proverbs 28:13 (NKJV)
[sup]13 [/sup]He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.
Alethos
New Member
Judd,
Do you believe there is one interpretation of the Scriptures? 1 Thess 5:21
Like Aspen I am curious why this thread has not rec more attention..and why it didnt stay on topic?
Thanks
Alethos
[email protected]
Choir Loft
My son once asked me how I deal with the flame wars and the accusations that rage throughout these sites.
Some are really really bad and I've gotten tossed off a few let me tell you.
Muslim sites want no questioning whatsoever, except that which agrees with current Islamic theology.
Ask a pointed question about an apparent inconsistancy in the Qur'an and you'll be tossed out (guess how I learned that one).
Certain Christian sites do not support ideology which contradicts that of the moderator. You'll get tossed out for that too (oops - me too).
The lack of civility on some sites is due to the anonymous nature of our identities in cyber space.
It's especially bad on those sites which are atheist in nature and disinclined to accept ANY Christian argument.
The point is to try to make a point, whether it's accepted or not by the general audience.
Making or receiving the sting of a point is useful in encouragement and formulation of idea systems.
If one's point is well taken, then it is useful to continue with that line of thought.
If it isn't accepted, then one is well advised to study further to learn why not.
BTW how do you know what 'the audience' thinks anyway? I hear no applause or jeering at any point.
The biggest problem with idiots out there is that there's a lot of hot air going through the keyboard and not much fact.
Christians usually back up what they say with scripture. I do that and also try to add quotations from men of letters.
No matter what one uses to support an argument, it shows that there has been some process involved and that the assertion isn't just something that popped into one's mind.
Ever read the exchange of letters between Erasmus and Luther? Luther was a hellion and that's putting it mildly.
I dare say that if Martin Luther were alive and posting on the web today, he'd be universally tossed out because of personal defamation.
For example, he once said of Erasmus that his attempts to hold a thought in his head were like pouring water into a leaky bucket.
It's not quite that bad here....yet.
What we see is what we get...
Luke 11:
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
Rev 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22:
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
When we look toward the Kingdom of God and His righteousness our eye will be single and full of light for there is no night there — then and only then are we able to labor toward that place of rest.
Heb 4:
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Luke 11:
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.
Rev 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
Rev 22:
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
When we look toward the Kingdom of God and His righteousness our eye will be single and full of light for there is no night there — then and only then are we able to labor toward that place of rest.
Heb 4:
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Alethos
New Member
The above truth is refreshing
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Ducky you are too negative and you interrupted a perfectly good thread to play the adversary.
"by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Join the club won't ya!
What then is it that you are doing?
Many, referring to we who believe and obey Him. The majority do not.
Referring to all who truly repent and obey Him.
See above.
Which "club" would that be?
The above truth is refreshing
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Blessings,
There is no "Light" in the bickering of one person with another...
I can see the Lord's coming in the love we have one to another. I believe that in the sound of the last trump, when the last person on the earth is and all on the planet are saved, the Lord Christ Jesus will be there and all who have ever believed will have returned with and reside within Him the temple/tabernacle of God and the Light of the World that is manifest in the mortal and transfigured flesh of the "body" of Christ.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
Mark 9:
1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
(Mat 17: 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.)
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
I believe the Lord Jesus is the "Sun of righteousness" given to us by the Father God...moreover, by healing our sinfulness He "...shall tread down the wicked..." I believe by giving us life the Lord Jesus kills that which is wicked....
Mal 4:
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Mal 4:
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Alethos
New Member
The Lord taught truth and the Pharisees bickered because there was no light in them. There is only one faith, one hope and one baptism Eph 4:5. It’s a post modernistic view if we believe all Christians will be saved for many are called but few are chosen Matt 22:14. Further to this if we believe being saved is easy, one might think about 1 Peter 4:18.
The fact will always remain in John 17:17 Heb 11:6 and Deut 4:38-39...these passages teach us the need to find that one true faith which saves and God will reward those who find the pearl of great price Matt 13:46.
If you have that one faith you ought to preach it with all your substance, proving from the Scriptures what you know have learnt from the Holy Prophets and Apostles and Jesus Christ Rom 15:4.
These above verses require knowledge and should prompt in us a deep desire to search out truth at all cost, every word and verse of the Holy Scriptures is filled with Wisdom and Power, but sadly many here in the forum have removed its power for error of myths.
Can error save? Many know not “the” Gospel and profess to be Christian 2 Thess 1:8
I encourage you to work in His vineyard and learn of His ways and don’t forget to season your comments with salt, for if the salt has lost its flavour, what good it is?
Thrown away and burned?
In the Masters Service
Contrary to popular opinion, the Bible cannot have a variety of interpretations. Just as a combination lock cannot have more than one specific combination of numbers in a preassigned order that will unlock it, so likewise the Bible. The apostle Paul wrote that "God is a God, not of disorder but of peace."(1 Cor 14:33) Our Creator is perfectly organized, not chaotic. Only one interpretation is correct and not the infinite number of interpretations that people propose. For example, concerning the dream of the "immense image" that king Nebuchadnezzar saw, the king asked Daniel: "Are you competent enough to make known to me the dream that I beheld, and its interpretation (not interpretations)?”(Dan 2:26)
King Nebuchadnezzar received no help from his magic-practicing priests, but received only one interpretation that was the truth through Daniel as God's appointed channel, who told him: "The secret that the king himself is asking, the wise men, the conjurers, the magic-practicing priests and the astrologers themselves are unable to show to the king. However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb·u·chad·nez´zar what is to occur in the final part of the days."(Dan 2:27, 28)
After Jesus had told John the Baptist through his disciples about him being "the Coming One" or Messiah by his works that "the blind are seeing again, and the lame are walking about, the lepers are being cleansed and the deaf are hearing, and the dead are being raised up, and the poor are having the good news declared to them"(Matt 11:5), Jesus then likens the masses of the Jews as "young children playing in a marketplace", speaking deridingly of both John and Jesus.(Matt 11:16-19) Though the evidence of powerful works was unmistakable of Jesus as being from God (Matt 11:20-24), these still found fault and there was a failure of recognition of both who John and Jesus were.
Hence, Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes."("babes", Greek nepios) Thus, the understanding of the Bible, is revealed only to 'babes", those who are humble and teachable, like a little child. Only one interpretation is from God; all the rest are of human origin or fleshly thinking.
The apostle Paul had to correct the divisive thinking of the Corinthians, in which some said: "I belong to Paul,” “But I to A·pol´los,” “But I to Ce´phas,” “But I to Christ.” Paul now says that if this is the case, then "the Christ exists divided."(1 Cor 1:12, 13) Paul however, says: "Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."(1 Cor 1:10) God does not exist divided, as the churches are.
Jesus said: "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."(Matt 12:25) This principle is well established, for anything that exhibits disharmony eventually falls apart. How well this speaks of the churches, that of "confusion on top of confusion". The results of a survey in 2008 found that about 86 percent of the world’s population profess some form of religious affiliation. The survey also found that the believers belong to 19 major religions and that those who claim to be Christians belong to an astonishing 37,000 different denominations. This bespeaks of division.
Only one religion on the earth is God using to interpret his word, the Bible, just as he used only one "nation", the Israelites, for the Mosaic Law covenant. Psalms 147:19, 20 says that God "is telling his word to Jacob, his regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them."
Only through the proper channel does God reveal his word the Bible, one channel, not a multiplicity of ones, each with their own interpretation. Jesus said that through "a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household", that to his "household" of loyal servants of God that he would "give them meat in due season."(Matt 24:45, King James Bible) Meat, not crumbs, would be provided through this "faithful and discreet slave" (not an individual but the group of those selected as "kings and priests", Rev 1:6) that Jesus appointed in these "last days"(2 Tim 3:1-5), "over his household." The Bible would then begin to be unveiled, properly interpreted.
Alethos
New Member
Well written Guestman!
Matt 24:45
Consider the faithful servantrs who in Mat 25:21. And the wise virgins in Mat 25:2. Like the brethren giving good food in Mat 25:36. And keep in mind this meat is not just for leaders, but to all brothers and sisters of all ages; see Mat 20:27; John 13:12-14.
All being feed the same milk & meat of the word.
Alethos
And I suppose you have the one specific combination of numbers in a preassigned order that will unlock the bible? And therefore everyone who disagrees with you is absolutely wrong. Only you have found the key. Only you and the people who believe exactly like you have the ultimate truth. Everyone else is misinformed, misguided, or does not listen to the Holy Spirit, because if they did, they would come to realize that only what you believe is the truth, IS actually the truth.
Does that about wrap it up?
You know.. The Pharisees thought exactly like you do. Even to the point that when their own Messiah came around, but did not have the same interpretation that they did, they rebuked Jesus for eating and drinking with sinners and tax collectors. I often wonder how having that same mentality worked out for them.
Joshua David
We all have understandings, given to us by our Lord, that lead to the same place, according to the gifts we are given to take us from where we were to where we are supposed to be. The hand and the foot are of the same body, however, they perform different functions according to their comprehension and perception or judgment of a situation...precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little and there a little.
Isa 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Blessings come to those who "first" seek the Kingdom — "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
Isa 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Blessings come to those who "first" seek the Kingdom — "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
What your saying is that there is nobody whom God uses to interpret his word the Bible, that God is incapable of having an arrangement whereby his word can be unlocked with only one right interpretation, that the "truth" cannot be found. How many different keys will unlock your vehicle ? How many different keys will unlock your front door ? If a duplicate key is made, but is cut improperly, even slightly, will it unlock either your car or the front door ? Try and see if it will not jam in the lock cylinder (unless it excessivley worn). A precision lock cylinder is mated to only one key. No other key with a different cut will fit. Otherwise, anyone can use any key and steal your car or open the door to your home and take what they want.
Or if it is a combination lock, only one combination of numbers will unlock it. Just try changing the numbers and sequence and see if it will open. It won't. That is why bank's vaults are impossible to open unless the exact set of numbers and sequence is followed each and every time. In trying to go to a secure website, use of an incorrect password and user name keeps unwanted people out, such as your banking website.
If the Bible had any variety of interpretations, would that not make God as someone incoherent, confused. If you were talking to someone, and what they said was ambiguous, how could you make sense of what they said ? The apostle Paul wrote that God's "invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."(Rom 1:20) Anyone can readily see that the universe is orderly and precise, so precise that any space flights are set according to the movement of the heavenly bodies. As Paul said that "God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace."(1 Cor 14:33)
Thus, everything that God does is exact, as James wrote, that "with him there is not a variation of the turning of the shadow."(James 1:17) God does not change. He is clear-cut. Should his word the Bible be any different ? If a doctor gave ambiguous instructions regarding a patient, what might that lead to ? Perhaps death. His instructions has to be precise or else the patient might suffer for the doctor's lack of clear direction. Who wants a doctor that is "lost", that changes at random or is incoherent when dealing with a patient ? Just by looking at God's creative handiwork shows precision, exactness, not variance.
Initially, God gave his laws only to the nation of Israel, including all the detailed prophecies, such as Isaiah 53 regarding Jesus. In fact, over 350 specific prophecies were given by God to identify Jesus as the Messiah. Only through the nation of Israel and no other nation was God's word given.(Ps 147:19, 20) He has always used only a specific channel that he has selected to dispense his word and it's meaning. All others are blocked from understanding it. Proverbs 25:2 says: "The glory of God is the keeping of a matter secret, and the glory of kings is the searching through a matter."
Jesus identified that channel for spiritual food for his people as the "faithful and discreet slave", that would provide "food at the proper time."(Matt 24:45) These are Jesus words, not mind. It is because that many feel that no one is God's choice as his channel for distributing spiritual food that there is so many different viewpoints or interpretations. As Isaiah 60:2 says, that "darkness itself will cover the earth, and thick gloom the national groups; but upon you Jehovah will shine forth, and upon you his own glory will be seen." The vast majority of mankind is in "darkness", though professing to be Christian. Only those who listen to Jehovah are blessed with understanding the Bible.
Isaiah 2:2-4 brings out that the distribution of accurate knowledge of the Bible in these "final part of the days" is found at the "mountain of the house of Jehovah....and to it all the nations must stream." It then says that "many peoples will certainly go and say: ' Come, you people, and let us go to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.' For out Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem." What will Jehovah God then do ? "And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."
Jerusalem here is symbolic, for literal Jerusalem is not whom Jehovah is using, for the Jews murdered his Son (1 Thess 2:14, 15) and the Jews have far from beaten "their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears", being one of the most militarized nations on the earth. Thus, they have been "abandoned" to themselves by God.(Matt 23:37-39)
The "mountain of the house of Jehovah" is the one and only arrangement God has put into place to instruct his people. In the first century, there was only one channel for spiritual food, through the apostles and older men in Jerusalem. When the issue of circumcision arose, each congregation did not decide independently but was decided by the body of older men and apostles, that came to only one conclusion or interpretation.(Acts 15) Has God changed today ? The answer is no. One organization to dispense his "meat in due season"(Matt 24:45, King James Bible), with only one interpretation, just as it was in the first century and before. Otherwise, "the Christ exists divided."(1 Cor 1:13)
Alethos
New Member
Hi Joshua,
I trust you have been well in the Master?
In the past I have spoken about sin, its cause and affect upon humanity, as you know Joshua I have given a great amount of time and consideration to the problem of sin. I have found through the Fathers Book varying "degrees" of sin, their varying punishment and its eventual removal from the earth. After talking to many Christians around the world I have come to “appreciate” the many varying degrees of truth.
There is only One God and One Lord Jesus Christ who together speak one message of Truth. In other words they are absolute Truth and the degree of truth they hold is total.
If any of us disagreed with this we are infidels.
The Epistles of John are wonderful studies as I believe John speaks about this precious “Truth” a great detail and how it applies to us on different levels:
1 John - The Truth and the Congregation.
2 John - The Truth and the Home.
3 John - The Truth and the Individual.
Clearly for there to be truth there must be error. To this you all must agree. However, who holds error and who is willing to confess they hold absolute truth!
We must acknowledge in the past the body of Christ once held a sufficient level of truth (understanding) as to provide them with a true hope of salvation.
To this we must also agree.
However, who here wants to confess they have absolute truth?
Anyone?
What degree of truth is required by God to enter a covenant relationship with Him and His son? Are there a set basis teachings (Doctrines) that allow a believer entrance into the new covenant found in the blood of the lamb?
Whatever they are they must be simple..very simple!
Example:
The Westminster Confession of Faith (a document articulating the essential doctrines and basis of fellowship for Reformed churches) is just over 12,000 words long.
Our denominations statement of faith is 2000 words long. You will find many of the reformation churches (those from 1500 -1700 AD) will have very clear succinct statements of faith.
Evangelical Christianity is plagued with doctrinal divisions which are so badly tainted by centuries of animosity (and violence) they have created these staments to keep seperate. They have two basic doctrines of grace (Calvinist and Arminian) which are totally irreconcilable. In most cases, neither side will fellowship the other. Again most of the reformation churches (coming out of the CAtholic Church) hold one basic doctrine of grace.
Joshua, you know I have been conducting a study on the Atonement of late, which is in my view and understanding a single interpretation - it is the only one whcih saves Sin & Death. Evangelicals have at least six (6) different atonement models, each of which is subject to multiple interpretations. Some of these atonement models are sub-divided into additional models, each of which is also subject to multiple interpretations.
How has Christianity become so fractured and divided that few neither even know what Truth is, nor hold a complete message?
By creating many books you are able to establish religous systems and so simple truth is replaced with complex theology, whereby one must have a bachelor in theolgy to be saved, or one must put thier hope and confidence in ministers trained in these arts to have any hope at all!!!
Thy Word Is Truth (John 17:17)
John was one who was passionate for truth; he was a disciple who was “black and white” for truth, absolutely no shades of gray. He desired to bring fire down from heaven upon those who know not the truth! Thankfully, in his later years he matured and revealed great patience with those who were yet to discover the pearls of “truth”.
Joshua & Guestman, whatever you believe truth to be, we know Truth does not change: people just tire of it. What we know about the first century believers is they possessed great clarity of truth, although warned about the coming fog, they knew the one true baptism, the one faith and hope...the true Gospel of Christ which saves.
This very forum in many ways proves the warnings given by the Apostles were correct and accurate in thier pridcitions. Fog would come and with it confusion and every evil work.
These very arguments prove error is amongst Christianity and why not? How can a pure message be filtered through all the pomp and pride of human wisdom and all its vial histroy and come out pure?
It cannot.
Christianity has gone from a house being built on a rock (Christ) to one on quicksand.
We live in an age of “new thought” where free thinkers are able to put up any old opinion and call it truth, and they are encouraged. Just go down to your local Christian book store! I am not speaking of you both, but of a truth that many have forsaken the original Gospel for another, and another, and another – so what is the Gospel of Christ for many today? who knows? They dont!
I am not going to impress on you both the truth as revealed to me, but to say “seek the original truth” the one that was given at the time of Jesus Christ concerning the salvation of the Jews and the bringing in of the Gentiles through the “things” concerning the Kingdom of God on earth and the name of Jesus Christ.
Find the Gospel which came before the Nicene Creed and Platonic influences that destroyed “truth” and its purity. Greek Philosophy has infiltrated the original Gospel and made it a lie...no doubt about this, at all!!! Jesus Christ upon his return will show the World how far Christanity has strayed and many will hate him, yes even Christians!
If all our discussion were around "discovery" of a lost truth, one which Jesus himself said “Shall I find “the” faith (truth) in the earth” when I come.
From my perception of this forum and many others.
“Shall we find “the” faith in the earth upon his coming”
God Willing the time is cut short for the Elects sake becuase only Jesus Christ is powerful enough to reignite total truth in the Earth, and in a "truth" this is our only hope .
Alethos
All of the Churches in the Revelation, except Smyrna and Philadelphia, God had something against. It seems that total service toward others and brotherly love are that which God has nothing against.
The Spirit says to Smyrna: "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich)...".
Do we become "rich", in the eyes of God, through service to others — as Christ Jesus did?
The Spirit says to Smyrna: "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich)...".
Do we become "rich", in the eyes of God, through service to others — as Christ Jesus did?
Guestman,
No, I am not saying that at all. I know that there is 'one' truth. God's truth. You will notice here that I did not say "Guestman's truth" I realize that there is "one" way to interpret the bible. Listen, this is what I am saying, I believe it is the ultimate sense of Arrogance and Pride for a Christian to declare that out of all the bible scholars in all of history, only they have the found the right 'key' to unlocking the true biblical interpretation, therefore only they have to right to correct other Christians that they are wrong. I have read many, many bible scholars. And I agree with most of what they say. But I have yet to find one scholar that I agreed with one hundred percent. And honestly I do not believe that I will ever find anyone who seriously studies the bible, who believes exactly what I believe one hundred percent. Now, I believe what I believe, because I believe it to be true. But I also believe that when I get to Heaven, there will be many things that I will find out that I was wrong on.
I personally believe there is only one human who perfectly understands the scriptures. Who has the mind of God. Someone who's mind is continually on the work of the Father. And I got news for you, his name is NOT Guestman. When you, or anyone else comes on here, and arrogantly declare or even imply that there is only one way to look at things, and that way is your way, and everyone who does not look at the scripture your way is definitely wrong, that is not the Holy Spirit speaking through you, that is your Pride speaking.
Don't you see, it is not the idea that there is only one way to interpret the bible that I have a problem with, it is with people's assumption that they are the only ones who have figured out that one way.
That is why I rarely, if ever, come on to this boards and tell someone straight out that they are wrong. What I will say is, well I believe this.. or I disagree with you, this is what I believe. To declare that you have figured it out, and then to tell everyone else that disagrees with you that they are wrong, and worse that they will stand in judgment unless they believe exactly like you, is quite frankly, sinful. Because like I said. The Pharisees thought they had figured it out. The Saducees thought that they had figured it out. Even Satan himself thinks that he is totally right and anyone who disagrees with him, including God, is wrong.
Me, I have been and will always be a student of the word. I freely admit that I do not have everything figured out. I will freely admit that I have been wrong on things in the past. I will freely admit that I am probably wrong in some of the things that I believe now, and I will freely admit that I will be wrong on some of the things that I will believe in the future. I will freely admit that there is still more for me to learn.
All I got to say is if anyone is running around telling other people that they have it all figured out, and that everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong.. You better be right, because we will all give an account for every thoughtless word or deed.
Joshua David
No, I am not saying that at all. I know that there is 'one' truth. God's truth. You will notice here that I did not say "Guestman's truth" I realize that there is "one" way to interpret the bible. Listen, this is what I am saying, I believe it is the ultimate sense of Arrogance and Pride for a Christian to declare that out of all the bible scholars in all of history, only they have the found the right 'key' to unlocking the true biblical interpretation, therefore only they have to right to correct other Christians that they are wrong. I have read many, many bible scholars. And I agree with most of what they say. But I have yet to find one scholar that I agreed with one hundred percent. And honestly I do not believe that I will ever find anyone who seriously studies the bible, who believes exactly what I believe one hundred percent. Now, I believe what I believe, because I believe it to be true. But I also believe that when I get to Heaven, there will be many things that I will find out that I was wrong on.
I personally believe there is only one human who perfectly understands the scriptures. Who has the mind of God. Someone who's mind is continually on the work of the Father. And I got news for you, his name is NOT Guestman. When you, or anyone else comes on here, and arrogantly declare or even imply that there is only one way to look at things, and that way is your way, and everyone who does not look at the scripture your way is definitely wrong, that is not the Holy Spirit speaking through you, that is your Pride speaking.
Don't you see, it is not the idea that there is only one way to interpret the bible that I have a problem with, it is with people's assumption that they are the only ones who have figured out that one way.
That is why I rarely, if ever, come on to this boards and tell someone straight out that they are wrong. What I will say is, well I believe this.. or I disagree with you, this is what I believe. To declare that you have figured it out, and then to tell everyone else that disagrees with you that they are wrong, and worse that they will stand in judgment unless they believe exactly like you, is quite frankly, sinful. Because like I said. The Pharisees thought they had figured it out. The Saducees thought that they had figured it out. Even Satan himself thinks that he is totally right and anyone who disagrees with him, including God, is wrong.
Me, I have been and will always be a student of the word. I freely admit that I do not have everything figured out. I will freely admit that I have been wrong on things in the past. I will freely admit that I am probably wrong in some of the things that I believe now, and I will freely admit that I will be wrong on some of the things that I will believe in the future. I will freely admit that there is still more for me to learn.
All I got to say is if anyone is running around telling other people that they have it all figured out, and that everyone else is wrong, wrong, wrong.. You better be right, because we will all give an account for every thoughtless word or deed.
Joshua David
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