Understanding : Born Again.

[michaelvpardo]

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

conclusion: the new birth like our physical birth is Gods doing. God controls both our physical and spiritual births.

hope this helps !!!

Excellent post, but I would suggest that you edit it slightly in reference to the Holy Spirit. I believe personal pronouns are more appropriate when referencing the God head (using He rather than it.) Jesus in speaking about the "helper" described the Holy Spirit as one like Him.
It may sound trivial, but it is serious error to think of the Holy Spirit as some unnamed power that men can learn to manipulate (like "the force" in the Star wars movies) and there actually are cultists out there that believe such things.
I think that Simon the Sorcerer (having been a sorcerer) started out with this misconception.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! Acts 8:18-20
As Christians, we don't manipulate the Holy Spirit to do good works, but He does good works through us with the "unction" to will and to do.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

conclusion: the new birth like our physical birth is Gods doing. God controls both our physical and spiritual births.

hope this helps !!!

Excellent post, but I would suggest that you edit it slightly in reference to the Holy Spirit

You can't walk as Christ walked without him being in you by the Holy Spirit. You've created a fictitious person to illustrate a false point.

For apart from Me you can do nothing. John 15:5​

The defining quality of the legalist is not his obedience, it's his hypocrisy.

If someone is walking as Christ walked they are righteous as he is righteous.

The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 1 John 3:7​

I think the point is that religious works do not save. Buddhists, Taoist, and even Jews believe in doing good works to spiritually advance themselves, but how many are Christians?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Water Baptism, is like putting on an Army Uniform.
It what you wear because you are IN the Army.
But you can wear it, and not be in the Army.

Salvation, is you being birthed into God's Spirit, by God's Spirit.
There is no water in God's Spirit, and there is no water that can birth you into God's Spirit.

I agree with you, but this simple act of obedience is significant in the life of a saint in expressing our means of sanctification, identifying with Christ in His death, and rising (from the waters representing that death) to a new life in Christ. Paul exhorts us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and live according to the Spirit. I don't believe that our failings in this are condemning, but some sin absolutely leads to physical death. City morgues are full of bodies that got there because of the sin of their former inhabitants.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?

So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :

1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom

conclusion: the new birth like our physical birth is Gods doing. God controls both our physical and spiritual births.

hope this helps !!!

Excellent post, but I would suggest that you edit it slightly in reference to the Holy Spirit. Some people think that the Holy Spirit is a force that we can manipulate, but He's a person, one like Christ, so personal pronouns are more accurate and less likely to promote that error.

When studying The Acts of the APOSTLES... (Acts), we discover that there are several instances of water baptism.
In each case, the person BELIEVES,.................... and is then dunked.
Water follows Salvation, it does not cause it, and it does not resolve it.

I was born again, 11 yrs before i was "immersed" in a tank of blue water.
AS the water was being drained subsequent to my immersion, the person standing near me said of the water...>"there go your sins".
I smiled inside and thought......"idiot, my sins are on Jesus The Christ, 2000 yrs ago".

The dying Thief on the Cross, is currently still waiting to be immersed in water.
When we the born again, all get to heaven, we can ask him about the fact that he is in Heaven, and was never "water baptized" after we kneel at the feet of Jesus and thank God for His blood that allowed us to be there.

The water of Baptism represents death and the thief died on the cross.
37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?” Mark 10:37-38
In this verse Jesus was already baptized by John and was referring to the manner of His death.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And, you can think that you are born again; but if you are a worker (doer) of iniquity, you will go to hell like a bullet when you die (Matthew 13:41-42; Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:41).

What defines the born again person but the fact that he has turned away from his sins?

I don't think that anyone who has truly ceased from sinning is not born again. After all, the argument of many so-called Christians is that you cannot cease from sinning even as a believer in Christ. So, if anyone has truly ceased from sinning, you know that that is a supernatural work of the Holy Ghost.

You're sinless?

 

[michaelvpardo]

You


No one can be spiritually "born again" by water.

Water is water and Spirit is Spirit.
They are not the same, no matter how the Catholics and the Jehovah's Witness try to teach otherwise..

Listen, reader,
Water, only touches your body. It can't touch your spirit.

To be born again, you have to be spiritually re-birthed......or as Jesus explains....>"you must be born again".
This is not a 2nd birth of the body, its a regeneration of the SPIRIT that is born again into the Spirit of God, BY the Holy Spirit of God.
The Holy Spirit of God is not water.
Water can't produce spiritual birth.
Only The Spirit of God, can produce a spiritual birth, so, if a false teacher or similar teaches you that water is God, then deny them and avoid them.

See, to teach that Water causes spiritual birth is to teach that water is the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit.
This is a SATANIC LIE.
To teach this Satanic Lie in public, or from a pulpit, is : Galatians 1:8

In the gospels, the most difficult people to reach, the ones Jesus sometimes referred to as sons of the devil, were those confident in their own righteousness, scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees. The church has its own version.

 

[Aries]

Greetings,

The born-again experience is for the inside of your vessel your spirit is reborn this fulfills the promise God made to Eve in the garden of Eden to restore everything and reconcile mankind back to God.

Water baptism is for the outside of your vessel it is an outward sign and public declaration of your repentance and symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

We bury our old nature and arise new creatures in Christ Jesus.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit unites your reborn spirit and your new rebirthed body and empowers the vessel to evangelise testify witness and minister to the needs of other people.

This process is to fully equip the believer.

Peace.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree. There is no justification, in regard to the particular definition of justified that James is using, apart from obeying God.

The man who does not obey God is showing that he has not been justified through faith apart from works. So, obviously, the man who does not obey God can not somehow be justified (shown to be righteous) by something he has not done. He doesn't have any obedience to justify him as being righteous.

I think it obvious that you need to have faith to be justified (made righteous) by faith apart from works, and that you need works to be justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

One cannot be justified BEFORE one obeys. One must first obey BEFORE he can be justified. If one is justified BEFORE one obeys that has GOd justifying the reprobate, ungodly sinner which He does not.

No one can be justified by faith alone, that is, justified by faith void of obedience, James 2. Romans 4:5 and Ephesians 2:9 eliminate flawless, sinless works required by the OT law and works or works of merit from justifying men but neither eliminate obedience.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Being a 'faith only-ists', as you put it, simply means a man is made righteous, not by doing righteous works (that's literally the works gospel condemned in scripture), but by believing that the blood of Christ is the atonement for one's sins, and so being made righteous in God's sight that way.

No one can be made righteous apart from doing righteousness. 1 John 3:10 as long as one continues to not do righteous, he continues to not be of God,,he continues to be unrighteous. Calvinism tries to put the cart before the horse in having one somehow be righteous BEFORE one even does any righteousness...an impossibility.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That is literally the works gospel that is condemned in scripture. Instead of doing righteous things and offering that righteousness up to God, you receive God's righteousness by believing in His promise of forgiveness through the blood of his Son, thus having your unrighteousness removed, and having it replaced with His righteousness.

The ONLY way you can have your unrighteousness taken away so that you can be righteous in God's sight is to have it forgiven. That is what makes justification/salvation a free gift of grace, not works.

Faith only-ist err in not understanding, or refusing to understand that all works are not alike. No verse eliminates any and all kinds of works from salvation for NO verse eliminates obedience to God's righteousness while other verses do eliminate works of the OT law and works of merit.

Romans 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are clearly two different types of works mentioned in this one verse:
1) going about to establish their own righteousness
2) submitting/obeying God's righteousness

Paul was lamenting over the fact his brethren in the flesh the Jews were lost, Romans 10:1. And Paul tells us in verse 3 why they were lost for they were doing the wrong work in going about doing their own righteousness, following their own traditions which does not justify. Had they done the other work in doing God's righteousness they could have been saved.
There is obviously a world of difference in one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing God's righteousness, a difference faith only-ist do not want to recognize.

Justification is a free gift but NOT an unconditional free gift for God has places preconditions (obedience) upon the free gift. If grace were unconditionally received then all universally would be saved (Titus 2:11).
Again, faith only-ist err in refusing to understand this simple fact, reality. Not a single example of one obeying God yet their obedience is said to have earned God's free gift. Naaman (2 Kings 5) was a leper. God owed him NOTHING but God graciously provided a means to Naaman to be cleansed of his disease by Namaan obeying by dipping seven times in the Jordan river as God directed, (2 Kings 5:10) Not until he finally did GOD'S righteousness as God directed in dipping seven times in the Jordan did God heal him. As long as Naaman wanted to do his OWN righteousness by dipping in other 'better' rivers he would not be healed (2 Kings 5:11-12). Yet Naaman's obedience in doing God's righteousness did not earn Him God's gracious gift but a necessary precondition God placed upon his free gift.

John 6:27 "Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed."

Jesus GIVES eternal life for it a free gift which He does give to man. Yet at the same time Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto eternal life. Why then work when Jesus gives eternal life for free? For eternal life is a free gift that comes with conditions and one must work (believe) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life and the work of believing earns nothing no more than Naaman's work in going and dipping seven time in the Jordan earned his free gracious gift of healing.

 

[TEXBOW]

Faith only-ist err in not understanding, or refusing to understand that all works are not alike. No verse eliminates any and all kinds of works from salvation for NO verse eliminates obedience to God's righteousness while other verses do eliminate works of the OT law and works of merit.

Romans 10:3
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are clearly two different types of works mentioned in this one verse:
1) going about to establish their own righteousness
2) submitting/obeying God's righteousness

Paul was lamenting over the fact his brethren in the flesh the Jews were lost, Romans 10:1. And Paul tells us in verse 3 why they were lost for they were doing the wrong work in going about doing their own righteousness, following their own traditions which does not justify. Had they done the other work in doing God's righteousness they could have been saved.
There is obviously a world of difference in one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing God's righteousness, a difference faith only-ist do not want to recognize.

Justification is a free gift but NOT an unconditional free gift for God has places preconditions (obedience) upon the free gift. If grace were unconditionally received then all universally would be saved (Titus 2:11).
Again, faith only-ist err in refusing to understand this simple fact, reality. Not a single example of one obeying God yet their obedience is said to have earned God's free gift. Naaman (2 Kings 5) was a leper. God owed him NOTHING but God graciously provided a means to Naaman to be cleansed of his disease by Namaan obeying by dipping seven times in the Jordan river as God directed, (2 Kings 5:10) Not until he finally did GOD'S righteousness as God directed in dipping seven times in the Jordan did God heal him. As long as Naaman wanted to do his OWN righteousness by dipping in other 'better' rivers he would not be healed (2 Kings 5:11-12). Yet Naaman's obedience in doing God's righteousness did not earn Him God's gracious gift but a necessary precondition God placed upon his free gift.

John 6:27 "Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed."

Jesus GIVES eternal life for it a free gift which He does give to man. Yet at the same time Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto eternal life. Why then work when Jesus gives eternal life for free? For eternal life is a free gift that comes with conditions and one must work (believe) in order to receive the free gift of eternal life and the work of believing earns nothing no more than Naaman's work in going and dipping seven time in the Jordan earned his free gracious gift of healing.

I'm with you on this. I think it sometimes comes down to how one defines salvation. I believed, repented, and had faith before anything changed in my life. The very definition of repentance is to make a change, a different direction, a new you following the Spirit rather than the flesh. If you are not a changed person examine yourself. The new you will grow in God's word and Spirit. Obedience out of love of serving our savior is evidence of your walk in the Spirit. If a person abandons their faith obedience suffers and you are in a backslidden state in danger of falling from grace.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm with you on this. I think it sometimes comes down to how one defines salvation. I believed, repented, and had faith before anything changed in my life. The very definition of repentance is to make a change, a different direction, a new you following the Spirit rather than the flesh. If you are not a changed person examine yourself. The new you will grow in God's word and Spirit. Obedience out of love of serving our savior is evidence of your walk in the Spirit. If a person abandons their faith obedience suffers and you are in a backslidden state in danger of falling from grace.

And believing (John 6:27) and repentance (Matthew 12:41 cf Jonah 3:10) are both obedient works, they are doing God's righteousness and earn nothing but necessary in order to receive the gift of salvation. The unbeliever (John 3:18) and impenitent (Romans 2:4-5; Luke 13:3) will not receive the free gift of salvation.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

All Christians must be water baptised, this is in the hope that one becomes baptised with the Holy Spirit.

One who is water baptised is like entering into the Tribe, Like the Jews were under a Tribe, but not Saved ? only some of the Jews were worthy of God and they were called Israel.
We see 2 real examples in the Bible of such named Israel ! because they were truly worthy of the Name, so we have Jacob given the title Israel because ? of what ? and who gives this Name ? An Angel in fact.
Then the 2ed one is Nathaniel by Jesus himself who explains why it is so, that he names Nathaniel a True Israelite ! Nathaniel is the epitome of such and not to mention what did Jesus say that he would see ?

So if you are not like Nathaniel you are not worthy of Israel as to Gods standards.

Now comes the real fact part, if you are not worthy of the epitome of Nathaniel you are not worthy of God in fact.
So you have to be truly born again to be worthy of Christ Jesus.

A truly born again person is not a slob, What does the Commandments say ? now with what ? your whole what ?

One still can Sin, but one is not possessed by Sin like they who are not saved because they do not understand the works of the Devil, because they are of This world ? they are under delusions and deceptions of this world enslaved by Sin.

You who are truly saved are not of this world and are now of the Kingdom of god. now what is your life now ? you become a what for God !
What did Jesus say he did for the Father ? you do the same ! abide in him. Christ Jesus is Salvation !

No slob ever got Salvation or all of the Jews would of been Saved, but the majority rejected Salvation. as is the case, as narrow is the way not the wide. people who push that such is a wide gate are leading people astray.

Not many people are truly born again, such does not come to you by the works of Man at all, but by Christ Jesus himself, he will come to you if you are worthy of him. because he knows you are one of his own. one is not a religious ! you have come out from them and come to the living Christ Jesus !
Religion never saved anyone. only Christ Jesus saves !

The greatest religion today is Communism ! what a passion and what zeal, it's contagious like Political Correctness ! sadly it's all of Mans works just like the Jews who were that lost that they were only carnal. Lacking the Holy Spirit to guide them, for they rejected such for their works. that's why they kill. Jesus explains such and that's why they killed Jesus.

If one does not know why it is that carnal religious people killed Jesus, one is not truly born again.