Understanding : Born Again.

[theefaith]

@Pearl In Acts 2.41, the new believers were baptized because they were believers, not supposedly in order to become believers...

Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-37 both faith and baptism acts 2:28-39 promise of the father from ez 36:25-27

 

[Ferris Bueller]

faith alone, all by itself, does not justify... James 2.

Actually faith does justify all by itself. That's Paul's argument. Paul is referring to being justified (made righteous) by faith without works.
James is referring to being justified (shown to be righteous) by what you do.
Paul and James are making two different arguments about justification, not contradictory arguments about justification as many people argue.

If you do not believe there are these two different definitions and usages of the word 'justified', click here: justify
Besides, in context, you can see that Paul is talking about being made righteous by faith (Romans 3:22), and that James is talking about showing the righteousness you have by faith by what you do (James 2:18).

Abraham was made righteous through his faith all by itself without works. Abraham showed he had that righteousness by what he did.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually faith does justify all by itself. That's Paul's argument. Paul is referring to being justified (made righteous) by faith without works.
James is referring to being justified (shown to be righteous) by what you do.
Paul and James are making two different arguments about justification, not contradictory arguments about justification as many people argue.

If you do not believe there are these two different definitions and usages of the word 'justified', click here: justify
Besides, in context, you can see that Paul is talking about being made righteous by faith (Romans 3:22), and that James is talking about showing the righteousness you have by faith by what you do (James 2:18).

Abraham was made righteous through his faith all by itself without works. Abraham showed he had that righteousness by what he did.

Romans 5:1------faith>>>>>>>>>>justified
James 2:24-----faith only>>>>>>>not justifies

If "faith" and "faith only" were the same thing then both would justify or neither would justify. The fact "faith" justifies and "faith only" does not justify prove they are not the same...faith includes obedience while faith only is void of obedience.

The faith Paul says justifies in Romans 5:1 includes obedience:

Romans 5:1---------------faith >>>>>>>>>> justifies
Romans 6:17-18-------obey from heart >>>> justified/free from sin

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified and the Bible does not contradict itself, then faith is obedience, faith itself is a work, a work of obedience, Romans 16:26; Galatians 5:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Mark 2:1-5.

Neither James nor Paul say Abraham was justified by faith alone, that is, justified by faith apart from obedience.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

----how can Abraham be one who "worketh not" when in fact he did do obedient works in moving (Hebrews 11:8) and offered Isaac (Hebrews 11:17)..his faith INCLUDED obedient works and he was justified by obedient works James 2:21. Abraham could never been justified had he disobeyed God and not moved from his home or not offering Isaac.....James 2:20 faith apart from obedient works is dead and a dead faith only cannot justify.

----in the context of Romans chapters 1-4, the only kind of work Paul says in this context that does not justify is the works required by the OT law. The OT law required one work to keep all of it perfectly in order to be justified by it. Romans 5:17-15 Paul shows obedience does justify:

works of the OT>>>>>not justify
obedient works>>>>>justify

So when Paul says Abraham "worketh not" means Abraham was not one who worked to keep the OT law perfectly to be justified. Abraham did not even live under the OT law of Moses and he could not be justified by a law he did not live under Romans 4:9-10. David did live under the OT but was not justified by it for he sinned. So neither one was justified by works required by the OT law but justified by faith. Romans 3:28 Paul CONTRASTS works of the OT law from an obedient faith. So the only kind of work that "worketh not" excludes is works of the OT law and not all works.

Again, "worketh not" does not mean "obey not" because Abraham did for a fact do obedient works Hebrews 11:8,17 and Paul says obeying from the heart justifies/frees from sin Romans 6:17-18.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Romans 5:1------faith>>>>>>>>>>justified
James 2:24-----faith only>>>>>>>not justifies

I completely agree with this, but what you write doesn't mean anything if you're not going to explain which definition of 'justified' you think each is using. Then we can know if what you say lines up with and agrees with James and Paul each have to say about justification.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If "faith" and "faith only" were the same thing then both would justify or neither would justify.

What you aren't doing is examining whether 'justified' means the same thing in Romans 4 as it does in James 2. That's where you're going wrong. Examining the faith issue itself will not get you anywhere.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The fact "faith" justifies and "faith only" does not justify prove they are not the same...

What it proves is 'justified' is the point that is not the same thing! That's where you're dropping the ball on this matter. I don't blame you. I blame a misinformed leadership that is supposed to know the difference between Paul's justification and James' justification and doesn't!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The faith Paul says justifies in Romans 5:1 includes obedience:

...just not as the agent of justification itself. But, surely, genuine faith will produce works.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I completely agree with this, but what you write doesn't mean anything if you're not going to explain which definition of 'justified' you think each is using. Then we can know if what you say lines up with and agrees with James and Paul each have to say about justification.

justified means just-as-if-I'd never done it. In Romans 6:17-18 Paul says one obeys from the then free from sin with free from sin = justified, God erases the sins as if a person had never committed those sins.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What you aren't doing is examining whether 'justified' means the same thing in Romans 4 as it does in James 2. That's where you're going wrong. Examining the faith issue itself will not get you anywhere.

The same Greek word is used in both texts. There is nothing in either context that shows justified is being used differently, that takes a theological bias.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What it proves is 'justified' is the point that is not the same thing! That's where you're dropping the ball on this matter. I don't blame you. I blame a misinformed leadership that is supposed to know the difference between Paul's justification and James' justification and doesn't!

You have CLAIMED Paul and James are using the word justified differently but have not shown proof.

Again, James 2:21 ------------works >>>>>>>>> justify
Romans 6:17-18-----------obey from the heart >> justifies/free from sins

There is but one way to be saved/justified and both James and Paul agree obedience to God's will justifies. NOWHERE EVER in the Bible does it teach that disobedience to God's will justifies. Therefore as long as one disobeys God he will never be justified.

In the same context of James 2, James also says Rahab was justified by works. Some try and misuse Rom 4:5 to "prove" Abraham was not justified by any work at all, what verse is used to show Rahab was justified by "faith alone" apart from any work at all? James 2:26 faith without obedient works is dead and a dead faith cannot save/justify. Rahab was the exact opposite of Abraham, she was a prostitute and a pagan. The reason James would compare two completely different, contrasting people was to prove that the only kind of faith acceptable to God, (no matter who the person is), is a faith that works obedience in doing God's will. No matter a person's background anyone can obey God and be justified and God requires obedience no matter the person's background. "Barclay notes, "and unless Rahab had been prepared to risk all to help the spies her faith would have been a useless thing" (p. 92). "By his choice of Abraham and Rahab, therefore, James shows not only that the acid test of faith is works but also that this principle has universal application, embracing both patriarch and prostitute" (Adamson p. 134). Woods notes, "Abraham and Rahab------the former from the highest ranks of the most illustrious, the second from one who had been on the lowest rung of the social ladder, to show that in neither instance was salvation by faith only" (p. 150). James makes it clear that God doesn't lower His standards for people from lowly backgrounds. The spirituality demanded of the former prostitute is the same spirituality which is demanded of the noble citizen or founding father." Dunagan Commentary.


Unless/until faith is acted upon by obedience that faith remains dead, worthless.

 

[marks]

What you aren't doing is examining whether 'justified' means the same thing in Romans 4 as it does in James 2. That's where you're going wrong. Examining the faith issue itself will not get you anywhere.

The question would be, Justified to whom?

Romans, God justifies us to Himself. He finds us not guilty. James, we are justified to others, they find us not guilty. God doesn't need to test our faith to know if it is real. He already knows.

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...just not as the agent of justification itself. But, surely, genuine faith will produce works.

There is no justification apart from obeying God

1 John 3:10 as long as one continues doing unrighteousness (continues disobeying God) one continues to not be of God. And obedience to God's will is NEVER anywhere in the Bible said to be earning God's free gift. Hence any argument that the work of obeying God is earning God's free gift has no Biblical. logical basis.

 

[marks]

The same Greek word is used in both texts. There is nothing in either context that shows justified is being used differently, that takes a theological bias.

It's there. Context.

The word means the same, the question is, to whom are we justified? God doesn't need proof of the genuineness of our faith, He already knows.

Much love!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's there. Context.

The word means the same, the question is, to whom are we justified? God doesn't need proof of the genuineness of our faith, He already knows.

Much love!

God justifies men, the issue is whom does God justify and why? Why does God justify one man and not another? The reason being one man obeys God's will and justified by God while most men will not obey and not be justified by God. 'Faith only' is not the basis for God justifying one person and not another but obedience to God is the basis. Hebrews 11:8 Abraham by faith moved from his homeland. Hid faith included obedience and without that obedience he would never been justified. From Genesis, Abraham been made righteous/justified was a process over time and did not happen at one moment in time by faith alone apart from obedience. No example of God justifying men who remained in rebellion, disobedience to God's will. They first had to repent and do righteousness in order for them to be righteous before God. Faith only-ists err when they continually think obedience to God's will is earning God's free gift.

 

[marks]

Romans 5:1 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no justification apart from obeying God

I agree. There is no justification, in regard to the particular definition of justified that James is using, apart from obeying God.

The man who does not obey God is showing that he has not been justified through faith apart from works. So, obviously, the man who does not obey God can not somehow be justified (shown to be righteous) by something he has not done. He doesn't have any obedience to justify him as being righteous.

I think it obvious that you need to have faith to be justified (made righteous) by faith apart from works, and that you need works to be justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

 

[TEXBOW]

Being born again for me was a changing of the guard. The Holy Spirit within me was now in charge and not my flesh. A transformation took place post repentance. A new direction, new desires, a casting off of the old me. Joy. Happiness in my new self. The battle between the flesh and Spirit is and will always be there but now the Spirit wins most of the time and when I fail I'm convicted to repent and seek forgiveness. My relationship with God is the priority.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Faith only-ists err when they continually think obedience to God's will is earning God's free gift.

Being a 'faith only-ists', as you put it, simply means a man is made righteous, not by doing righteous works (that's literally the works gospel condemned in scripture), but by believing that the blood of Christ is the atonement for one's sins, and so being made righteous in God's sight that way.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

They first had to repent and do righteousness in order for them to be righteous before God.

That is literally the works gospel that is condemned in scripture. Instead of doing righteous things and offering that righteousness up to God, you receive God's righteousness by believing in His promise of forgiveness through the blood of his Son, thus having your unrighteousness removed, and having it replaced with His righteousness.

The ONLY way you can have your unrighteousness taken away so that you can be righteous in God's sight is to have it forgiven. That is what makes justification/salvation a free gift of grace, not works.

 

[Taken]

Understanding : Born Again.
OP ^

Gods Grace
OT man - believes in God at physical death - Saved
NT Tribes - believes in God at physical death - Saved
Forward - after- present —->
Man Believes in God at physical death - Saved
Man Believes in Jesus at physical death - Saved
^^ Bodily raised after 1,000 year reign ^^^

Man (Tribesman, Jew, Gentile)
* God knows the mans natural spirit
* mans natural spirit ie (thoughts in his heart)

* man Confesses from natural spirit in his “hearts thoughts”
* man Calls out to the Lord Jesus, (ie Gods advocate)
* man Freely willingly Confesses Belief in God, in Christ Jesus
* man Freely Repents for NOT having HAD belief
* mans spirit in heart searched, (by God), IF confession is True;
* Christ (ie Power of God, Seed of God, Wisdom of God)
~ Forgives SIN of having HAD disbelief
~ Forgives SIN of corrupting the soul
~ Forgives all Trespasses against men & God
* man Freely offers his Body Crucified with Christ Jesus

* Christ’s Supernatural “unseen” Works
~ Spiritual Baptism
~ Soul is restored ie Saved alive forever with God
~ Circumcises natural heart
~ Gives man a new heart
~ Gods Spirit of Truth Enters new heart
~ Gives man Gods Seed
* mans spirit is Reborn alive forever with God
~ Gods Spirit of T- “feeds” mans spirit with Gods Word of Truth
* man has Direct access spiritual prayer to Lord God Almighty
~ (prayers, praise, worship, thankfulness, asking, direction, comfort, Gods gift of His understanding, etc.)

MANS BODY ~
* Crucified with Christ Jesus
* Still subject to physical death
* Spiritually Lives “IN” Jesus’ Risen Body
* Body is: (By Christ’s Power)
~ Kept with Christ, (until called up by the Lord)
~ Washed (in Jesus’ Blood)
~ Sanctified (set apart from others not sanctified)
~ Justified (to be risen up uncorrupted)
~ Covered (Gods Light, SIN not seen/remembered, by God)

MAN ~
* body * soul * spirit *
~ accounted FREED from Sin (can Sin no more)
~ accounted SEALED unto God
~ accounted NOT subject to WRATH
~ accounted “adopted” son of God
~ accounted “temporarily” “IN” Christ (using His body till death)
~ accounted forever Gods Seed “IN” the man
~ accounted forever “WITH” the Lord God Almighty
~ accounted Faith-FULL forever
~ accounted “brothers” with others “Faith-FULL”.
~ accounted as “saints”
~ accounted to be “called” Christ’s Church
~ accounted “prepared” to do works to Glorify God on Earth
~ accounted to be “called up” /clouds, Before Wrath upon Earth
~ accounted to be “joined” with Christ Jesus in Wed-ceremony.
~ accounted to “see” Christ Jesus as He is.
~ accounted to “occupy” Christ’s millennial Earthly Kingdom

End of millennial Kingdom
~ Son of Man (with power) returns to Earth
~ Rest of dead body’s (of saved souls) raised & quickened
...(God believers & Jesus believers...who physically died “WITH” ....God or Jesus; but not “with-IN” Christ )
~ All accounted to be Judged
~ All accounted to be Sentenced
~ accounted acceptably WITH God forever, as He is.
~ accounted “works” that Glorified God, “rewarded”
~ accounted “works” that did not Glorify God, “burned”
....(Dead body’s void of belief also raised, judged, sentenced...forever ....WITHOUT God )
~ accounted “holy” and to “occupy” renewed Earth, Gods Earthly Kingdom, FOREVER WITH God, (see Him) as He is.

** While a man Baptized in the Spirit of God, remains on Earth...
He can, likely will, Trespass Against Other men...and have Other men Trespass Against him.....Forgiveness of Trespasses between and among men is Taught to do...
** Trespassing of men against men, is inevitable...(Men know not all things).
The Remedy to Accept Forgiveness and Give Forgiveness and making Right any harm caused.

Glory to God,
Taken