Understanding The Great Trib

[Truth7t7]

I see you like only the Scriptures that you can find that agree with you, and disregard the rest, like these...

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV

How do we reconcile what Lord Jesus said in the above, because in verse 16 He said 'some' of us will be delivered up and be put to death? But in verse 18 He said not a hair of our head will perish. It simply means what it says, that SOME... of us will be delivered up and be put to death. That is revealed within the 5th Seal timing also for the end...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

Specifically, that is about those of us that are 'delivered up' to give that Testimony for Christ against the beast. That duty during the coming tribulation will not be upon all of Christ's Church (otherwise there wouldn't be a Church still on earth for Christ to gather when He returns).

John 16:2
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
KJV

Matt 24:9-10
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
KJV

I sense that you hold to men's doctrine of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory. They bypass all the above Scripture evidence about the 'end' that I spoke of.

Revelation 12:6, The Remnant Church In The Wilderness Explained?

Scripture strongly suggest that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

 

[Davy]

Revelation 12:6, The Remnant Church In The Wilderness Explained?

Scripture strongly suggest that the 144,000 the remnant church will be localized to Jerusalem, and ethnic to the location Israel, "the remnant of his heritage"

Below you see the future fulfilling of the gentiles and desolation in Jerusalem, armies from the worlds nations, from sea to sea

Below you see the Remnant being fed in the wilderness of Carmel, Bashan, Gilead, manna from heaven, as in the days of old in coming out of Egypt, the world watches in fear of the Lords power

Revelation 12:6KJV
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Micah 7:10-18KJV
10 Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the Lord thy God? mine eyes shall behold her: now shall she be trodden down as the mire of the streets.
11 In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.
12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 Notwithstanding the land shall be desolate because of them that dwell therein, for the fruit of their doings.
14 Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.
15 According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.
16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.
17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.
18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

I disagree.

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJV


It's because of this...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV


The two candlesticks represents 2 of Christ's seven Churches in Revelation that will make a stand... along with His two witnesses in Jerusalem. Those two Churches are allegorical now for His elect in ALL... Churches over the whole world.

Thus the 144,000 represent Christ's elect out of all 12 tribes of the seed of Israel throughout the whole world, sealed with God's seal in prep for the tribulation at the end of this world.

The "great multitude" of Revelation 7 also represent Christ's elect servants of the Gentiles that will make a stand during the tribulation, and come out of it having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

I disagree.

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
KJV


It's because of this...

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV


The two candlesticks represents 2 of Christ's seven Churches in Revelation that will make a stand... along with His two witnesses in Jerusalem. Those two Churches are allegorical now for His elect in ALL... Churches over the whole world.

Thus the 144,000 represent Christ's elect out of all 12 tribes of the seed of Israel throughout the whole world, sealed with God's seal in prep for the tribulation at the end of this world.

The "great multitude" of Revelation 7 also represent Christ's elect servants of the Gentiles that will make a stand during the tribulation, and come out of it having washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb.

The (Two Witnesses) "Alone" in Revelation Chapter 11 are the two olive trees and two candlesticks, they are the golden "Pipes" that will pour the golden oil/vials of Gods wrath upon the wicked world in "Plagues", this being the golden oil in the prayers of the saints

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The explanation of Revelation 11:3-6, The Two Witnesses Are The olive trees and candlesticks, the two golden "Pipes" through which the golden oil in the vials of Gods wrath will flow in the seven plagues

Zechariah 4:1-14KJV
1 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
5 Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.
7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.
8 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
9 The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you.
10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth.
11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 15:7-8KJV
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 5:8KJV
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[Timtofly]

You need to re-study this subject, because your argument ironically disagrees with scripture:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." - Matt. 24:21-22

In this passage, Christ said unless the Tribulation was shortened, no one would remain alive. Christ clearly prophesied here that the entire human race would be in danger of being exterminated if He didn't return.

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev. 3:10

This passage alone destroys your argument because Christ (a) promised the Philadelphians protection from the Tribulation and (b) stated that the Tribulation would affect the whole world. The Bible does not teach anywhere that the Tribulation would only affect Christians who refuse the mark. It also doesn't teach that no Christian would be protected in a place of safety during the Tribulation. There is no need for the Philadelphians to be tested in the Tribulation because Christ already commended this particular group in Rev. 3:8 for their loyalty to the truth and His authority.

The point is not to save or prolong Adam's sinful flesh nature.

The point is about saving souls from this sinful flesh. The longer God withholds the Second Coming the more will accept the Atonement of the Cross by faith. That opportunity will stop at the Second Coming. The church will be complete and glorified at the Second Coming. No more added after that point.

Which by the way, happens before the GT. The GT will be shorter after the Second Coming, not shorter because the Second Coming happens sooner.

The church is not going to go through the GT.

 

[Davy]

The point is not to save or prolong Adam's sinful flesh nature.

The point is about saving souls from this sinful flesh. The longer God withholds the Second Coming the more will accept the Atonement of the Cross by faith. That opportunity will stop at the Second Coming. The church will be complete and glorified at the Second Coming. No more added after that point.

God's blindness upon the unbelieving Jews will remain that way all the way to the day of Christ's coming at the end of the great tribulation. Otherwise, the prophecy Jesus gave in Luke 23, and the Zechariah 12 prophecy that they will be in shame when they see Him, could not come to pass.

God's Word in Revelation 13 points out that the whole world... except for those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be deceived by the dragon. That reveals that just before the trib starts, the dividing line between the deceived, and Christ's very elect, will be set. Thus those ideas you learned from the Pre-trib Rapture doctors is not Biblical.

Which by the way, happens before the GT. The GT will be shorter after the Second Coming, not shorter because the Second Coming happens sooner.

The church is not going to go through the GT.

Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming at the end to gather His Church is AFTER the tribulation. Thus you are wrong, and are following what men say instead of what God says in His Word.

 

[NewMusic]

This is even why Lord Jesus showed in Luke 17 that those who seek to save... their lives (their physical flesh), shall lose it.

But those who lose their life (for His sake) will have His Salvation of eternal life...

Luke 17:31-37
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

While your overall understanding of the End Days is good, you make a few errors and I need to call one or two of the significant ones out, when I sense the need.

Your misunderstanding of the passage you quote above must be addressed. You exchange different Greek words to arrive at your false counsel.

So before resorting to logic to prove my point from the scriptures (something I see you try to use with others and accuse them of issues for not being able to keep constancy between the teachings of the bible), I'll start with the irrefutable:

The Greek word for life in the verse you quote of Jesus is psuche, which is the word for soul. NOT sarx, which is the word for the physical flesh!

So for you to argue that when Jesus said "He who seeks to save his life (psuche), will lose it" is referring to a person's physical flesh (sarx) is utterly WRONG. This is NOT what Jesus said.

He was speaking about followers who attempt to live according to their souls, rather than by the Spirit. The soul must be crucified. Daily. If not, then the spirit life will die. If you are full of yourself, then your spiritual life will be nonexistent. IF you die utterly to the soul's assertions (the way Jesus did) then you will be full of God's life. Even though Jesus' soul was perfect, He crucified it always as He said here:

John 5:19 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise."

and

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.

God cannot fill full containers. He can only fill empty containers. And this is why almost all christianity is carnal. They live according to their souls, rather than crucifying their self life and being led and governed by the Holy Spirit.

Examples of soul life:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Now, to further address this issue using logic, because if what you said were the truth then we would have severe inconsistencies in the bible where we see men of God seeking to escape being captured and imprisoned with the known consequences thereof.

Let's start with the Lord Jesus' own words:

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt 24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

That speaks for itself, does it not? Davy, this completely contradicts your own assertion about saving one's physical life.

Then we also have Paul telling us about this occurrence:

2 Cor 11:32 At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me,
2 Cor 11:33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

Obviously, Paul sought escape to save his sarx (flesh, physical life) and did so!

I could write more, but if you reject what I have just written, which should be enough, then you too (as you have accused others of) will only be choosing to interpret passages in a manner to agree with your own thinking.

= = = = =

So everyone reading this, by all means try to escape torture and imprisonment. Most will not be able to given the resources of the governments. But you are exhorted by Jesus to try.

And then if you are captured, stand strong and give testimony of the Lord Jesus. Endure to the end.


One last bit of wisdom:

The days are turning very dark already and during the last 3½ years of the age, when men are taking the mark of the beast, no work can be done. It would be foolish and vain to share Christ with people who have taken the mark, unless you desire to go to jail and be tortured.

John 9:4 "We must work the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night comes when no one can work."

 

[Truman]

Just in the nick of time!

 

[Davy]

While your overall understanding of the End Days is good, you make a few errors and I need to call one or two of the significant ones out, when I sense the need.

Your misunderstanding of the passage you quote above must be addressed. You exchange different Greek words to arrive at your false counsel.

So before resorting to logic to prove my point from the scriptures (something I see you try to use with others and accuse them of issues for not being able to keep constancy between the teachings of the bible), I'll start with the irrefutable:

The Greek word for life in the verse you quote of Jesus is psuche, which is the word for soul. NOT sarx, which is the word for the physical flesh!

So for you to argue that when Jesus said "He who seeks to save his life (psuche), will lose it" is referring to a person's physical flesh (sarx) is utterly WRONG. This is NOT what Jesus said.

He was speaking about followers who attempt to live according to their souls, rather than by the Spirit. The soul must be crucified. Daily. If not, then the spirit life will die. If you are full of yourself, then your spiritual life will be nonexistent. IF you die utterly to the soul's assertions (the way Jesus did) then you will be full of God's life. Even though Jesus' soul was perfect, He crucified it always as He said here:

It's all about 'context' brother. And what is the 'context' where that Luke 17:33 passage appears? It's about those who seek to 'escape' the tribulation of those days.

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save (sozo-save or protect) his life (psuche-soul person) shall lose (apollumi-to perish) it; and whosoever shall lose his life (autos-third person, self) shall preserve (zoogoneo-rescue from death) it.
KJV

It's still about the flesh with those who seek to save their souls, because it's about escaping 'in' the flesh. That is the idea of the first one being 'taken'.

And in the second clause, it is definitely about losing one's life in the flesh in this world, FOR JESUS. And in that those will have preserved their souls, staying 'in' the field (world) doing His work to the day He comes, with some of us that are to be killed. So that's all I have to say about that.

 

[NewMusic]

It's all about 'context' brother. And what is the 'context' where that Luke 17:33 passage appears? It's about those who seek to 'escape' the tribulation of those days.

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save (sozo-save or protect) his life (psuche-soul person) shall lose (apollumi-to perish) it; and whosoever shall lose his life (autos-third person, self) shall preserve (zoogoneo-rescue from death) it.
KJV

It's still about the flesh with those who seek to save their souls, because it's about escaping 'in' the flesh. That is the idea of the first one being 'taken'.

And in the second clause, it is definitely about losing one's life in the flesh in this world, FOR JESUS. And in that those will have preserved their souls, staying 'in' the field (world) doing His work to the day He comes, with some of us that are to be killed. So that's all I have to say about that.

Whenever you attempt to come to an answer given context, you must then compare your conclusion with other passages in the bible to see if it holds up. So I supplied a couple and you chose to ignore their direct instruction and testimony: Jesus' teaching on the very subject matter, and Paul's testimony on escaping.

Since their teaching is 100% opposite your conclusion, what does that tell you?

 

[Davy]

Whenever you attempt to come to an answer given context, you must then compare your conclusion with other passages in the bible to see if it holds up.

Here's the other passage evidence of the matter Jesus was showing at the end of that Luke 17 chapter...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

After He had declared about the two with one taken and the other left, in final His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" about the first one taken. That above Matthew 24:28 version is a repeat of His answer to them, with one difference. The Matthew 24 version contains the Greek word for a 'carcase'.

The context is thus about those who seek to escape the tribulation vs. His faithful servants that He finds still working in the field (world who face persecution) until He comes. Don't you recall His metaphor about the goodman of the house giving 'meat in due season', and rewarded when Jesus comes finding he's still working?

So I supplied a couple and you chose to ignore their direct instruction and testimony: Jesus' teaching on the very subject matter, and Paul's testimony on escaping.

Since their teaching is 100% opposite your conclusion, what does that tell you?

I will go back and look at the rest of your post, but I didn't see anything relevant to the latter Luke 17 subject by Jesus of two in the field, the first one taken, and the other left.

 

[Davy]

He was speaking about followers who attempt to live according to their souls, rather than by the Spirit. The soul must be crucified. Daily. If not, then the spirit life will die. If you are full of yourself, then your spiritual life will be nonexistent. IF you die utterly to the soul's assertions (the way Jesus did) then you will be full of God's life. Even though Jesus' soul was perfect, He crucified it always as He said here:

Sorry, but I do not see any... room in those Luke 17:24-37 Scriptures that supports the above speculation you speak.

The context Jesus is giving there is about the very end of this world leading up to His future return. The main topic is... the day of His return, and whether one is ready for it, and what events to look for. One can live perfectly in Christ in their daily walk and still... not be prepared for that day of His return, IF... they follow men's leaven doctrines about the end, instead of listening to Him in His Word about it.

John 5:19 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise."

and

John 12:49 For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.

God cannot fill full containers. He can only fill empty containers. And this is why almost all christianity is carnal. They live according to their souls, rather than crucifying their self life and being led and governed by the Holy Spirit.

Those above John 12 Scriptures steer off topic from Christ's subject of the day of His coming in Luke 17.

But as for your opinion about "containers", I wonder if you truly understand about the flesh vs. Spirit, which is about two separate dimensions. Per Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 5, we also have another body not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Paul was pointing in present tense about our spirit body which is attached to our flesh body. When our flesh body dies, our spirit body is loosed. Even Solomon showed this in Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 about the "silver cord." Many brethren struggle with that when they should understand it.

So in all actuality, Christianity is NOT about carnality! It is about the Promise of God's Salvation of Eternal Life in the body of the future, what Apostle Paul declared as a "spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:42-53).

Examples of soul life:

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

Does that mean it's OK to lean on other... men's understanding? No, of course not. So be careful who you listen to, and that does include you and me also. We all are to confirm for ourselves in God's Word.

And so far brother, you have left the topic of Luke 17.

Now, to further address this issue using logic, because if what you said were the truth then we would have severe inconsistencies in the bible where we see men of God seeking to escape being captured and imprisoned with the known consequences thereof.

That is a completely unfair statement, treating what I said as if no one can be saved. We well know that there will be a Church still alive on earth on the day of Christ's return, otherwise the Scriptures that declare His gathering them would be a lie. However, there also are Scriptures about 'some' of His elect being delivered up to give a Testimony for Him against the beast, and that some of us will be killed in that (see Mark 13; the 5th Seal of Revelation 6). Those are not about the 'deceived' who think to be the first one 'taken' of Luke 17.

So you've two choices per Luke 17:33 in context WITH the 'taken' idea:
1. those who seek to be the first one 'taken' = the deceived as dead carcases wheresoever the birds of prey are gathered.
2. those who stay in the field = the faithful who wait for Christ's return, and are persecuted in that wait, some being killed for the Testimony for Christ.

In the below verse then, per that above context, which ones belong to the two phrases:

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

1. to the green phrase; the deceived who seek to escape, wanting to be the first one taken.
2. to the red phrase; the faithful who remain waiting on Christ, and are persecuted for His namesake.

Thusly, what I said is solidly based on the actual Scripture context of what Lord Jesus was teaching there.

 

[Davy]

Let's start with the Lord Jesus' own words:

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Matt 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Matt 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Matt 24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Matt 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Matt 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

That speaks for itself, does it not? Davy, this completely contradicts your own assertion about saving one's physical life.

Anyone... can play 'pick n' choose' with God's Word to try and push the idea they want, like you are doing there. Staying in the actual context of Scripture is difficult for most. Reason I say that is because you are excluding the following 'easy' Scripture with your assumption from the above...

Luke 21:16-19
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV

Does that Luke 21:16-19 Scripture seem confusing to what you propose? It should, because if understood by itself like you did with the Matthew 24:15-20 verses you quoted, without considering other Scripture like those brethren to be killed on the 5th Seal, it would be a contradiction. But it's not, because only those of Christ's elect who's names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world are going to make a 'stand' for Jesus during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-8). Some of those apparently are going to be killed for making that stand against the beast in our near future (Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 20:4). And I haven't even gotten to the subject of God's two witnesses that are to appear in Jerusalem during the coming tribulation to give a Testimony against the beast, and are killed at the end that Testimony with their dead bodies left laying in the street (Revelation 11).

All those Scriptures I referenced in the above are ON TOPIC with the Luke 17 context about those who seek to escape during the tribulation, vs. those of Christ's servants who stay to make a stand for Him, with some of them being killed, thus having preserved their souls in Christ. Even the Revelation 20:4 verse supports that context.

Then we also have Paul telling us about this occurrence:

2 Cor 11:32 At Damascus, the governor under King Aretas guarded the city of Damascus in order to seize me,
2 Cor 11:33 but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

Obviously, Paul sought escape to save his sarx (flesh, physical life) and did so!

I could write more, but if you reject what I have just written, which should be enough, then you too (as you have accused others of) will only be choosing to interpret passages in a manner to agree with your own thinking.
= = = = =

So everyone reading this, by all means try to escape torture and imprisonment. Most will not be able to given the resources of the governments. But you are exhorted by Jesus to try.

And then if you are captured, stand strong and give testimony of the Lord Jesus. Endure to the end.


One last bit of wisdom:

The days are turning very dark already and during the last 3½ years of the age, when men are taking the mark of the beast, no work can be done. It would be foolish and vain to share Christ with people who have taken the mark, unless you desire to go to jail and be tortured.

John 9:4 "We must work the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night comes when no one can work."

I'm sorry, but you can spoon-feed brethren around you that we all are not going to be harmed during the coming tribulation, and make them feel safe in this world, but that is NOT really what God's Word is showing about the coming "great tribulation" for the last generation that will see Christ's return. It is indeed about making a stand for Jesus against the beast, or seeking to escape by being the first one 'taken' in the field, which is exactly what the false Pre-trib Rapture theory supports, and of course is OPPOSITE of what God's Word teaches.

 

[NewMusic]

Here's the other passage evidence of the matter Jesus was showing at the end of that Luke 17 chapter...

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

After He had declared about the two with one taken and the other left, in final His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" about the first one taken. That above Matthew 24:28 version is a repeat of His answer to them, with one difference. The Matthew 24 version contains the Greek word for a 'carcase'.

The context is thus about those who seek to escape the tribulation vs. His faithful servants that He finds still working in the field (world who face persecution) until He comes. Don't you recall His metaphor about the goodman of the house giving 'meat in due season', and rewarded when Jesus comes finding he's still working?




I will go back and look at the rest of your post, but I didn't see anything relevant to the latter Luke 17 subject by Jesus of two in the field, the first one taken, and the other left.

I've lost interest. I don't know what you are rambling about now.

I addressed your conclusive remark that people who try to escape during the end days to save their lives from imprisonment and torture is not only common sense, but advised by Jesus. And there is an example of Paul doing that very thing.

How you cannot see this is beyond me.


Regarding the question the disciples ask Jesus regarding the 2 in the field and one is taken and one is left, His answer has absolutely NOTHING to do with this topic.

His answer was addressing where those taken, go. And it is a bad place. His answer was "Wherever the corpse (dead body) is, there the vultures (preying birds) will be. Indicating you do NOT want to be one of those who are taken.

That aspect has nothing to do with fleeing for your life during the horrible times that are coming.

 

[NewMusic]

I'm sorry, but you can spoon-feed brethren around you that we all are not going to be harmed during the coming tribulation, and make them feel safe in this world, but that is NOT really what God's Word is showing about the coming "great tribulation" for the last generation that will see Christ's return. It is indeed about making a stand for Jesus against the beast, or seeking to escape by being the first one 'taken' in the field, which is exactly what the false Pre-trib Rapture theory supports, and of course is OPPOSITE of what God's Word teaches.

I'm incensed over these words of yours! If you were here in front of me, I would shake you.

I never said anything resembling these words, you #$%.

Go back and read the last few lines under the equal signs on my post #26!

I said that more than likely, everybody is going to get captured due to the resources of the government, and then they need to stand firm in Christ, you jerk.

Do you also tell people to take the poison drug jab and allow themselves to be filled with harmful crap to comply with the devil's system? DO you tell people to vote democrat because they should just embrace all evils at all times, so they can be in agreement with your evil counsel? They might as well vote for evil laws and not try to do anything to establish good at all, since according to your perverse counsel, people should just lay down now at accept death and torture.

You are bad company. And need a good whooping to knock some sense into you.

But you will get one! You take your own advice and don't flee, like Jesus told people to do. You go ahead and "disobey" Jesus. You probably tell people to not prosecute crimes in court, since that would be "trying to save their flesh". Idiotic.

 

[Davy]

I've lost interest. I don't know what you are rambling about now.

I'm staying strict with the Scripture topic in Luke 17, even with backing up with other Scriptures, and you say I'm rambling??? You are now bearing false witness.

I addressed your conclusive remark that people who try to escape during the end days to save their lives from imprisonment and torture is not only common sense, but advised by Jesus. And there is an example of Paul doing that very thing.

How you cannot see this is beyond me.

But you fail... to address those like on the 5th Seal of Revelation 6 that are KILLED for their Testimony, and also those I showed in the Luke 21:16 Scripture that are put to death.

How you cannot see THAT... is beyond me.

Regarding the question the disciples ask Jesus regarding the 2 in the field and one is taken and one is left, His answer has absolutely NOTHING to do with this topic.

What??!#%^!?

The idea of those who seek to escape wanting to be the first one 'taken' vs. those who don't and are persecuted, is exactly... what the Luke 17 topic is about.

You have gone into denial of the Luke 17 Scripture. I'm starting to think that you are on the false Pre-trib Rapture theory from men.

His answer was addressing where those taken, go. And it is a bad place. His answer was "Wherever the corpse (dead body) is, there the vultures (preying birds) will be. Indicating you do NOT want to be one of those who are taken.

That's right, which those first ones taken symbolizes what happening to their souls? They become as dead carcases! That's the metaphor, and it is in 'context' with what He also said in the Luke 17:33 verse. You simply show you don't understand the difference between salvation of one's soul-spirit vs. salvation of one's flesh, even with your 'Christianity is mostly carnal' idea, which is not Biblical.

That aspect has nothing to do with fleeing for your life during the horrible times that are coming.

Yeah it does, just not 'how' you are trying to apply it based on a 'carnal thinking'. Jesus is giving a metaphor with that idea of the two in the field, one taken and the other left. He even gave you examples of it with the time of the flood destruction of Noah's day, and the destruction of the wicked in the days of Lot. And you can look in Zechariah 14 for a more literal description of that coming "sudden destruction" on that day which Apostle Paul also mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5.

Ever heard of the "Fly Away" doctrine? That's another name for the false Pre-trib Rapture theory of men that started being preached in Christian Churches in 1830's Great Britain. Don't tell me that's not about the idea of escaping the coming "great tribulation". Again, I think you may be on that false doctrine by what you've said against the clear presentation I've given from Scripture.

 

[Davy]

I'm incensed over these words of yours! If you were here in front of me, I would shake you.

I'm ex-military, Vietnam veteran, so I wouldn't brag about shaking to someone like me.

I never said anything resembling these words, you #$%.

Go back and read the last few lines under the equal signs on my post #26!

I said that more than likely, everybody is going to get captured due to the resources of the government, and then they need to stand firm in Christ, you jerk.

Yeah, but you LEFT OUT THE TOPIC of that some of us are going to be KILLED...

Matt 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
KJV

Torture and imprisonment is one thing, but being killed for Christ is another, and that is the point you failed to address from the Scripture evidence I posted. And here's another Scripture proof for the end...

The following Lord Jesus gave as Message to the Church at Smyrna, but it still applies for His elect all the way up to His future return...

Rev 2:10
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
KJV

The rest of your post is just mouthing hot air. Nor do you realize the Vet you're talking to.

 

[Truman]

You guys are funny! Lol How's it shaking, Davy?
I like you, Davy...even before I found out you're a trained killer! Lol

 

[Davy]

You guys are funny! Lol How's it shaking, Davy?

Still got my Hula-Hoop!

 

[Truman]

Still got my Hula-Hoop!

Lol!

 

[NewMusic]

I'm ex-military, Vietnam veteran, so I wouldn't brag about shaking to someone like me.

So in addition to all your other sins against me, you're also a hypocrite. You advise people to not save their hides and to disobey Jesus' direct command to flee, but you fought in the military to save your own hide (flesh). That is the very definition of hypocrisy.

Yeah, but you LEFT OUT THE TOPIC of that some of us are going to be KILLED...

So now you're going to attack me on things I have not said? I also did not speak about oranges and bananas. You want to make something of that, too?

You are truly a messed up individual.


FWIW, There's not a soul on this site who, after having read any of my writings, would think that I did not know the saints are going to be murdered, tortured, imprisoned, etc. Not one.

But you, having lost the argument by my showing direct contradiction of your false teaching by Jesus' own words, resort to more stupidity and foolery.