How is fighting in the military saving your own hide, perhaps you need to re think that comment. Many of us experience peace in our countries because of people serving in the military and actually giving up their lives for others.
Understanding The Great Trib
- Thread starter Davy
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@Davy @NewMusic , perhaps it might be a good idea to take a step back and respond rather than react to what each other is saying.
We all have differing views but it doesn’t mean we should be insulting one another.
Some of the comments in this conversation between you both have become personal attacks… and not helpful
This is friendly warning xx
We all have differing views but it doesn’t mean we should be insulting one another.
Some of the comments in this conversation between you both have become personal attacks… and not helpful
This is friendly warning xx
You're kidding, right? His saving people's hides (including his own) in the military goes against his teaching!
Jesus said to flee when we see the evils of the tribulation happening to save ourselves if possible, and this character is telling people to NOT flee because that would be saving their hides and then they would end up losing their souls. Contradicting Christ Jesus and spreading a devil's lesson.
He's all in favor of people lying down and surrendering everything and welcoming torture, rather than save their flesh or put up any resistance!
Why did he sign up for the military? He must also have hated the USA going to war against the Germans because that was an effort to save people's flesh. Hypocrisy through and through.
So Rita, if you had actually read the material before jumping in to give a lopsided evaluation to stand up for the hypocrite, I would not have to write these words.
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My point was the Evaluation that people who are in the military and go to war DO NOT do it to save their own lives , but others. Many Lose their lives for others in war….that’s my point. X
Whoo... hoo... hullabaloo... what a cry-baby! just because I showed how wrong you are with your leftist Liberal interpretation of the Luke 17:33 passage! Christ wants servants for these last days that are prepared to make a stand (spiritual stance in Him) against the coming beast and his one-world kingdom, and you are not prepared for it, nor are you preparing those brethren around you for it. So go on, do your Fly Away pre-trib rapture baloney, if you think to escape the tribulation. The reality is, the Church isn't going anywhere, but through... the "great tribulation" Lord Jesus warned His faithful about. So if we don't die before it comes, we certainly are to be prepared to give that Testimony for Jesus, even though some... of us will be put to death for it!
Eph 6:11-13
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
KJV
Oh yeah, I should have reported it, but he threatened me in his post #35, personally with violence! And I didn't push him on after that, but only mentioned how I'm not afraid of his threats.
Some of the wildest stories I've ever heard! This guy loves to make stuff up!
Just shows how whacko those ideas are. I volunteered to serve my country (USA), and have done so for over 42 years. I am not a Leftist Liberal who likes to riot in the streets and run from making a stand for my country, nor for Christ. And that is what Jesus is looking for at the end, for Christian soldiers prepared to make a spiritual stand, giving His Testimony against the beast during the coming tribulation. Run? "Retreat h... , I just got here."
So, back to the original Topic of this thread, understanding what the coming "great tribulation" is going to be about.
The following Scripture Lord Jesus gave as Signs for the end of this world. They parallel the Seals of Revelation 6. One of those Seals is the 5th Seal which is about souls in heaven that were beheaded for the Word of The LORD and the Testimony they gave. They ask The LORD how long before He brings judgment upon the earth and revenges their blood. They are told to wait yet a little season (representing the great trib at the end), until their fellow servants should be killed as they were.
Matt 24:7-14
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
Those of us who remain faithful to Jesus Christ during this coming trib will be hated by all nations. Even in the traditional Christian West we are seeing this hatred against Christians forming up, but that hatred is not all from what many think, as it will include hatred from some of our own brethren who claim to believe on Jesus also, yet are deceived by Satan's host...
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
In the Mark 13 version of this by Christ, He gives more instruction about what to do if you're one of His to be delivered up, and He also shows a little more of that hatred toward His elect also coming from our own deceived brethren...
Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Right there, Lord Jesus is revealing that those of us to be delivered up are to give His Testimony by The Holy Spirit, and we are to allow The Holy Spirit to give us what to say in that hour. We aren't to think about what to say beforehand, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak.
This is what the real purpose for the cloven tongue of Pentecost is for. What Apostle Peter quoted from the Book of Joel about the cloven tongue on Pentecost day is actually about an end time event for the tribulation just prior to the coming of the "day of the Lord" (last day when Jesus comes). This is what Lord Jesus was talking about here for the end.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
This is the point I was talking about with even some of our own brethren that are deceived joining the world in hatred against those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to return. It will be because those will be deceived by the false Messiah who they will think is Lord Jesus having returned.
Death per Revelation 6 is one of the names of the rider on a pale horse in the 4th Seal. That proper name "Death" is another title for Satan himself. So to be delivered up to 'death' per this, along with this idea Jesus gave about being delivered up to give a Testimony, is about even some of our own loved ones who are deceived will deliver us up to the devil to give an account for not bowing. How's that?
The time of "great tribulation" will begin when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup in Jerusalem in a new temple. The "man of sin" will proclaim himself as God, and Jesus showed he will do great signs and wonders, and miracles, and that false working will be so... deceptive, that IF possible, it would fool even His very elect. Fool them how? Fool them into believing that false one is Lord Jesus having come!
This is why the coming tribulation will be a time on earth never the likes before. It's because the devil is who going to be that "man of sin" in Jerusalem, playing God. Apostle Paul revealed a lot about him in 2 Thessalonians 2, showing that false one will exalt himself over all that is worshiped, or that is called God. That means deceiving ALL religions on earth, INCLUDING many Christian brethren who listen to the crept in unawares false leaven doctrines that will lead them to think that coming false one is The Messiah.
This is why Lord Jesus gave us the Signs of the end leading up to His return. It's so we would not be deceived about these coming events The Father is bringing upon the earth just prior to His Son's return. Yet like Lord Jesus showed above, brother shall betray brother, the father the son, children will rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
This recalls to memory the Nazi youth turning in their own people to Hitler in Nazi Germany; also George Orwell's book 1984 about Big Brother training the youth in military style to turn in adults they caught not in compliance. How could that apply to this? Since the coming false Messiah is going to be so deceptive in fooling the whole world into thinking he is The Messiah having come, and some of our deceived brethren will believe it, they will wonder why we refuse to bow in worship to him. Truly, if that first one coming was indeed our Lord Jesus, they'd be correct in wondering why we would refuse to bow to Him. But that first one coming doing great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men, won't be our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus returns after that false one is revealed, per Apostle Paul (2 Thess.2).
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
That reveals not all of us are going to be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus. That is why that is not a contradiction from what Lord Jesus said in the Matthew 24:9 verse that some of those delivered up would be killed.
The following Scripture Lord Jesus gave as Signs for the end of this world. They parallel the Seals of Revelation 6. One of those Seals is the 5th Seal which is about souls in heaven that were beheaded for the Word of The LORD and the Testimony they gave. They ask The LORD how long before He brings judgment upon the earth and revenges their blood. They are told to wait yet a little season (representing the great trib at the end), until their fellow servants should be killed as they were.
Matt 24:7-14
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
Those of us who remain faithful to Jesus Christ during this coming trib will be hated by all nations. Even in the traditional Christian West we are seeing this hatred against Christians forming up, but that hatred is not all from what many think, as it will include hatred from some of our own brethren who claim to believe on Jesus also, yet are deceived by Satan's host...
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
In the Mark 13 version of this by Christ, He gives more instruction about what to do if you're one of His to be delivered up, and He also shows a little more of that hatred toward His elect also coming from our own deceived brethren...
Mark 13:9-13
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Right there, Lord Jesus is revealing that those of us to be delivered up are to give His Testimony by The Holy Spirit, and we are to allow The Holy Spirit to give us what to say in that hour. We aren't to think about what to say beforehand, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak.
This is what the real purpose for the cloven tongue of Pentecost is for. What Apostle Peter quoted from the Book of Joel about the cloven tongue on Pentecost day is actually about an end time event for the tribulation just prior to the coming of the "day of the Lord" (last day when Jesus comes). This is what Lord Jesus was talking about here for the end.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
This is the point I was talking about with even some of our own brethren that are deceived joining the world in hatred against those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to return. It will be because those will be deceived by the false Messiah who they will think is Lord Jesus having returned.
Death per Revelation 6 is one of the names of the rider on a pale horse in the 4th Seal. That proper name "Death" is another title for Satan himself. So to be delivered up to 'death' per this, along with this idea Jesus gave about being delivered up to give a Testimony, is about even some of our own loved ones who are deceived will deliver us up to the devil to give an account for not bowing. How's that?
The time of "great tribulation" will begin when the "abomination of desolation" idol is setup in Jerusalem in a new temple. The "man of sin" will proclaim himself as God, and Jesus showed he will do great signs and wonders, and miracles, and that false working will be so... deceptive, that IF possible, it would fool even His very elect. Fool them how? Fool them into believing that false one is Lord Jesus having come!
This is why the coming tribulation will be a time on earth never the likes before. It's because the devil is who going to be that "man of sin" in Jerusalem, playing God. Apostle Paul revealed a lot about him in 2 Thessalonians 2, showing that false one will exalt himself over all that is worshiped, or that is called God. That means deceiving ALL religions on earth, INCLUDING many Christian brethren who listen to the crept in unawares false leaven doctrines that will lead them to think that coming false one is The Messiah.
This is why Lord Jesus gave us the Signs of the end leading up to His return. It's so we would not be deceived about these coming events The Father is bringing upon the earth just prior to His Son's return. Yet like Lord Jesus showed above, brother shall betray brother, the father the son, children will rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
This recalls to memory the Nazi youth turning in their own people to Hitler in Nazi Germany; also George Orwell's book 1984 about Big Brother training the youth in military style to turn in adults they caught not in compliance. How could that apply to this? Since the coming false Messiah is going to be so deceptive in fooling the whole world into thinking he is The Messiah having come, and some of our deceived brethren will believe it, they will wonder why we refuse to bow in worship to him. Truly, if that first one coming was indeed our Lord Jesus, they'd be correct in wondering why we would refuse to bow to Him. But that first one coming doing great signs and wonders, raining fire down from heaven in the sight of men, won't be our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus returns after that false one is revealed, per Apostle Paul (2 Thess.2).
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV
That reveals not all of us are going to be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus. That is why that is not a contradiction from what Lord Jesus said in the Matthew 24:9 verse that some of those delivered up would be killed.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do you accept the fig tree is the return of the Nation of Israel?
Why is that point last?
According to you, Israel becomes a nation after the Second Coming.
Matthew 24:15-20. The last 42 months with the mark of the beast.
Matthew 24:21-28. The GT.
Matthew 24:29-31. The Second Coming.
Matthew 24:32-34. Israel becomes a Nation.
So that is the order you think fits, except Israel is already a nation. It happened first.
So now you just arbitrarily pick and choose your own order of events.
All I pointed out is that Jesus stated the end.
14: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
Then Jesus put the events in the reverse order starting with the last 42 months and ending with Israel becoming a nation.
Either Jesus gave us the order as it would be, or Jesus scrambled the events and the reader can choose their own path of what will happen. Or one can read the book of Revelation.
It's the fulfillment of the Jeremiah 24 prophecy God gave about Judah, and another people among them, which is not the final restoration of God's Israel, because the ten tribes did not return in 1948. The ten tribes are still scattered among the Gentiles, but God said He will gather them (the "stick of Joseph" along with the "stick of Judah", and make them one nation again restoring the old inheritances promised their fathers -- Ezekiel 37).
You are TRYING to put words in my mouth. Furthermore, you don't even know enough prophecy in the Old Testament prophets to realize that the restoration of Israel means ALL TWELVE TRIBES... and this...
Matt 19:28
28 And Jesus said unto them, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV
Thus your questions are actually kind of funny, because they show your Biblical illiteracy.
The Matthew 24:15 event of the AOD being setup is when the "great tribulation" starts. The "For then shall be great tribulation" phrase at the beginning of verse 21 is covering those previously mentioned events from verse 15 forward. We are shown in Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 11:31 that the ending of sacrifices and setting up of the AOD is in the 'middle' of the symbolic "one week" (7 years). Thus the AOD being setup starts the latter half 1260 day count.
Yes, that's when the "day of the Lord" happens, on the 'day' of Christ's return to gather His Church, the LAST DAY of this present world.
That is when Jesus will gather the house of Israel (ten tribes) and house of Judah (Jews) back together in the holy land, at His return. That is when His separating of His sheep and the goats happens too (Matthew 25). The nation of Israel setup today by U.N. Charter vote by the nations is only about the "house of Judah", and only a small remnant of the those at that. Today, the majority of even the house of Judah (Jews) is still... scattered among the nations like the ten tribes still are.
I knew that was where you were leading. It shows that you do not know your Bible when it comes to the restoration prophecies about God's Israel. It even shows you don't even have a clue about the 1 Kings 11 event when God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms! At that split, the TRUE Israel meant only the ten northern tribes which God scattered out of the land first, and TO THIS DAY, HAVE NEVER RETURNED TO THE HOLY LANDS.
You only showed your Biblical illiteracy, like I said.
Ever read Hal Lindsay's books, like The Late Great Planet Earth? What about Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series?
One of the main features in those works is about the "great tribulation" time that Lord Jesus foretold His Church about. Famines, earthquakes, wars, etc., are stressed as a sign that the tribulation has arrived! Problem is though, that's not really what God's Word teaches how the great tribulation will be like.
Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV
There's the nation rising against nation, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. Lord Jesus said that was the "beginning of sorrows", and in verse 6 that the "end is not yet" as long as wars and rumors of war are going on. Those things are supposed to be happened JUST PRIOR TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION START.
So all those books by Hal Lindsay and LaHaye about death and destruction during great tribulation are all for nought. Those things have already been happening today, and will be at their height just prior to the start of the great trib. But those things are NOT what the great trib are actually about.
What then marks the start of the great tribulation that Lord Jesus showed us?
Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV
When we see that "abomination of desolation" idol setup in the holy place of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, signaling the start of the pseudo-Christ proclaiming himself in place of God, and deceiving the whole world in worshiping him, THAT... signals the start of the great tribulation time of the 'end'.
The deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time according to Apostle Paul (1 Thessalonians 5). Chicken in every pot for the deceived, as they will believe that false one is indeed Messiah having come.
So who is the tribulation upon then? It is upon those who stand in Jesus Christ in that time, remaining faithful waiting for Jesus' return after those events. The whole world that will be deceived will hate us for not believing on that pseudo-Christ who will works great signs and miracles. There won't be any wars, because the pseudo-Christ will be in power over the whole earth for that GT time. The deceived will believe that God has truly come, and he will use peace to spiritually destroy the souls of many.
The abomination of desolation event in Matthew 24:15 is at the mid tribulation point. Followed by the day of the Lord in verse 29, and a mid trib rapture in verses 30 and 31.
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