Understanding the Olivet Discourse

[Keraz]

And the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are separate visions laying out this crescendo of judgment leading to Christ's Coming. They do not indicate that God's eschatological judgment takes place *throughout* the period of Antichrist's rule!

But they do.
For example the Fifth Trumpet lasts for five months. Revelation 9:5-6
All of the Trumpets and Bowls take time to be fulfilled. That time is told to us as half of the final 7 year period. Exactly 1260 days.

Only the Sixth Seal is a one day event, the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, that will set the scene for all that is prophesied, leading up to the glorious Return; whch is not in wrath, but in power and glory/ He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

 

[Randy Kluth]

But they do.
For example the Fifth Trumpet lasts for five months. Revelation 9:5-6
All of the Trumpets and Bowls take time to be fulfilled. That time is told to us as half of the final 7 year period. Exactly 1260 days.

Only the Sixth Seal is a one day event, the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, that will set the scene for all that is prophesied, leading up to the glorious Return; whch is not in wrath, but in power and glory/ He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

As I've always said, God's judgments take place *throughout the present age,* including the time of Antichrist's rule. Yes, there will be 5 months of a special kind of judgment. And I'm sure there will be other signs of God's displeasure with Antichristian wickedness.

My point is that eschatological wrath is more often depicted as the *Day* of Christ's return, or the end result of the war taking place at that time. Antichrist is defeated and men enter into eternal judgment. God's wrath is more often associated with eternal judgment, and deaths in the present age are looked at as God's wrath when they lead to that.

But when the last major war of the age culminates in the defeat of Antichrist's Army, and results in the deaths of those who follow him, this is the Day of God's Wrath that the book of Revelation is speaking of, I believe. This is *not* referring to the entire period in which Antichrist reigns.

 

[Keraz]

But when the last major war of the age culminates in the defeat of Antichrist's Army, and results in the deaths of those who follow him, this is the Day of God's Wrath that the book of Revelation is speaking of, I believe. This is *not* referring to the entire period in which Antichrist reigns.

Armageddon is hardly a war; more of a disposal operation. Revelation 19:15a The treading of the winepress.... is a past event, as Revelation 14:18-20 That happens before the Seven Bowls of Gods wrath, during the period that the Anti-Christ does have total world control. Revelation 13:5-8
The sequence of Revelation is; the Seals, the Trumpets and then the Bowls, culminating in Jesus Return. We are told to not mess with it.
Plainly, the fires five Seals are open now. The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, which will happen within one literal Day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Armageddon is hardly a war; more of a disposal operation. Revelation 19:15a The treading of the winepress.... is a past event, as Revelation 14:18-20 That happens before the Seven Bowls of Gods wrath, during the period that the Anti-Christ does have total world control. Revelation 13:5-8
The sequence of Revelation is; the Seals, the Trumpets and then the Bowls, culminating in Jesus Return. We are told to not mess with it.
Plainly, the fires five Seals are open now. The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, which will happen within one literal Day.

We are told not to mess with what the Revelation *says.* It doesn't say the sequence is to be interpreted chronologically, and that particular chronology should not be messed with!

In fact, if we are not told that the sequence reflects a chronology, it would be *adding* to the Revelation to insist that it is a chronology! So perhaps you should not be inserting the idea that each successive vision is chronological?

 

[n2thelight]

I've spent many years on this, and now that I feel I finally am at peace with it, nobody believes me! My views conform to historic beliefs, and is not my personal brain child. We are not to stand out in a crowd, but to glorify Christ. So this isn't an effort at grandstanding. I just want to help those who are frustrated, as I used to be, and give them the benefit of my experiences.

The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People and on the 70 AD event, in which the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman Army. Jesus warned his Disciples to flee when they saw the "vultures gather." When the pagan Army "stood in the holy place," it was time to pack up quickly and run. If they waited too long, they would have to leave all their things behind!

Against this backdrop the Disciples asked Jesus about his 2nd Coming. When would the Kingdom come? If the Jewish temple is to be destroyed, how can the Jewish Hope be fulfilled? How can Israel be regathered?

Jesus' answer was that times and seasons were the domain of God, but that immediate repentance and a turn to righteousness is the answer in all generations. In his particular generation, the Jewish People had fallen away, and would be destroyed in that generation. The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD would lead to a "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, the "Jewish Diaspora," that would last until the end of the age when he would finally Return.

Can't agree as that discourse gives you the exact overlay of Revelations,so to say it's basically for the Jew's is like telling me Revelations has no meaning for me,a non Jew.

 

[n2thelight]

AD 70 was a type for those to whom the end would come.It has yet to happen.At the return of Christ it's gonna be nothing left.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Can't agree as that discourse gives you the exact overlay of Revelations,so to say it's basically for the Jew's is like telling me Revelations has no meaning for me,a non Jew.

I don't, of course, have any problem with you disagreeing. But the basis of your disagreement reflects bias--not reasoned thought. To say a passage doesn't mean something because it has to relate to another passage is not how exegesis is done.

And the absurdity of your argument can easily be seen if I use a similar argument here. Let me claim that because the OT Law had only to do with the Hebrews that it does not have any application for Christians today. Does that make sense? Of course not. What God gave to the Jewish People provided the very backdrop for presentation of the international Gospel to others.

The Olivet Discourse obviously took place during the earthly ministry of Jesus, when Israel was stilll under the Law and when only Israel was the Chosen People. And you say that because he directed this Discourse at Jewish believers that it has no application for non-Jewish believers? Absurd!

I don't mind you disagreeing with me. But please try to do so without bias.

 

[Keraz]

We are told not to mess with what the Revelation *says.* It doesn't say the sequence is to be interpreted chronologically, and that particular chronology should not be messed with!

In fact, if we are not told that the sequence reflects a chronology, it would be *adding* to the Revelation to insist that it is a chronology! So perhaps you should not be inserting the idea that each successive vision is chronological?

As Isaiah 28:10 tells us: Prophecy is a little here, a little there......
But Revelation is a revelation of the correct sequence of events. Albeit with flashbacks and more details interspersed.
Proved by how Revelation says; After that....then I saw....etc. That the Seals, Trumpets and the Bowls are a chronological sequence is obvious and it is an addition of, or alteration to that Book, to shuffle them.

 

[Waiting on him]

I've spent many years on this, and now that I feel I finally am at peace with it, nobody believes me! My views conform to historic beliefs, and is not my personal brain child. We are not to stand out in a crowd, but to glorify Christ. So this isn't an effort at grandstanding. I just want to help those who are frustrated, as I used to be, and give them the benefit of my experiences.

The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People and on the 70 AD event, in which the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman Army. Jesus warned his Disciples to flee when they saw the "vultures gather." When the pagan Army "stood in the holy place," it was time to pack up quickly and run. If they waited too long, they would have to leave all their things behind!

Against this backdrop the Disciples asked Jesus about his 2nd Coming. When would the Kingdom come? If the Jewish temple is to be destroyed, how can the Jewish Hope be fulfilled? How can Israel be regathered?

Jesus' answer was that times and seasons were the domain of God, but that immediate repentance and a turn to righteousness is the answer in all generations. In his particular generation, the Jewish People had fallen away, and would be destroyed in that generation. The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD would lead to a "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, the "Jewish Diaspora," that would last until the end of the age when he would finally Return.

The first words out of John s mouth REPENT!

 

[Waiting on him]

Armageddon is hardly a war; more of a disposal operation. Revelation 19:15a The treading of the winepress.... is a past event, as Revelation 14:18-20 That happens before the Seven Bowls of Gods wrath, during the period that the Anti-Christ does have total world control. Revelation 13:5-8
The sequence of Revelation is; the Seals, the Trumpets and then the Bowls, culminating in Jesus Return. We are told to not mess with it.
Plainly, the fires five Seals are open now. The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, which will happen within one literal Day.

Lol, grapes grow on a vine and so does anyone who abides in Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

As Isaiah 28:10 tells us: Prophecy is a little here, a little there......
But Revelation is a revelation of the correct sequence of events. Albeit with flashbacks and more details interspersed.
Proved by how Revelation says; After that....then I saw....etc. That the Seals, Trumpets and the Bowls are a chronological sequence is obvious and it is an addition of, or alteration to that Book, to shuffle them.

No, that's not true. When we see "after this I saw," all John is saying is that he saw consecutive *visions*--not that the series of visions were in chronological order. These are very different things.

Obviously, John's visions would take place sequentially. How can they not? And they of course would be related in that fashion, as a narrative would. First I saw this, and then that. This time sequence does *not* indicate a chronological order of the things they *represent!*

I could see a series of 3 visions and relate them in the chronological sequence in which I saw them, the 1st presenting the future, the 2nd presenting the present, and the 3rd presenting the past. The visions would be given in the chronological order in which I saw them, but the progression in which the visions actually take place have their own non-chronological sequence, actually the opposite of what we normally see in time.

It makes no difference if I, the narrator, say: 1st I saw the future. Then, I saw the present. And then, I saw the past. The chronological sequence of time in which I saw the visions is different than the chronology of the visions themselves. The chronology of the visions themselves take place from future to past. This is *not* the chronology in which I saw them and relay them!

In the case of the visions in Revelation, no chronology is given from one vision to another--just a narrative progression. You are actually *adding to the Revelation* by inserting the idea that these visions present, one after another, chronological sequence. No such suggestion is made!

The only chronological order is the order in which John saw the visions. And that was *his own time sequence,* and not a supposed chronological sequence one vision after another.

 

[Waiting on him]

No, that's not true. When we see "after this I saw," all John is saying is that he saw consecutive *visions*--not that the series of visions were in chronological order. These are very different things.

Obviously, John's visions would take place sequentially. How can they not? And they of course would be related in that fashion, as a narrative would. First I saw this, and then that. This time sequence does *not* indicate a chronological order of the things they *represent!*

I could see a series of 3 visions and relate them in the chronological sequence in which I saw them, the 1st presenting the future, the 2nd presenting the present, and the 3rd presenting the past. The visions would be given in the chronological order in which I saw them, but the progression in which the visions actually take place have their own non-chronological sequence, actually the opposite of what we normally see in time.

It makes no difference if I, the narrator, say: 1st I saw the future. Then, I saw the present. And then, I saw the past. The chronological sequence of time in which I saw the visions is different than the chronology of the visions themselves. The chronology of the visions themselves take place from future to past. This is *not* the chronology in which I saw them and relay them!

In the case of the visions in Revelation, no chronology is given from one vision to another--just a narrative progression. You are actually *adding to the Revelation* by inserting the idea that these visions present, one after another, chronological sequence. No such suggestion is made!

The only chronological order is the order in which John saw the visions. And that was *his own time sequence,* and not a supposed chronological sequence one vision after another.

This in my opinion happened at Calvary

Revelation 11:19 KJV
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This in my opinion happened at Calvary

Revelation 11:19 KJV
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I don't, but I see your point. Certainly the associated paraphenalia, or embellishments, of lightnings and thunderings serve as symbolic props in this vision, rather than literal phenomenon taking place in real time. And they do draw us back to the Cross, where these things actually happened.

Please note that these are *visions,* and were given symbolic background in order to demonstrate their heavenly significance or judgmental character. Also note how many of the symbols used in Revelation point to the characteristic imagery of Christ's 2nd Coming, as depicted elsewhere in the Scriptures. We are not to think that every time a judgment strikes the last trumpet blows again!

But our attention is being drawn to certain things, particularly the 2nd Coming and its related eternal judgment. And I do think it's interesting that you draw attention back to Calvary, as well. I do find that significant.

I think the vision actually looks forward in time. But yes, these visions do not proceed in time as if vision A is at 1:00 and vision B is at 2:00, etc. In that case, we would have Christ returning at least 3 or 4 times, in Rev 6, Rev 11, Rev 14, and Rev 19.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don't, but I see your point. Certainly the associated paraphenalia, or embellishments, of lightnings and thunderings serve as symbolic props in this vision, rather than literal phenomenon taking place in real time. And they do draw us back to the Cross, where these things actually happened.

Please note that these are *visions,* and were given symbolic background in order to demonstrate their heavenly significance or judgmental character. Also note how many of the symbols used in Revelation point to the characteristic imagery of Christ's 2nd Coming, as depicted elsewhere in the Scriptures. We are not to think that every time a judgment strikes the last trumpet blows again!

But our attention is being drawn to certain things, particularly the 2nd Coming and its related eternal judgment. And I do think it's interesting that you draw attention back to Calvary, as well. I do find that significant.

I think the vision actually looks forward in time. But yes, these visions do not proceed in time as if vision A is at 1:00 and vision B is at 2:00, etc. In that case, we would have Christ returning at least 3 or 4 times, in Rev 6, Rev 11, Rev 14, and Rev 19.

Or it could be He returns upon belief?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Or it could be He returns upon belief?

Nah, that would give us way more power than we deserve!

 

[Waiting on him]

Proceeding the OD Jesus observed the religious system devour a widows house. Immediately after He walks outside and walks to the mt of olives where he tells his disciples it's all coming down, all the grand buildings they are marveling at, He also makes known to them what they will experience prior to and as these things are happening.
Then we read the epistles and see that He was right.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Proceeding the OD Jesus observed the religious system devour a widows house. Immediately after He walks outside and walks to the mt of olives where he tells his disciples it's all coming down, all the grand buildings they are marveling at, He also makes known to them what they will experience prior to and as these things are happening.
Then we read the epistles and see that He was right.

Are you referring to the widow's mite? I'm not sure her house was taken, in the text, but one has to wonder how a widow could be so neglected at that time? And Jesus did, in Matt 23, assault the religious leaders for their false religiosity.

That was indeed the whole lesson behind the Olivet Discourse, that the Jewish religion had become so corrupted that the covenant was about to be demonstrably rejected, and all hope would be relegated to Messiah alone.

Jesus did say that only with a return to faith in him would Israel be restored, namely at his 2nd Coming. I've had these debates within myself, as well: Must Israel come to Christ 1st, before he comes again to save them? Or, will Christ come to save them only after judgment?

My own conviction is that faith will only emerge among a Messianic remnant in Israel in these endtimes. They will call for Messiah's return to save the nation. But national salvation will indeed follow judgment upon the majority, so that when Christ returns he will have to rebuild the whole nation around the faith emerging within the majority of survivors.

 

[Waiting on him]

Are you referring to the widow's mite? I'm not sure her house was taken, in the text, but one has to wonder how a widow could be so neglected at that time? And Jesus did, in Matt 23, assault the religious leaders for their false religiosity.

That was indeed the whole lesson behind the Olivet Discourse, that the Jewish religion had become so corrupted that the covenant was about to be demonstrably rejected, and all hope would be relegated to Messiah alone.

Jesus did say that only with a return to faith in him would Israel be restored, namely at his 2nd Coming. I've had these debates within myself, as well: Must Israel come to Christ 1st, before he comes again to save them? Or, will Christ come to save them only after judgment?

My own conviction is that faith will only emerge among a Messianic remnant in Israel in these endtimes. They will call for Messiah's return to save the nation. But national salvation will indeed follow judgment upon the majority, so that when Christ returns he will have to rebuild the whole nation around the faith emerging within the majority of survivors.

He did save Israel many fled into the mts of Judea as a result of his Command.

As far as the widow goes, see what Jesus observed at the treasury that moment then back up about 6 verses in Mark and you'll see who the devourer is spoken of in Malachi

 

[Waiting on him]

Mark 12:38-40 KJV
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, [39] And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: [40] Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Immediately following Jesus is against the treasury.

She gave all her living out of her want, and they gave long prayers as a pretence or a show, too claim they could supply her need.

Their truth is the intent was too devour.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Mark 12:38-40 KJV
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, [39] And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: [40] Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Immediately following Jesus is against the treasury.

She gave all her living out of her want, and they gave long prayers as a pretence or a show, too claim they could supply her need.

Their truth is the intent was too devour.

Oops, you're right. I didn't look back far enough. Widows' houses were indeed "devoured." Thank you!