Understanding the Olivet Discourse

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
I don't, of course, have any problem with you disagreeing. But the basis of your disagreement reflects bias--not reasoned thought. To say a passage doesn't mean something because it has to relate to another passage is not how exegesis is done.

And the absurdity of your argument can easily be seen if I use a similar argument here. Let me claim that because the OT Law had only to do with the Hebrews that it does not have any application for Christians today. Does that make sense? Of course not. What God gave to the Jewish People provided the very backdrop for presentation of the international Gospel to others.

The Olivet Discourse obviously took place during the earthly ministry of Jesus, when Israel was stilll under the Law and when only Israel was the Chosen People. And you say that because he directed this Discourse at Jewish believers that it has no application for non-Jewish believers? Absurd!

I don't mind you disagreeing with me. But please try to do so without bias.

Do you not see the seals of Revelation in Matthew 24? No bias ,just the Word....

One of the most talked about subjects today is the end times and all the events that surround those times. There is no reason that we be anxious of these times, for Jesus told us to wait patiently on Him. In Mark 13 Jesus is going to give His disciples, and to us the seven seals, and these seals are also recorded in the Book of Revelation. They are the seals that mark the end of this earth age of the flesh. The very word "Revelation" means "to reveal", to make known.

Christ would not His elect in the dark concerning the simplicity of His teaching, so Jesus is asked by three of His apostles here, as they are coming out of the Temple, when is the end of the world going to be. We know from Matthew 24:3, this is the actual wording of the question put to Jesus.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

It is important that we understand the word "world" as used in the Greek manuscripts, is "aion", and "age, or an age of time". In the Hebrew, " `olam", which denotes a limited, or even an extended period of time, such as the context of each occurrence may demand. So as such, this is talking about the end of our present world age which is characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Remember that the closing thought to the last chapter was the little widow that had enough faith to give all over her livelihood to God and put here trust in God for provision. So don't forget that the famine in the end times is not for the bread that you eat, but for the knowledge and truth of God's Word.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

There will be a famine coming very shortly for the knowledge, and for the hearing of the Word of God.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Again ad 70 was just a type,and that's just a fraction of what will happen when Christ feet hit the ground at the 7th trump...
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,742
2,419
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you not see the seals of Revelation in Matthew 24? No bias ,just the Word....

Exposition of a passage is done primarily in reference to the target passage itself. To depend upon the interpretation of other passages, particularly symbolic passages, tends to obscure what the target passage is itself saying, and subjects the exposition to interpretive bias.

We should be able to say, "I haven't read the seals of Revelation yet," and still understand what the Olivet Discourse means, if we have sufficient background on the issues Jesus was addressing. To bring in a person's presumed interpretation of the 7 seals could be bringing in a wrong interpretation, and could completely obscure what Jesus was saying in the Olivet Discourse.

One of the most talked about subjects today is the end times and all the events that surround those times. There is no reason that we be anxious of these times, for Jesus told us to wait patiently on Him. In Mark 13 Jesus is going to give His disciples, and to us the seven seals, and these seals are also recorded in the Book of Revelation. They are the seals that mark the end of this earth age of the flesh. The very word "Revelation" means "to reveal", to make known.

Christ would not His elect in the dark concerning the simplicity of His teaching, so Jesus is asked by three of His apostles here, as they are coming out of the Temple, when is the end of the world going to be. We know from Matthew 24:3, this is the actual wording of the question put to Jesus.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

It is important that we understand the word "world" as used in the Greek manuscripts, is "aion", and "age, or an age of time". In the Hebrew, " `olam", which denotes a limited, or even an extended period of time, such as the context of each occurrence may demand. So as such, this is talking about the end of our present world age which is characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Remember that the closing thought to the last chapter was the little widow that had enough faith to give all over her livelihood to God and put here trust in God for provision. So don't forget that the famine in the end times is not for the bread that you eat, but for the knowledge and truth of God's Word.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

There will be a famine coming very shortly for the knowledge, and for the hearing of the Word of God.

Matt 24.3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Mark 13.3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

Luke 21.7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

Each of these accounts were the same Discourse Jesus gave on the Mt. of Olives. They were somewhat paraphrased but accurately presented the gist of what was said. In each case, the Disciples were asking Jesus what he meant about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, an apparent Roman siege against Jerusalem?

In all accounts, the question concerns when *the temple would be destroyed.* The ancillary question is secondary, and not what prompted the interest. The Disciples wanted to know about the 2nd Coming, or the Coming of the Messianic Kingdom, because that reality seemed threatened by Jesus' prophecy that the temple would be destroyed. And they, of course, assumed that Jesus meant this to happen in their own lifetimes. They just wanted to know when and how--how can this happen if you, the Messiah, have come to save Israel from the Romans?

Modern prophecy enthusiasts today read this completely different, and wrongly, I believe. They are looking for signs of the 2nd Coming so that they can piece together evidence that God is moving in a particular direction, fulfilling events one after another. They see it as their duty to identify these events for others so that they can see the power of God in controlling history, and thus the need to be forewarned of judgment.

I'm not completely against such ideas, but I'm more interested in interpreting the Discourse properly. This is primarily about when the destruction of the temple would take place. And Jesus answered quite plainly--it would be in "this generation," ie in the generation of his apostles.

And this event would not only perpetuate the current resistance of Israel to Christianity, but it would also perpetuate the judgment of God coming against Israel in that generation. The fall of Jerusalem would lead to an age-long Jewish Diaspora, during which time Christians would be rejected not only by Jews but also by Gentiles, among whom the Jews would all be scattered.

This was a warning to Christians that the Kingdom would not come imminently, even though the destruction of Jerusalem would indeed be imminent. The true sign of the coming of the Kingdom would be judgment emerging at Christ's return. But the sign of the judgment of Jerusalem would be Roman "vultures" drawing near and surrounding the walls of Jerusalem. This would be the "Abomination of Desolation," that they should flee from!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,520
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay, let me rephrase then. Some people would indeed identify my view as Preterism. Others, like myself, do not wish to be identified with Preterism, because Preterism often contains beliefs that I do not subscribe to, such as the Beast of Revelation was Nero or the Roman Empire in the time of John.

To then go on and call me a Preterist is just name-calling, isn't it? And I think that's rather immature of you, because we're trying to establish what we believe here--not name call?

If you want to discuss what I actually believe, let me know. If you think that just calling my view "Preterism" proves anything, it doesn't. I follow the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers. Are you going to call them "Preterists" too?

Those who live by the seminary categories continually try to label me in one of their categories and it doesn't work. I get blamed for believing a pre-trib rapture when I'm totally against that doctrine that began in 1830s Great Britain.

But I don't get all bent out of shape just because I get wrongly labeled as such! So suck it up.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,520
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Wailing Wall is just a big retaining wall for the plaza upon which the Mosques are built. Who knows where the temple actually was, but the retaining wall is not part of the temple, although you might call it part of the temple *complex.*

It's part of the old Western Wall erected during the time of Herod's expansion of the 2nd temple. Just the fact that there are still HUGE STONES atop one another at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today is EASY proof that Matthew 24:2-3 has not happened yet.

Anyone pushing the idea that Matthew 24:2 Scripture was fulfilled in 70 A.D. ought to feel truly silly once they realize those huge stones of the Western Wall are still standing there today. It can easily be proven stones are still atop one another there today.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,742
2,419
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's part of the old Western Wall erected during the time of Herod's expansion of the 2nd temple. Just the fact that there are still HUGE STONES atop one another at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today is EASY proof that Matthew 24:2-3 has not happened yet.

Anyone pushing the idea that Matthew 24:2 Scripture was fulfilled in 70 A.D. ought to feel truly silly once they realize those huge stones of the Western Wall are still standing there today. It can easily be proven stones are still atop one another there today.

False, Jesus said the temple would be demolished--every stone--in his own generation. That literally took place in 70 AD. The Romans took down every stone. The remaining vestige of the temple through the continuing presence of a retaining wall is *not* the continuing presence of the temple itself.

If you read the instructions on building the temple, you will not see a retaining wall. The temple could, to some, mean only the building housing the holy of holies and the holy place. To others, like yourself, it must mean the entire superstructure, including support structures.

But obviously, if the temple came down, stone by stone, it did not mean the foundation under it had to come down too. Nor did a retaining wall that helped to stabilize the plaza upon which the temple was constructed have to be destroyed to fulfill Jesus' prediction.

You claim this is foolish, and yet Christian scholars all through history have interpreted the 70 AD destruction of the temple to be the fulfillment of this specific prophecy. Even many of those who believe the Abomination of Desolation has a future fulfillment in Antichrist believe that Luke 21 refers to the 70 AD event. You should do some research on the historical interpretation of Luke 21 before you call my view "foolish."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keraz

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You claim this is foolish, and yet Christian scholars all through history have interpreted the 70 AD destruction of the temple to be the fulfillment of this specific prophecy.
And those same Christians scholars should have taken the time to carefully study the Olivet Discourse. Christ did indeed predict the destruction of Herod's Temple (or the second temple) in 70 AD.

AT THE SAME TIME he predicted that another temple would stand in Jerusalem before the Great Tribulation. The Abomination of Desolation would stand in the Holy Place of this future temple, and would trigger the Great Tribulation (which is totally unique and has not occurred as yet).

Preterists are simply delusional, and should be ignored. They twist Bible prophecy to fit into their preconceived ideas.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,742
2,419
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And those same Christians scholars should have taken the time to carefully study the Olivet Discourse. Christ did indeed predict the destruction of Herod's Temple (or the second temple) in 70 AD.

AT THE SAME TIME he predicted that another temple would stand in Jerusalem before the Great Tribulation. The Abomination of Desolation would stand in the Holy Place of this future temple, and would trigger the Great Tribulation (which is totally unique and has not occurred as yet).

Preterists are simply delusional, and should be ignored. They twist Bible prophecy to fit into their preconceived ideas.

Preterists have it correct that the destruction of the temple Jesus predicted in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD and in the Jewish Diaspora that followed. Often when I say this it is *completely ignored* that the *Jewish Diaspora* that followed was *part of this prophecy.* It was not just the fall of Jerusalem and the fall of the temple in 70 AD that was predicted.

Equally important was the age-long Jewish dispersion, which would end at the 2nd Coming of Christ, at the very end of the age. And yet, here you are claiming that *another temple* will have to be rebuilt, destroyed, and then what "Jewish Dispersion" is to follow then?

You see, a 2nd temple just doesn't work in this particular prophecy. It is not some kind of "dual prophecy" in which it applies at the same time to two separate prophecies! So when you call Preterists "delusional" you should at least give credit to the part they have right, which is the destruction of Herod's temple in 70 AD. Just my opinion.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,693
2,114
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's part of the old Western Wall erected during the time of Herod's expansion of the 2nd temple. Just the fact that there are still HUGE STONES atop one another at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem today is EASY proof that Matthew 24:2-3 has not happened yet.

Anyone pushing the idea that Matthew 24:2 Scripture was fulfilled in 70 A.D. ought to feel truly silly once they realize those huge stones of the Western Wall are still standing there today. It can easily be proven stones are still atop one another there today.
Was Jesus talking about the Temple Mount or the Temple Buildings? Where is the Temple building today?
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,520
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was Jesus talking about the Temple Mount or the Temple Buildings? Where is the Temple building today?

The Western Wall

"Western Wall, Hebrew Ha-Kotel Ha-Maʿaravi, also called Wailing Wall, in the Old City of Jerusalem, a place of prayer and pilgrimage sacred to the Jewish people. It is the only remains of the Second Temple of Jerusalem, held to be uniquely holy by the ancient Jews and destroyed by the Romans in 70 ce. The authenticity of the Western Wall has been confirmed by tradition, history, and archaeological research; the wall dates from about the 2nd century bce, though its upper sections were added at a later date." (from Encyclopaedia Britannica)
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,520
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Was Jesus talking about the Temple Mount or the Temple Buildings? Where is the Temple building today?

The future fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem with sacrifices. The Zechariah 12 chapter contains prophecy of Messiah coming to build the temple, and that is what today's orthodox Jews are waiting for. They say Messiah will build it when he comes.

Problem with that though is, that our Lord Jesus warned us of a false-Messiah that is to come first (Matthew 24:23-26). Apostle Paul warned about that too (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,520
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
False, Jesus said the temple would be demolished--every stone--in his own generation.

No, He did not say that would happen in their generation. You can't prove it either.

That literally took place in 70 AD. The Romans took down every stone. The remaining vestige of the temple through the continuing presence of a retaining wall is *not* the continuing presence of the temple itself.

Yeah, the Romans removed stones AFTER the temple complex burned down, because they fought the Jews over it, and the Romans couldn't get control of it. The Western Wall is part of the 2nd temple complex dating back to at least the 2nd century B.C.

If you read the instructions on building the temple, you will not see a retaining wall. The temple could, to some, mean only the building housing the holy of holies and the holy place. To others, like yourself, it must mean the entire superstructure, including support structures.

But obviously, if the temple came down, stone by stone, it did not mean the foundation under it had to come down too. Nor did a retaining wall that helped to stabilize the plaza upon which the temple was constructed have to be destroyed to fulfill Jesus' prediction.

Totally irrelevant, and nothing but dilly-dallying.

You claim this is foolish, and yet Christian scholars all through history have interpreted the 70 AD destruction of the temple to be the fulfillment of this specific prophecy. Even many of those who believe the Abomination of Desolation has a future fulfillment in Antichrist believe that Luke 21 refers to the 70 AD event. You should do some research on the historical interpretation of Luke 21 before you call my view "foolish."

Your claim is what is foolish, because the events Christ's Apostles linked to their question about the destruction involves the day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the end of this present world.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

KJV
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,693
2,114
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Western Wall

"Western Wall, Hebrew Ha-Kotel Ha-Maʿaravi, also called Wailing Wall, in the Old City of Jerusalem, a place of prayer and pilgrimage sacred to the Jewish people. It is the only remains of the Second Temple of Jerusalem, held to be uniquely holy by the ancient Jews and destroyed by the Romans in 70 ce. The authenticity of the Western Wall has been confirmed by tradition, history, and archaeological research; the wall dates from about the 2nd century bce, though its upper sections were added at a later date." (from Encyclopaedia Britannica)

That's interesting. Before I posted my question, I visited several mapping sites and I also have Google earth. From what I could see, what people call "the Western Wall" is actually the west-most retailing wall of the Temple Mount. It seems that Mt. Zion wasn't big enough to accommodate all the buildings Herod wanted to add to the site, so he increased the area of the site by adding retaining walls. This elevated a large area suitable for construction. The Western wall, isn't the west-most wall of the temple; the Western wall is the west-most wall of the elevated area we know as the "Temple Mount".

So my question was this, did Jesus prophesy about the Temple alone or the entire site?
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,693
2,114
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The future fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel REQUIRES a standing Jewish temple in Jerusalem with sacrifices. The Zechariah 12 chapter contains prophecy of Messiah coming to build the temple, and that is what today's orthodox Jews are waiting for. They say Messiah will build it when he comes.

Problem with that though is, that our Lord Jesus warned us of a false-Messiah that is to come first (Matthew 24:23-26). Apostle Paul warned about that too (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
Do you think Jesus was talking about Daniel 11:31? Wasn't that passage fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes?
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,742
2,419
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Western Wall

"Western Wall, Hebrew Ha-Kotel Ha-Maʿaravi, also called Wailing Wall, in the Old City of Jerusalem, a place of prayer and pilgrimage sacred to the Jewish people. It is the only remains of the Second Temple of Jerusalem, held to be uniquely holy by the ancient Jews and destroyed by the Romans in 70 ce. The authenticity of the Western Wall has been confirmed by tradition, history, and archaeological research; the wall dates from about the 2nd century bce, though its upper sections were added at a later date." (from Encyclopaedia Britannica)

This encyclopedia reference indicates something not related to what, biblically, the temple buildings were. It is referring, in context, to the temple *construction project,* which did, of course, include the foundation, or plaza, and the retaining walls. This is *not* to say that the retaining walls were part of the temple buildings themselves--they were support structures that remained as part of the original temple construction project. But they were not the temple itself, as indicated in God's instructions on how to build the Tabernacle.

You can claim this article says this or that, but you will never be able to prove that Jesus was wrong when he said "every stone will be removed." It was. And the original temple construction, though inclusive of a retaining wall, still did not include the retaining wall in the temple buildings themselves. It only remained of the *temple construction project.* And that's what these encyclopedia articles are saying. Simply consult what the *Bible says* the actual temple buildings were, which of course you have to do to assert your views.

I've actually been there, and know what I'm talking about. You don't actually have to visit the site to see what I'm talking about. You can see it virtually on the web.
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This encyclopedia reference indicates something not related to what, biblically, the temple buildings were. It is referring, in context, to the temple *construction project,* which did, of course, include the foundation, or plaza, and the retaining walls. This is *not* to say that the retaining walls were part of the temple buildings themselves--they were support structures that remained as part of the original temple construction project. But they were not the temple itself, as indicated in God's instructions on how to build the Tabernacle.

You can claim this article says this or that, but you will never be able to prove that Jesus was wrong when he said "every stone will be removed." It was. And the original temple construction, though inclusive of a retaining wall, still did not include the retaining wall in the temple buildings themselves. It only remained of the *temple construction project.* And that's what these encyclopedia articles are saying. Simply consult what the *Bible says* the actual temple buildings were, which of course you have to do to assert your views.

I've actually been there, and know what I'm talking about. You don't actually have to visit the site to see what I'm talking about. You can see it virtually on the web.
Amos 5:18,22 KJV
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord ! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. [22] Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them : neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
 

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 1:10 KJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John 21:23 KJV
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,742
2,419
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Amos 5:18,22 KJV
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord ! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light. [22] Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them : neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.

Yes, that's the whole reason the temple came down. Israel fell from grace, and could not offer acceptable offerings to God. At any rate, God had planned all along to complete redemption under the Law with the eternal redemption of His Son.

Today, offerings acceptable to God are ones made in the name of Jesus, and not offered at a temple in Jerusalem. That temple is long gone! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waiting on him

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, that's the whole reason the temple came down. Israel fell from grace, and could not offer acceptable offerings to God. At any rate, God had planned all along to complete redemption under the Law with the eternal redemption of His Son.

Today, offerings acceptable to God are ones made in the name of Jesus, and not offered at a temple in Jerusalem. That temple is long gone! :)
Many say refer to Daniel to understand revelation. I say refer to Jericho.
It's at the end of a progression of 7 trumpets the walls came down.