Unity of the faith - at what cost?

[St. SteVen]

I've had some good interactions with Catholics on other boards. As they explained it, they have "official" interpretations of scripture; "private interpretations" are highly discouraged. I once accepted a challenge to review some online document summarizing central Catholic doctrine. I burned out around article 1425 or so, but I was somewhat surprised to note they cited scripture on every article - although the hermeneutical principles used seemed designed to maximize the authority of the Church hierarchy. (But I'm not a cynical man...) Unity through control of scriptural interpretation.

Anyway, Sola Scriptura cannot bring the promised unity because we all interpret scripture through the lenses of Tradition, Reason, and Experience (to misappropriate a concept from my own denomination's tradition), and those three corners of the Quadrilateral are peculiar to every individual. On the contrary, it could be argued from history that the Reformation was the primary cause of the current disunity of Christ's church.

Great post, thanks.

This is why I think the unity of the faith is NOT doctrinal unity but rather interpersonal unity.
Love unites people regardless of the fine-points of doctrine.

I even see misquotes of OT passages used to make points in the NT.
One could argue that these points are dead wrong because they misuse the scriptures.
Fortunately, no one does. (that I am aware of)

 

[St. SteVen]

Then can the saying come to pass, how good and pleasant it is, when we dwell in unity!

Do you anticipate this happening any time soon?

 

[St. SteVen]

There is a people of more than 8 millions on earth that have embraced one truth: Jehovah's witnesses.
How we did it? Because the people that Jesus really owns is here.

It is impossible to guide persons who think they don't need to learn anything because they think they are anointed with the Holy Spirit. All people out there says that, so they don't want to learn anything ... How there will be unity among people with that attitude?

We are very diferent, and that's why ... We do not think we are all anointed and capable of interpreting the Bible as most of people in Christendom think they are. We follow some lead, of a few anointed ones who have proved they really have the guide of God. We don't want their position, we don't need to interpret the Scriptures by ourselves or invent doctrines that we think are truth, etc ... We follow our guides.

Most people out there want to lead others and tell them what to believe and what to do ... They don't want to follow anyone because they say they follow Jesus ... All of them say the same, and that is funny: how all of them follow Jesus and they are all of them teaching and doing so many contradictory things? Jesus don't lead where there is caos. Whoever think that Jesus is there where contradictions are, is deceiving himself.

Thanks.
That's an excellent answer to the topic question... - at what cost?
A sobering read for anyone who thinks that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.
These ARE the droids we were looking for.

 

[Nancy]

My own list of non-negotiables is pretty short too. I guess that means we would accept as brothers and sisters in Christ many who would not accept us.

I suppose, but it isn't easy...!

 

[Keturah]

Do you anticipate this happening any time soon?

To some extent, it already has & is.

It is those w/o the TRUE household of faith, that refuse to accept God's word of TRUTH as it is written in context, that cause division & strife by asserting false ,mis- interpreted or their own private interpretations . Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Lip service is easy, it's the LIVING FOR , that causes faith in God to be seen.

I recognize those whom are in unity of the Spirit & faith in Jesus Christ by spiritual bearing witness with spiritual aspect of the Holy Spirit. Their words can be backed by the TRUTH of the word of God they rest in. We do not agree on every nuance of DENOMINAL statements of faith but if one says that Jesus is God, his gift of grace; our salvation is free, we walk, talk & live by being led of the Spirit in the word of God & our lives, then I can accept them as brothers & sisters in Christ !

 

[ElieG12]

Thanks.
That's an excellent answer to the topic question... - at what cost?
A sobering read for anyone who thinks that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.
These ARE the droids we were looking for.

The unity of the faith is necessary for the real unity that the people of God enjoy.

Eph. 4:4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

Compare JWs' posts and other's ... who are the droids?

You are confirming what I just said in my comment.

Do you know why God's people are compared in Scripture to a flock of sheep? Because the true worshipers of God are meek, they allow themselves to be taught and guided. That is why those who are not like that are compared to goats, because they are so proud that they pull the rope in the opposite direction to where they are being led by their shepherds.

What will be the end of the goats? (Matt. 25:31-46).

 

[amadeus]

There is a people of more than 8 millions on earth that have embraced one truth: Jehovah's witnesses.
How we did it? Because the people that Jesus really owns is here.

It is impossible to guide persons who think they don't need to learn anything because they think they are anointed with the Holy Spirit. All people out there says that, so they don't want to learn anything ... How there will be unity among people with that attitude?

Would you have me join the JWs? Would the Mormons have me join with them? Would so many of the other groups {denominations] have me I remember always inviting either the JWs or the Mormons to into my home for years because they were willing to make the effort come to my house and discuss. I talked with them and prayed with them discussing the Bible and the various differences between them and me. We got along very well... and the Mormons usually would come back. The JWs seldom would even through I invited them to do so. er. I never joined either group. I still believe that both groups have many things right, but not all. I know not another group [denomination] that does have it all right. Groups in my experience do not even if their written [or spoken?] essentials seem to be better than most [all?] of the others.

We are very diferent, and that's why ... We do not think we are all anointed and capable of interpreting the Bible as most of people in Christendom think they are. We follow some lead, of a few anointed ones who have proved they really have the guide of God. We don't want their position, we don't need to interpret the Scriptures by ourselves or invent doctrines that we think are truth, etc ... We follow our guides.

I am glad you are comfortable with where you are. Remember to continue growing keeping your eyes always toward God and not to trust any man, even a man claiming to be a man of God absolutely. [Of course, this includes me.]

I believe in having ministers as per Ephesians 4:11-16, but even ministers who really have been called to their calling by God may stumble at times and some have fallen down very far [to the bottom or into a pit?]. I have had some very bad leaders [pastors or teachers or ministers] and a couple of good ones, but I have yet to encounter one who from what I have been able to see or understand was always right in all of his beliefs and in all of his actions.

I have been reading my Bible in English since 1976 and in two other languages as well [German and Spanish] since 1978. I keep on digging into the scriptures and praying and striving to follow God always. At first, I thought I would be able get to where the biblical Enoch [ 7th from first man Adam] was when God "took him". It took me a long time to realize that that was not going to work for me.

Most people out there want to lead others and tell them what to believe and what to do ... They don't want to follow anyone because they say they follow Jesus ... All of them say the same, and that is funny: how all of them follow Jesus and they are all of them teaching and doing so many contradictory things? Jesus don't lead where there is caos. Whoever think that Jesus is there where contradictions are, is deceiving himself.

God alone is always right. His Son never sinned, but he did grow "in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man". If he was growing should not we also be growing so as become more like him as we continue on our walk during this time allotted to us as men of flesh? The Holy Spirit makes a difference, to me THE difference, but as you indicated different people will say that while strongly opposing each other in the things of God. I have my own answer to that, but unless you are interested, I won't speak of it. here.

Give God the glory always!

 

[amadeus]

That's good.
And it raises an interesting question.

When we feel that the Spirit has led us into a certain understanding, how do we react
to someone else that makes that claim but arrived at a different conclusion?

- Are they wrong?

Sometimes they may be.

- Are they right?

Sometimes they may be.

- Are we both wrong?

Sometimes we may be.

- Are we both right?

Sometimes we may be.

God always knows. How often do they or I know God's answer? For ma a key verse is this short one:

1th 5:19

Quench not the Spirit.

I have never attended a church meeting where they did not too often practice quenching the Spirit. Many of them, I believe, teach people to quench the Spirit with their rules and directions and prepared programs. Who should the leader always be?

 

[ElieG12]

Would you have me join the JWs? Would the Mormons have me join with them? Would so many of the other groups {denominations] have me I remember always inviting either the JWs or the Mormons to into my home for years because they were willing to make the effort come to my house and discuss. I talked with them and prayed with them discussing the Bible and the various differences between them and me. We got along very well... and the Mormons usually would come back. The JWs seldom would even through I invited them to do so. er. I never joined either group. I still believe that both groups have many things right, but not all. I know not another group [denomination] that does have it all right. Groups in my experience do not even if their written [or spoken?] essentials seem to be better than most [all?] of the others.

I am glad you are comfortable with where you are. Remember to continue growing keeping your eyes always toward God and not to trust any man, even a man claiming to be a man of God absolutely. [Of course, this includes me.]

I believe in having ministers as per Ephesians 4:11-16, but even ministers who really have been called to their calling by God may stumble at times and some have fallen down very far [to the bottom or into a pit?]. I have had some very bad leaders [pastors or teachers or ministers] and a couple of good ones, but I have yet to encounter one who from what I have been able to see or understand was always right in all of his beliefs and in all of his actions.

I have been reading my Bible in English since 1976 and in two other languages as well [German and Spanish] since 1978. I keep on digging into the scriptures and praying and striving to follow God always. At first, I thought I would be able get to where the biblical Enoch [ 7th from first man Adam] was when God "took him". It took me a long time to realize that that was not going to work for me.


God alone is always right. His Son never sinned, but he did grow "in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man". If he was growing should not we also be growing so as become more like him as we continue on our walk during this time allotted to us as men of flesh? The Holy Spirit makes a difference, to me THE difference, but as you indicated different people will say that while strongly opposing each other in the things of God. I have my own answer to that, but unless you are interested, I won't speak of it. here.

Give God the glory always!

Mmmh, no. I am just saying that there is a people that is united in beliefs, contrary to what the topic says ... and why it is like that.

People is wherever they like to be, and no one is a JWs just because; it is a process to learn the truth. I am a baptized JW since 1990 and still a student of the Bible, we all are. Every week we meet twice, and more times in a year. We are always learning. I see here people don't like to study ... so, no, people who does not like to study and learn can't be a JW ... or a real Christian, btw. (Matt. 28:19,20)

 

[amadeus]

Mmmh, no. I am just saying that there is a people that is united in beliefs, contrary to what the topic says ... and why it is like that.

People is wherever they like to be, and no one is a JWs just because; it is a process to learn the truth. I am a baptized JW since 1990 and still a student of the Bible, we all are. Every week we meet twice, and more times in a year. We are always learning. I see here people don't like to study ... so, no, people who does not like to study and learn can't be a JW ... or a real Christian, btw. (Matt. 28:19,20)

Understood!

 

[BarneyFife]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

I hate to post big nothings, but this OP deserves a more-thoughtful-than-usual response from me, especially since I basically asked for this thread to be started. But I have several very pressing matters to resolve that I can hopefully wrap up today and I'm not much of a multitasker, so I'll have to beg for a little patience.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

All true followers of Jesus already hav the unity of faith, though we may haggle over secondary doctrines. That is not to discount the differences, but we all believe the death and resurrection of Jesus and trusting in that is the only requirement for our salvation.

 

[BarneyFife]

All true followers of Jesus already hav the unity of faith, though we may haggle over secondary doctrines. That is not to discount the differences, but we all believe the death and resurrection of Jesus and trusting in that is the only requirement for our salvation.

So would you say that unity of the faith to the exclusion of secondary doctrines is a matter of primary doctrine?

 

[Enoch111]

Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

What else would it be? "The faith" is the body of Christian truth (Bible doctrine)
handed down by Christ to the apostles, who have handed it down to us in Scripture (Eph 4:4-6).

There is one Body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord,
one faith,
one baptism,
One God and Father of all,
who is above all,
and through all,
and in you all.

Therefore this is what Jude says: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[St. SteVen]

To some extent, it already has & is.

It is those w/o the TRUE household of faith, that refuse to accept God's word of TRUTH as it is written in context, that cause division & strife by asserting false ,mis- interpreted or their own private interpretations . Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Lip service is easy, it's the LIVING FOR , that causes faith in God to be seen.

I recognize those whom are in unity of the Spirit & faith in Jesus Christ by spiritual bearing witness with spiritual aspect of the Holy Spirit. Their words can be backed by the TRUTH of the word of God they rest in. We do not agree on every nuance of DENOMINAL statements of faith but if one says that Jesus is God, his gift of grace; our salvation is free, we walk, talk & live by being led of the Spirit in the word of God & our lives, then I can accept them as brothers & sisters in Christ !

So, to you unity comes by exclusion?
Those outside the parameters of your standard are labeled as not "the TRUE household of faith"?
Who decides whether an individual is in or out?

 

[St. SteVen]

What else would it be? "The faith" is the body of Christian truth (Bible doctrine)
handed down by Christ to the apostles, who have handed it down to us in Scripture (Eph 4:4-6).

If it was still present today we wouldn't need to discuss it. Where did it go?

 

[Keturah]

So, to you unity comes by exclusion?
Those outside the parameters of your standard are labeled as not "the TRUE household of faith"?
Who decides whether an individual is in or out?

I said this,

To some extent, it already has & is.

It is those w/o the TRUE household of faith, that refuse to accept God's word of TRUTH as it is written in context, that cause division & strife by asserting false ,mis- interpreted or their own private interpretations . Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Lip service is easy, it's the LIVING FOR , that causes faith in God to be seen.

I recognize those whom are in unity of the Spirit & faith in Jesus Christ by spiritual bearing witness with spiritual aspect of the Holy Spirit. Their words can be backed by the TRUTH of the word of God they rest in. We do not agree on every nuance of DENOMINAL statements of faith but if one says that Jesus is God, his gift of grace; our salvation is free, we walk, talk & live by being led of the Spirit in the word of God & our lives, then I can accept them as brothers & sisters in Christ !

Exclusion comes by the individuals choice NOT to believe EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAYS! I did not say I excluded anyone. I too have a choice though NOT TO BE UNEQUALLY YOKED WITH___________, you may fill in the blank.

I truly believe those whom share a fellowship with each other & their relationship to him, know & bear witness of the truth in the word of God, through the Spirit of God as it shines through each.

We are to identify those who walk contrary to the truths / commandments of the word and have no ongoing fellowship with such. Yet we are always to share the love of God with the deniers, rejecters and unbelieving of this world.Cultic, falsely indoctrinated, embedded in their " church" religiously cannot be changed except by him.

Just bc someone says they are a believer, doesn't always make it true. Testing the spirits reveals the truth!

 

[St. SteVen]

Exclusion comes by the individuals choice NOT to believe EXACTLY WHAT GOD SAYS! I did not say I excluded anyone. I too have a choice though NOT TO BE UNEQUALLY YOKED WITH___________, you may fill in the blank.

There is a curious contradiction here.
Your claim that you exclude no one is manifested in two ways people are excluded.
1) They exclude themselves. (blame the victim)
2) You choose to exclude them. (blame God = unequally yoked)

We are to identify those who walk contrary to the truths / commandments of the word and have no ongoing fellowship with such.

Yet another exclusionary claim that contradicts your "I did not say I excluded anyone." statement.

 

[Keturah]

There is a curious contradiction here.
Your claim that you exclude no one is manifested in two ways people are excluded.
1) They exclude themselves. (blame the victim)
2) You choose to exclude them. (blame God = unequally yoked)

Yet another exclusionary claim that contradicts your "I did not say I excluded anyone." statement.

God's sacrifice of his Son is the only way to the Father, IF folks choose NOT to accept his gift of grace in Jesus, our salvation they EXCLUDE themselves.
In obedience to the word we are not to fellowship with those of the world, and the workers of iniquity that CHOOSE to walk in darkness by their rejection , other than to give them the good news of the gospel!

Nothing I have said is contradictory, so move on you are BORING me !

 

[Enoch111]

If it was still present today we wouldn't need to discuss it. Where did it go?

Nowhere. It is still in the Bible. Look no further.