Unity of the faith - at what cost?

[St. SteVen]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

 

[Nancy]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

These are good questions brother!
IMHO:
1-I would say "yes"...to a point. The core tenets of Christianity, doctrinally speaking could never be sacrificed for unity but, other things like ones stance on the rapture, the millenial, and other secondary doctrines I don't think matter as, none of them deny Christ coming in the flesh, dying, resurrected on the 3rd day...

2-As long as these views do not cause division within a congregation, I see nothing wrong IF they can be discussed civilly and each give scripture to support their stance.

3-Well, same as I said above, IMHO as long as these doctrines do not violate the core truths of Christ, don't see a problem.

4-I guess it would depend on the view.

5-I think it's possible, as there seem to be some duality within the scriptures. Of course, all denominations use the scriptures to support their view. It would take some really diligent study to disprove some things.

That's all folks~

 

[Lambano]

1-I would say "yes"...to a point. The core tenets of Christianity, doctrinally speaking could never be sacrificed for unity but, other things like ones stance on the rapture, the millenial, and other secondary doctrines I don't think matter as, none of them deny Christ coming in the flesh, dying, resurrected on the 3rd day...

I don't think Christians even agree on what the core tenets of the faith are. For example, that subject we can't discuss, many would consider that non-negotiable.

 

[APAK]

- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

The answer is clearly NO to this question I singled out! Only one view is God's view and called biblical evidence, as there can be no opposition or other evidence with true meaning. All other views are of men and evil spirits substituting in their extra or non-Biblical evidence laid over scripture. And they uses scripture to force it to conform and support their false doctrines. Unfortunately, most of the crucial doctrine purported to be biblical is false. And the majority of Christendom believe in these false doctrines today as they did centuries before.

 

[Lambano]

Pinkie is back in the room.

And nobody is willing to say, "But the Emperor has no clothes on!"

There's a reason why our Catholic brothers and sisters reject "Sola Scriptura".

There's also a reason why Protestants demand a fixed standard.

 

[GISMYS_7]

God's truth or little men doctrins???

 

[Nancy]

I don't think Christians even agree on what the core tenets of the faith are. For example, that subject we can't discuss, many would consider that non-negotiable.

Tru dat...I'm talking about things like, Jesus came in the flesh, was tortured and killed for our sin, and rising 3 days later becoming the first fruits unto God as He was 1st to be resurrected to die no more...Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and there is no other path to God.

Lotta folks think there are many paths to God....

 

[Wrangler]

The answer is clearly NO to this question I singled out! Only one view is God's view and called biblical evidence, as there can be no opposition or other evidence with true meaning.

I can’t agree with you here APAK. Of course, God’s view is the correct one but we are talking about man’s ability to comprehend God’s word where there is not merely ambiguity but evidence for opposing doctrines, such as soul sleep.

Humility on our part to recognize the difference between the main thing from the other things.

 

[ElieG12]

That "no internal difference of belief is bad as long as everyone is at peace" position is misleading. It leads people in a direction contrary to that of Jesus: to the hope of the kingdom, which is truth and justice.

That position leads to ecumenism, IMO, and ends up accepting any belief and attitude no matter how serious it is from God's point of view. It is not what humans say is the right thing to do, but what the Scriptures show is the right way from God's point of view.

Does God allow religious lies or morally questionable actions (from a biblical point of view) to be allowed with the intention of maintaining "some peace" between people? Would that peace be real?

 

[GISMYS_7]

I can’t agree with you here APAK. Of course, God’s view is the correct one but we are talking about man’s ability to comprehend God’s word where there is not merely ambiguity but evidence for opposing doctrines, such as soul sleep.

Humility on our part to recognize the difference between the main thing from the other things.

""soul sleep = little man's idea and lack of understanding.

 

[APAK]

I can’t agree with you here APAK. Of course, God’s view is the correct one but we are talking about man’s ability to comprehend God’s word where there is not merely ambiguity but evidence for opposing doctrines, such as soul sleep.

Humility on our part to recognize the difference between the main thing from the other things.

I never said we can comprehend all of the word of God to the degree that would translate into sound doctrine. I believe though we have the power of the Spirit within us to know key scripture that then our doctrines are based upon.

So I think we are saying the same thing only I never made it clear in my post. You have to deduce this....

 

[Wrangler]

""soul sleep = little man's idea and lack of understanding.

Friend, no need to condemn points of doctrine. The point of this thread is can there be unity in the face of holding to different doctrines?

I pray for peace and unity and so also, pray yes to the question.

 

[St. SteVen]

There's a reason why our Catholic brothers and sisters reject "Sola Scriptura".

There's also a reason why Protestants demand a fixed standard.

Interesting.
I hadn't considered that a reason to reject Sola Scriptura, from the Catholic view,
is that unity from their POV can only come through the rule of Tradition.
(sorry, my delivery on that statement was a bit rough)

And Protestants fail where the RCC succeeds.
However, I won't be joining them any time soon. - LOL
Lovely folks, but... not for me.

 

[amadeus]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

If we could find the correct doctrines to embrace and which ones to reject according to man's logic alone, surely it would have already been done. Man's logic and/or common sense are NOT the Way to God. Are there any acceptable short cuts that will assure us we are heading the right direction or even are already in the right place now?

I believe they are written in the scriptures, but we must be careful about accepting any man's say on what is or is not true or essential to our walk.
The answer, I believe, is to been found by following the lead of the Holy Spirit at all times, but remember that I also am a man who also may be fallible. Following the Holy Spirit I am infallible. Quenching the Holy Spirit I am very fallible indeed. Does anyone always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit? If they do how indeed may we recognize them?

 

[Behold]

To have "unity of the faIth", everyone has to believe the same way about Faith, in one basic but critical context.

1.) What causes you to go to Heaven = is what took care of all your sin.

So where is the confusion that maintains all the confusion.? ????

That final answer.

So, let me ask you a question, and you dont need to respond, as my question is for your heart.
You may respond, but that is not necessary as i just want to to SEE THIS..

You'll understand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Watch this..

Its a short video in words.
--------------------------------------------

Reader,

You are standing on a very small Island, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and you are not Saved.

>Plane crash,...... the pilot is dead, and you are not..... and you are stranded, for now.
You have never read a bible, never listened to a Sermon, never gone to Church.
Your mother and father are life long Buddhist's.

You are alone on the Island..... almost.
Small island.

You are looking around, its early afternoon, sun is not quite beginning to set, and you see a man hanging on a Cross.

You approach, you get near Him.,,,,its surreal.
He is looking down at you, .. His eyes are like a beautiful LIGHT that seem to be looking inside you .
And something in you, is responding to Him... its odd....strange., like nothing you've ever felt before.
A minute passes.
2 minutes.
3 minutes of silence.
He is still looking at you.

Then He says... Your Name.
Hello Paul.
You say, How do you know my name.?!
And Jesus says... because i know everything. And you realize that you believe Him, but, dont know why.
You just do.
And you are shocked.

He is nailed to a Cross, its two small trees, roped together.
He is bleeding, profusely..... Face is horribly marred. Its purple and blue and extremely swollen. Nose is broken, twisted.... His beard is pulled out. Some of his ribs are showing... Blood is everywhere... and you can tell He is in intense pain and is about to die.

He says...My name is Jesus.... My Father is beyond the Sky. And i came down from the Sky.
We call this Heaven, where im from., and im about to go back to Heaven,.... but i have something to complete for you, first.

And you say, for me?
And He says... Yes, just for you, Paul.
And you say... like what..?

And Jesus says,..... im about to die for you so that you can go to Heaven, also, when you die.
And you Believe Him.. .and you can't understand it.... but you just KNOW He is telling the Truth.
You want to hear more...

And you say... why are you dying for me, Jesus ?
And Jesus says... Paul....you have done many bad things in your life... You have stolen, you have lied, you have murdered.
And you start shaking... You are shaking...
How do you know that, Jesus !?!
And He says... again......... i know everything,.
And you know its TRUE.,, as you have lied, you have stolen, and you have murdered someone, and they never caught you.

Now you are crying, .. and you feel shame that He knows all about you.
Its as if He can read you mind from the Cross.
He just did, you realize.

He says... "Paul"... listen.. time is short for me....
I came for you... I came so that i can die on this Cross for your all bad deeds so that you can go to Heaven.
I am taking the punishment for everything that is your entire life of bad deeds.
I am doing this for you, because I love you... I LOVE. You.. Paul.
And now you can't stand up,. You feel weak, but loved. You feel so strange but secure. You fall to your knees before this Cross of Christ.
You just KNOW that JESUS is telling the truth. Something in your heart of heart BELIEVES Him.
He just told you all about you..

And Jesus says... "Paul", do you believe what i said... do you believe that i am dying for you, in your place, for your lifetime of bad deeds?
And you say... Yes, Jesus, Yes Jesus......YES I Believe...., as your tears keep falling.

Jesus then smiles through His broken teeth, and says... Yes, i know you do. I know you do, Paul.

Im going to die now,..... and you are going to bury me, and you will never forget me, and i will never forget you.
They will find you tomorrow and everything is going to be ok.

You say... I believe you... I do. Thank you Jesus.... I know that everything is going to be alright now, because you said so.

And Jesus says..., from this day forward, remember that i gave my life for you, and remember that Heaven is now your Home, and i will see you there soon, Paul... I love you., always.

And Jesus then dies......for Paul.


See that reader?
We are all that Paul.
Its just us, and Jesus.

Welcome to : Salvation.

Its a Gift. And You just watched the Gift give Himself for you.

That is why you will go to Heaven.
Believe it.

Accept no substitute.

 

[Lambano]

Interesting.
I hadn't considered that a reason to reject Sola Scriptura, from the Catholic view,
is that unity from their POV can only come through the rule of Tradition.
(sorry, my delivery on that statement was a bit rough)

And Protestants fail where the RCC succeeds.
However, I won't be joining them any time soon. - LOL
Lovely folks, but... not for me.

I've had some good interactions with Catholics on other boards. As they explained it, they have "official" interpretations of scripture; "private interpretations" are highly discouraged. I once accepted a challenge to review some online document summarizing central Catholic doctrine. I burned out around article 1425 or so, but I was somewhat surprised to note they cited scripture on every article - although the hermeneutical principles used seemed designed to maximize the authority of the Church hierarchy. (But I'm not a cynical man...) Unity through control of scriptural interpretation.

Anyway, Sola Scriptura cannot bring the promised unity because we all interpret scripture through the lenses of Tradition, Reason, and Experience (to misappropriate a concept from my own denomination's tradition), and those three corners of the Quadrilateral are peculiar to every individual. On the contrary, it could be argued from history that the Reformation was the primary cause of the current disunity of Christ's church.

 

[Lambano]

Tru dat...I'm talking about things like, Jesus came in the flesh, was tortured and killed for our sin, and rising 3 days later becoming the first fruits unto God as He was 1st to be resurrected to die no more...Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and there is no other path to God.

My own list of non-negotiables is pretty short too. I guess that means we would accept as brothers and sisters in Christ many who would not accept us.

 

[Keturah]

The words of God & of Christ are the doctrines that we must follow.
Many has certainly twisted them by their own theological interpretations.
Do or should   any of us accept man's word, when we have God's?

The unity of " the faith" should be to those who believe & confess the deity of Jesus Christ. We must acknowledge the payment of our sin penalty by him, our justification by that payment, and the hope we have that it is a finished work by his resurrection ascension & glorification; our salvation.

We should come to a place that we recognize sin, in all it's forms , whether by " commission" or "omission", and resist & reject such. The word teaches us to be both doers & hearers of the word, for to KNOW TO DO GOOD AND DOETH IT NOT TO HIM IT IS SIN.

We have NO righteousness in ourselves, nor can we " work" by the traditions of men to garner favour with God. We MUST put on HIS righteousness, walk in HIS Spirit as we are obedient to HIS word.

Then can the saying come to pass, how good and pleasant it is, when we dwell in unity!

 

[ElieG12]

If we could find the correct doctrines to embrace and which ones to reject (...)

There is a people of more than 8 millions on earth that have embraced one truth: Jehovah's witnesses.
How we did it? Because the people that Jesus really owns is here.

It is impossible to guide persons who think they don't need to learn anything because they think they are anointed with the Holy Spirit. All people out there says that, so they don't want to learn anything ... How there will be unity among people with that attitude?

We are very diferent, and that's why ... We do not think we are all anointed and capable of interpreting the Bible as most of people in Christendom think they are. We follow some lead, of a few anointed ones who have proved they really have the guide of God. We don't want their position, we don't need to interpret the Scriptures by ourselves or invent doctrines that we think are truth, etc ... We follow our guides.

Most people out there want to lead others and tell them what to believe and what to do ... They don't want to follow anyone because they say they follow Jesus ... All of them say the same, and that is funny: how all of them follow Jesus and they are all of them teaching and doing so many contradictory things? Jesus don't lead where there is caos. Whoever think that Jesus is there where contradictions are, is deceiving himself.

 

[St. SteVen]

believe they are written in the scriptures, but we must be careful about accepting any man's say on what is or is not true or essential to our walk.
The answer, I believe, is to been found by following the lead of the Holy Spirit at all times, but remember that I also am a man who also may be fallible. Following the Holy Spirit I am infallible. Quenching the Holy Spirit I am very fallible indeed. Does anyone always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit? If they do how indeed may we recognize them?

That's good.
And it raises an interesting question.

When we feel that the Spirit has led us into a certain understanding, how do we react
to someone else that makes that claim but arrived at a different conclusion?

- Are they wrong?
- Are they right?
- Are we both wrong?
- Are we both right?