Unity of the faith - at what cost?

[BarneyFife]

There is a curious contradiction here.
Your claim that you exclude no one is manifested in two ways people are excluded.
1) They exclude themselves. (blame the victim)
2) You choose to exclude them. (blame God = unequally yoked)

Yet another exclusionary claim that contradicts your "I did not say I excluded anyone." statement.

It is hard for many of us to distinguish between what needs to be shared with others and what needs to be worked out between our own souls and God.

It would be very handy if there were detailed, separate "mote-splinter" and "beam" lists. Unfortunately (or fortunately, truth be told), folks grow in wisdom and stature from different perspectives and at different paces.

 

[Enoch111]

They exclude themselves. (blame the victim)

Actually that is not blaming the victim but dealing with reality. Those who deliberately choose false doctrines do exclude themselves. They make that choice, and even after they are shown the truth they refuse to give up their false beliefs. Rather they double down and try to justify themselves.

If the Bible speaks of "sound doctrine" -- which it does -- then it follows that there is also unsound or false doctrine. And it the duty and privilege of every Christian to determine what is sound and what is false. that comes from a careful study of Scripture (with the Lord's help).

 

[St. SteVen]

Nothing I have said is contradictory, so move on you are BORING me !

LOL
Okay, see if this is more challenging...

In obedience to the word we are not to fellowship with those of the world

WWJD?
A friend of whom?

Matthew 11:18-19 NIV
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,
‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’
But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

Matthew 9:10-12 NIV
While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house,
many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples.
11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples,
“Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 On hearing this, Jesus said,
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

Acts 10:27-28 NIV
While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people.
28 He said to them:
“You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.
But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nowhere. It is still in the Bible. Look no further.

So, if the Bible says we are in unity we need not do anything?
Well, we're making some real progress here. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

It is hard for many of us to distinguish between what needs to be shared with others and what needs to be worked out between our own souls and God.

It would be very handy if there were detailed, separate "mote-splinter" and "beam" lists. Unfortunately (or fortunately, truth be told), folks grow in wisdom and stature from different perspectives and at different paces.

Oftentimes the grain of sand in others that irritates us, is a mountain in our own life.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
They exclude themselves. (blame the victim)

Actually that is not blaming the victim but dealing with reality.

No, if you purposely CHOOSE to shun someone, it's on you. IMHO

Those who deliberately choose false doctrines do exclude themselves. They make that choice, and even after they are shown the truth they refuse to give up their false beliefs. Rather they double down and try to justify themselves.

Deliberately choose false doctrines?
No one would deliberately chooses false doctrines. That's ridiculous.
What is this REALLY about? (tribalism)

Double down and try to justify themselves?
That saw cuts both ways.

Typically two opposing doctrinal opinions clash and both parties attack each other.
They part ways, each claiming the other is only justifying themselves.
Which accomplishes what? Love, or hate?

They will know we are Christians by our tribalism? (seems so)

If the Bible speaks of "sound doctrine" -- which it does -- then it follows that there is also unsound or false doctrine. And it the duty and privilege of every Christian to determine what is sound and what is false. that comes from a careful study of Scripture (with the Lord's help).

Requires some discernment to know the difference between black and white, and gray.
Too many are shunned over gray areas. (when we don't use our gray matter) - LOL

 

[Nancy]

So, if the Bible says we are in unity we need not do anything?
Well, we're making some real progress here. - LOL

Some say, "fake it to make it", I call that bunk, AND hypocritical. Either we Agape one another or we don't. In my experience, most Christians in the mainline churches are cold and distant. The best church I've ever been to was from 1991-1996. They were of a Baptist bent but called an Assembly of God denom. It was the warmest and kindest congregation I've ever encountered, even to this day.
The pastor ended up hiring on an asst. pastor. That's when things went sideways. The new pastor and his wife caused all kinds of division and the church split. Was never the same after that.
I saw that as an attack from the enemy.

Let's Agape one another - sacrificial love, not Huggy-bear kissy-face kind of love, that's the worlds way as, we can still love even if we do not like somebody.
"The love of many shall grow cold."
We see that even on this board!

 

[Episkopos]

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

Unity of the faith can only be by resurrection life and a living witness of Christ. The LAST thing we will come to is doctrinal unity as we all experience that same life.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?

I think it is necessary to discern what constitutes actual doctrine...apart from human interpretations and preferences. Again, the doctrine of the power of a new life in Christ...as it is experienced or witnessed..is our true guide. The bible has been interpreted in thousands of ways creating thousands of denominations...and yet people refuse to learn the futility of that.

Unless Jesus and the early church had witnessed divine miracles in the temporal world...there would be NO Christianity today. Without the healings, the wonders, and finally the resurrection...all the wisdom and truth in the world and in heaven would not have created the kind of following we see today. We humans work in reverse. We never understand truth for its own sake. And even then we tend to get the message wrong. We tend to draw the wrong conclusions.

- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?

Yes. UNTIL we all come to the unity of the faith.

- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?

Some doctrines are such. Others are part of learning to grow out of a carnal appreciations of things.

- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?

There are many biblical positions...but each of these has to ignore major portions of the bible...even as it champions an unbalanced reading of the text based on a human interpretation.

We tend to defend our understanding ABOUT God while not bothering to actually know Him for ourselves.

- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

Both views will usually be PARTIALLY true...like the argument between Calvinism and Armenianism. If it has a man's name to it...it is of men.

 

[Behold]

Who decides whether an individual is in or out?

A.). Jesus.


Jesus said...."you must be BORN Again".... and He's not describing water baptism.

 

[Behold]

God's sacrifice of his Son is the only way to the Father,

This.

 

[Behold]

then it follows that there is also unsound or false doctrine. And it the duty and privilege of every Christian to determine what is sound and what is false. that comes from a careful study of Scripture (with the Lord's help).

Go directly to Paul for "church (body of Christ) doctrine",
And stay there.

Start here, Enoch111

Romans 3:21

Hebrews 13:9

 

[BarneyFife]

God's sacrifice of his Son is the only way to the Father, IF folks choose NOT to accept his gift of grace in Jesus, our salvation they EXCLUDE themselves.
In obedience to the word we are not to fellowship with those of the world, and the workers of iniquity that CHOOSE to walk in darkness by their rejection , other than to give them the good news of the gospel!

Nothing I have said is contradictory, so move on you are BORING me !

Are you really dependent on the action or inaction of others to keep you from boredom?

 

[Jim B]

Some say, "fake it to make it", I call that bunk, AND hypocritical. Either we Agape one another or we don't. In my experience, most Christians in the mainline churches are cold and distant. The best church I've ever been to was from 1991-1996. They were of a Baptist bent but called an Assembly of God denom. It was the warmest and kindest congregation I've ever encountered, even to this day.
The pastor ended up hiring on an asst. pastor. That's when things went sideways. The new pastor and his wife caused all kinds of division and the church split. Was never the same after that.
I saw that as an attack from the enemy.

Let's Agape one another - sacrificial love, not Huggy-bear kissy-face kind of love, that's the worlds way as, we can still love even if we do not like somebody.
"The love of many shall grow cold."
We see that even on this board!

Either we (including you) agape one another or we don't.

You wrote "In my experience, most Christians in the mainline churches are cold and distant". So, why don't you agape them?

And what kind of sophistry is "we can still love even if we do not like somebody"?

In Christianity, agape is "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God". This is in contrast to philia, brotherly love, or philautia, self-love, as it embraces a deep and profound sacrificial love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.

 

[Nancy]

Either we (including you) agape one another or we don't.

You wrote "In my experience, most Christians in the mainline churches are cold and distant". So, why don't you agape them?

And what kind of sophistry is "we can still love even if we do not like somebody"?

In Christianity, agape is "the highest form of love, charity" and "the love of God for man and of man for God". This is in contrast to philia, brotherly love, or philautia, self-love, as it embraces a deep and profound sacrificial love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance.

Yes, I am aware of the different kinds of love in the bible. The last church I attended for 3 plus years was very cold, and not just to me, but ALL who did not subscribe to the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine were considered unsaved and, they will shun you until you leave.
And, the last 3 I visited either taught false doctrine or were way too big and the whole place emptied out so fast when services were over. I spent maybe a few months coming early for the first sermon to see if some would have time to fellowship in between sermons (one at 9, one at 11) I came early and left late and stayed for both services. So, no real fellowship. I also tried two of their small groups, which whittled down each week. The couple hosting the one tried to get those members who came for the first and second studies to return. It ended up being just myself and the couple! Covid hit, and nobody did them anymore. Besides, everything was mapped out by the church, they asked the questions, and they gave the answers, that is just indoctrination and does not help you to seek the answers on our own. I tried 2 others after that and they were SCREEMING liberals and, gay was ok...practicing couples as well were invited. I was shunned there and at their sister church (which I did not know) THAT pastor never returned any of my calls. I chalk that up to a married couple at the 1st church, I said hi and asked what they were doing at that church...they said their (uber liberal) church was their sister church. Then started talking about stuff, I brought up the gay thing and what does the husband say while giggling? "Well, we ALL have our pet sins" !!!!! I wanted to punch him...then repented right away, said have a great day and God bless.

BTW-I Agape EVERYONE!

 

[Ritajanice]

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So would you say that unity of the faith to the exclusion of secondary doctrines is a matter of primary doctrine?

Yes. However many would haggle over what is considered primary and what is secondary doctrine. I accept what was handed down as the five fundamentals of the faith at the turn of the 20th century, by a consortium of believing sects.

 

[Jim B]

Yes, I am aware of the different kinds of love in the bible. The last church I attended for 3 plus years was very cold, and not just to me, but ALL who did not subscribe to the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine were considered unsaved and, they will shun you until you leave.
And, the last 3 I visited either taught false doctrine or were way too big and the whole place emptied out so fast when services were over. I spent maybe a few months coming early for the first sermon to see if some would have time to fellowship in between sermons (one at 9, one at 11) I came early and left late and stayed for both services. So, no real fellowship. I also tried two of their small groups, which whittled down each week. The couple hosting the one tried to get those members who came for the first and second studies to return. It ended up being just myself and the couple! Covid hit, and nobody did them anymore. Besides, everything was mapped out by the church, they asked the questions, and they gave the answers, that is just indoctrination and does not help you to seek the answers on our own. I tried 2 others after that and they were SCREEMING liberals and, gay was ok...practicing couples as well were invited. I was shunned there and at their sister church (which I did not know) THAT pastor never returned any of my calls. I chalk that up to a married couple at the 1st church, I said hi and asked what they were doing at that church...they said their (uber liberal) church was their sister church. Then started talking about stuff, I brought up the gay thing and what does the husband say while giggling? "Well, we ALL have our pet sins" !!!!! I wanted to punch him...then repented right away, said have a great day and God bless.

BTW-I Agape EVERYONE!

BTW-You Agape EVERYONE? It certainly doesn't seem that way from what you wrote.

 

[Nancy]

BTW-You Agape EVERYONE? It certainly doesn't seem that way from what you wrote.

And what was it I wrote that offends you this time?

 

[Behold]

Yes. However many would haggle over what is considered primary and what is secondary doctrine. I accept what was handed down as the five fundamentals of the faith at the turn of the 20th century, by a consortium of believing sects.

Put all that in a box, .... get a New Testament, and study Paul's Epistles.

Don't look back.

 

[BarneyFife]

Since faith is a gift and comes in different levels, it also comes with the fundamental truth about Jesus.

I'm not seeing how the conclusion follows the assumption here.