Universalism ?

[Stranger]

This is one subject that I believe in..." T the name of Jesus, EVERY knee SHALL bow, and EVERY tongue SHALL confess that Jesus Christ is LORD.
I am not saying...there is no FIRE...for our God IS a consuming fire.
"The fire tries every mans works.."

I wont argue this point with anyone, or try to convince anyone...because it is something that I believe that God showed me. =( the amazing grace and love of God for the creation that HE brought into being)
If it doesn't happen, then I lose nothing. I have just lived happy decades believing that God had more grace and love than maybe turns out to be true.
BUT, I would rather live judging God to be merciful and loving...than live how I used to live, for many years as a Christian....believing God to be harsh and ready to destroy those who didn't - " Bow the knee and declare Him as Lord"...before the end.
People say to me.."Well what about sin...if you believe how you believe... you can live how you like , and still be saved at the end!"
The answer to that is..."Then the person has never really fallen in love with God. " Love for Him, is always what keeps us from sin. Always has been, always will be.
Also, Christians that ask that question, obviously don't understand what "running the race" is all about...or either .." making our Calling and Election SURE. "
I believe that on earth we each live as close to God as we want to live.
I also believe that where we dwell on earth in relation to His Presence ,is also where we will dwell in 'heaven' in relation to our Father. This to me is 'the prize of the high calling ...' which Paul spoke of.
Just saying....this is where I personally stand on this subject
Not trying to persuade anyone else.

You say where we dwell on earth in relation to His Presence, is also where we will dwell in heaven. What do you base this on? Because what you are saying is that my relationship there will be no better than my relationship here. In other words, nothing changes.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

You say where we dwell on earth in relation to His Presence, is also where we will dwell in heaven. What do you base this on? Because what you are saying is that my relationship there will be no better than my relationship here. In other words, nothing changes.

Stranger

Hi there
Well, I do believe that. The thing is...why would (should) we expect to wake up in heaven, and find that we have a special relationship with God there, when we haven't " pressed-in" and given our relationship 100% attention down here. I don't think that just because our salvation has been purchases that we coast into heaven on a bed of roses.
I take this beliefs from " lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven"..and other scriptures...even the parable of the Talents ...the Oil in the vessel , five foolish five wise etc .( obviously "to me" the five foolish did not have the passion that the other five had..they were coasting on a gamble)
People will always argue the point and say- " Ah yes, but this is not written to us, it is to the Jews..."
It always makes me laugh when people use the- " oh thats not meant for us" and then we hear them quote OT verses to justify something that they believe!
As I say, This is just something I believe.. ..If we are really " Seeking first the Kingdom.." then our whole way of life is one of passion...God first.
If not, what do you feel that Paul is saying when he talks of - 'the prize of the high calling ...' etc..He says- " Receive not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in vain..." and -" Lest I be a castaway" = which we know means "missing the mark." He for sure wasn't talking about losing his salvation at the end...He knew his salvation was sure...he was talking about not missing his target..The Prize=The Intimate Presence of God. Full Union.
I believe that the cost of living by the dictates of the flesh is The cost of losing His Presence. I cherish the presence of God. I know we mostly have to just "take it by faith"...but there is also the 'felt presence' of God in our lives. Paul talks much about the flesh and the carnal man. Our salvation cost Jesus everything. Our walk is our response of our love for Him..
If we don't feel the ouch of the cross touch our life daily, then we are not of those who have "taken up our cross and are following Him." (separation and holiness..two very old fashioned words that are not used much in this day!! )
Our Salvation is free, our position has yet to be proved..it will cost us.
The walk of the cross, always costs the flesh man.

But, in my other post I was just letting myself share what I personally believe. I am not usually that transparent. It seems on this site that transparency can be a dangerous thing. LOL People throw around the words 'Wrong and 'Error or, 'that doesn't make sense' ,very freely.( which sets themselves up as judge, and obviously a judge that 'knows all things' and is 'totally correct' in all they believe!! (I put that down to insecurity...something in them that just has to be right.)

Anyway, as I mentioned , this is where I personally stand .
These have been my dealing with the Lord. This is what I believe.
And, If I give my walk with my Beloved everything that I have got...and run the race with passion, dwelling in His Presence daily...and it just so happens to have been wrong....I have NOTHING to lose...I love Him.
But, If I just "presume" ( risk) that because I have been saved through Jesus' Perfect sacrifice that cost me nothing...and if I have lived presuming that I will wake up in the Throne Room "up close and very personal" with Father...what a shock if I find that even though salvation was free, yet my position in glory was by my choices while here on earth!! I would be "of all people most miserable"!!
So, I am personally not a risk taker.....and through reading scripture I see that we choose how close or far away we live here now......and later. Our choice, He leaves us free.
As I said.....I am not trying to persuade anyone else on what I myself believe.
And, maybe I should not be quite so open about what I do believe!
Bless you!
===
P.S. 2 Pet 1

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

 

[Wormwood]

so what we see here that this is not as easily or clearly understood as it should be - yes of course and exactly all, even Muslims and Hindus have been, are and will be born again as little Christian children who will simply simply believe - so we see the profundity of what Jesus said and meant when He said 'love one another as I have loved you' and love your enemies as I have loved mine = father forgive them for they know not what they do - twinc

I think it is a mistake to take one attribute or quality of God while ignoring the others to establish a doctrine. The Bible does not teach universalism. There are scores of text that deal with judgment, punishment and condemnation. Jesus is the Savior of the world but that simply means that he has the power and provision to save all people of all nations. It does not mean all people will be saved. If that is the case, Bibles, preaching, evangelism and the Church as a whole have no value or purpose.

 

[Wormwood]

He for sure wasn't talking about losing his salvation at the end...

Are you sure about that? The entire context there is dealing with salvation, not heavenly rewards.

'Wrong and 'Error or, 'that doesn't make sense' ,very freely.( which sets themselves up as judge, and obviously a judge that 'knows all things' and is 'totally correct' in all they believe!!

I do not agree that disagreeing with someone or believing (and stating) that they are wrong is being judgmental. If that is true, does that mean we have to agree with everything? If someone says that Jesus is not the Savior, am I acting as their judge by saying I believe they are wrong and in error?

and if I have lived presuming that I will wake up in the Throne Room "up close and very personal" with Father...what a shock if I find that even though salvation was free, yet my position in glory was by my choices while here on earth!! I would be "of all people most miserable"!!

Not sure what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are saying that those who do not invest in their salvation will end up in the nosebleed section in heaven and be somewhat disappointed in their status there because of their own lack of effort. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but is that what you are trying to say?

 

[Helen]

I think it is a mistake to take one attribute or quality of God while ignoring the others to establish a doctrine. The Bible does not teach universalism. There are scores of text that deal with judgment, punishment and condemnation. Jesus is the Savior of the world but that simply means that he has the power and provision to save all people of all nations. It does not mean all people will be saved. If that is the case, Bibles, preaching, evangelism and the Church as a whole have no value or purpose.

Preaching, evangelism etc is for the salvation of the soul as I see it. Then follows the growing up in grace and love.
That's the thing , we all know that we can each bring scriptures to the table to justify what we each believe. Easily done. I believe that He will save everyone...I may well be wrong. I just can no longer see a God who would destroy and send to Hell forever humanity that 'caught the disease" from Adam. That is the God that I was taught, and dutifully believed to be true.
My position now is, I believe that God showed me this in a very real way.
If I turn my back on it now, I feel I am denying what I believe God spoke.
I do not for one moment disregard punishment, it is there in the word.
I just can no longer believe that it is for all eternity. I still believe God wins.
I somehow can't see God cheering at the end..with a remnant of those who have believed...and saying " This was My Plan all the time..what a victory..a few saved, and billions into the fire ."

I will just have to be branded a heretic. This is why I hardly ever speak about it. Maybe I shouldn't have fallen into the trap of responding to Twinc's Thread..on "Universalism".

 

[Wormwood]

There are a number of things I strongly disagree with in your response...

Preaching, evangelism etc is for the salvation of the soul as I see it. Then follows the growing up in grace and love.

Yet if you believe all will be saved, then preaching is not for the salvation of the soul...all souls will be saved. Not following you here.

That's the thing , we all know that we can each bring scriptures to the table to justify what we each believe.

Yet one of us is right and the other wrong (or both are wrong). I believe the Scriptures are meant to be understood. I don't think God is trying to confuse us and it seems Jesus felt like people should understand the Scriptures as they will be held accountable by them. So, I think while we each may try to justify our beliefs with the Scriptures, the reality is one of us (or both) is misusing them and perhaps exploring those Scriptures will help to reveal what they actually teach instead of what we want to believe.

I just can no longer see a God who would destroy and send to Hell forever humanity that 'caught the disease" from Adam. That is the God that I was taught, and dutifully believed to be true.

I have two issues with this statement. 1) I believe that our obligation is to believe what God has revealed about himself and not what we feel is acceptable or not. Faith is about believing what God has said, not what I feel like should be true. 2) The notion that sin is a "disease" that we catch is not at all how the Bible portrays the human condition. I would encourage you to read Romans 3. Humans do not have a disease. They are filled with wickedness, hate, spite, malice, murder, lies, envy, and a lack of fear of God. The wrath of God comes not because we are helpless people who have an illness due to no fault of our own. It comes because we are willful sinners who refuse to worship God, know what is evil and not only do it, but encourage others to join in. God is not unjust in punishing sin. In fact, Revelation portrays all of heaven declaring "Holy and just are your judgments" as God brings destruction on the wicked. I think if you lived in the Middle East and had your family crucified and beheaded by ISIS, you would have a different take on the nature of sin and the goodness of God's vengeance.

I just can no longer believe that it is for all eternity. I still believe God wins.

1) There are people who do not believe in eternal torment who are not universalists. 2) This is a false dichotomy. You are painting the picture that if not all people are saved, then God loses. Rob Bell championed this false premise in his book "Love Wins." God's desire was to create a free-will people with the capacity to choose between opposites. So while he desires all to be saved, he also desires people to have freedom of choice. So to imply that God loses if not all are saved is simply not true. It does not capture the fullness of what God desires and what God is trying to accomplish in the world through Jesus Christ.

I somehow can't see God cheering at the end..with a remnant of those who have believed...and saying " This was My Plan all the time..what a victory..a few saved, and billions into the fire .

This is a hyperbolic distortion of traditional Christian beliefs. It goes two ways. I can paint your views the same way. "I somehow can't see God cheering at the end and hugging close his beloved Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin after they ruthlessly butchered and women and children saying, "This was my plan all the time, what a victory....the evil and faithless rewarded eternally for their murders, greed, adulteries, sorceries and rape."

So, lets not caricaturize people's beliefs to make them look foolish and untenable.

 

[Helen]

Not

Not sure what you are saying here, but it sounds like you are saying that those who do not invest in their salvation will end up in the nosebleed section in heaven and be somewhat disappointed in their status there because of their own lack of effort. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but is that what you are trying to say?

Yes, that is what I am saying...but not sure I would use those words though!!
I wouldn't say " invest in their salvation " ...because that does not sound much 'for loves sake.'!!
I would say, 'invest in their love relationship with the Lord.'
Surely it is all about our love for Him is it not? ( He has proved His love for us, now, we are proving our love for Him). He Himself is the Prize. That is what it is all about...it is for me anyway.
I don't know why people object so strongly ( not saying you are...but ) Jesus did not take all His deciples up the Mount with Him...He chose Peter, James and John only... I can't see in the Word that we are all one happy , clappy, glob in heaven. I do not put myself equal with Abraham, Moses, Elisha, David, Paul....God forbid! Every man in his own order....But I do "so run ..." as Paul told us to..
We are not running against each other...but we run to fill the place that Jesus went ahead to prepare for each of us.
Revelation has many- " And to him that overcometh I will give..." ...we can't overcome unless there is something to overcome.....the flesh man must be put under...by faith ...but faith is not alone..faith and works are two sides of the same coin.
But, as I say...that's just me...

 

[Helen]

I think it best that I just shut up. I said to Stranger that I don't ever argue or debate what I believe regarding this. It is a personal private thing. It would have been better left unsaid.

 

[Wormwood]

Ok, well this is a forum for discussion. I understand if you don't feel comfortable talking about some of your beliefs. I hope you don't feel like me challenging them is an attack on you. I believe issues like eternal salvation and judgment are weighty matters that deserve deep thought and consideration. Although, again, I understand if you would prefer not to try to explain or defend your beliefs on the matter.

 

[twinc]

I think it best that I just shut up. I said to Stranger that I don't ever argue or debate what I believe regarding this. It is a personal private thing. It would have been better left unsaid.

it should be as Paul says at Rmns 3:19 and John says at Jn 20:31 - twinc

 

[Stranger]

Hi there
Well, I do believe that. The thing is...why would (should) we expect to wake up in heaven, and find that we have a special relationship with God there, when we haven't " pressed-in" and given our relationship 100% attention down here. I don't think that just because our salvation has been purchases that we coast into heaven on a bed of roses.
I take this beliefs from " lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven"..and other scriptures...even the parable of the Talents ...the Oil in the vessel , five foolish five wise etc .( obviously "to me" the five foolish did not have the passion that the other five had..they were coasting on a gamble)
People will always argue the point and say- " Ah yes, but this is not written to us, it is to the Jews..."
It always makes me laugh when people use the- " oh thats not meant for us" and then we hear them quote OT verses to justify something that they believe!
As I say, This is just something I believe.. ..If we are really " Seeking first the Kingdom.." then our whole way of life is one of passion...God first.
If not, what do you feel that Paul is saying when he talks of - 'the prize of the high calling ...' etc..He says- " Receive not the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ in vain..." and -" Lest I be a castaway" = which we know means "missing the mark." He for sure wasn't talking about losing his salvation at the end...He knew his salvation was sure...he was talking about not missing his target..The Prize=The Intimate Presence of God. Full Union.
I believe that the cost of living by the dictates of the flesh is The cost of losing His Presence. I cherish the presence of God. I know we mostly have to just "take it by faith"...but there is also the 'felt presence' of God in our lives. Paul talks much about the flesh and the carnal man. Our salvation cost Jesus everything. Our walk is our response of our love for Him..
If we don't feel the ouch of the cross touch our life daily, then we are not of those who have "taken up our cross and are following Him." (separation and holiness..two very old fashioned words that are not used much in this day!! )
Our Salvation is free, our position has yet to be proved..it will cost us.
The walk of the cross, always costs the flesh man.

But, in my other post I was just letting myself share what I personally believe. I am not usually that transparent. It seems on this site that transparency can be a dangerous thing. LOL People throw around the words 'Wrong and 'Error or, 'that doesn't make sense' ,very freely.( which sets themselves up as judge, and obviously a judge that 'knows all things' and is 'totally correct' in all they believe!! (I put that down to insecurity...something in them that just has to be right.)

Anyway, as I mentioned , this is where I personally stand .
These have been my dealing with the Lord. This is what I believe.
And, If I give my walk with my Beloved everything that I have got...and run the race with passion, dwelling in His Presence daily...and it just so happens to have been wrong....I have NOTHING to lose...I love Him.
But, If I just "presume" ( risk) that because I have been saved through Jesus' Perfect sacrifice that cost me nothing...and if I have lived presuming that I will wake up in the Throne Room "up close and very personal" with Father...what a shock if I find that even though salvation was free, yet my position in glory was by my choices while here on earth!! I would be "of all people most miserable"!!
So, I am personally not a risk taker.....and through reading scripture I see that we choose how close or far away we live here now......and later. Our choice, He leaves us free.
As I said.....I am not trying to persuade anyone else on what I myself believe.
And, maybe I should not be quite so open about what I do believe!
Bless you!
===
P.S. 2 Pet 1

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

Howdy

I agree that there is a cost here in our walk with the Lord. And that if we allow ourselves to live in accordance to the flesh and not the Spirit, then we will suffer in our relationship here with the Lord. It could not be otherwise. But, to say this determines forever our relationship with the Lord gives no room for a growing relationship when we get there. And I do believe we will continue to grow in that as well as in knowledge and other things.

I do have the opinion that we will take off there where we left off here in our relationship with the Lord. And then improve and grow from there.

To your 'universal' beliefs it appears to me you are affected by your feelings more than Scripture. You don't want to believe God could punish people forever in the lake of fire. But, could you believe that God planned for His Son to go through what He did?

Stranger

 

[Job]

Universalism is satanic in nature. It makes God out to be a liar by denying eternal damnation. It denies Christ by making His sacrifice worthless. His blood is no longer required to cover sins because everyone's name is in the Book of Life.

"For God so loved the world..." doesn't mean anything because we all go to heaven whether we want to or not.

"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a lie because there is no hell according to universalism.

Universalism spits on the blood of Jesus. It tells the world you can worship Christ if you want to but it's not necessary.

Universalism is a lie.

.

 

[DPMartin]

naturally since the vast majority have not heard and do not know the real salvation Christ secured - this includes self deluded Christians - this follows except that it has been allowed for and we would need to be saved in spite of ourselves imho - twinc

the Creator and Judge has the undisputed right to chose and not chose who shall be saved.


Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

the Creator and Judge of all things may do as He pleases to and with anything He has created, it is the devil that thinks he is entitled anything other than God's Judgement of what is good for His creation. similar to the thinking you put forth there twinc. it is obvious you argue for entitlement.

as far as world saved I don't remember any statement of the whole world all souls would be saved. what is restored is restored unto God as God choses. hence He choses the believer and all who seek Him, and that will and can be done.

one forgets that this is how it was in the days of Noah:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

that was before the flood and then after the flood


Gen_8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


hence not God's choice for man.

if a farmer gets a field full of unproductive crop he plows it under, and the Lord Jesus never implied the world would be saved, but those in the world could be saved. if some one hasn't heard I guess they weren't chosen.

 

[Peanut]

Does, all, as it appears in new testament scripture mean, all?

[Sic]..."Universalists find scriptural support primarily in Paul’s writings where he declares, for example, that “as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men” (Rom 5:18), and, “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Rom. 11:32). In 1 Corinthians 15:22, Paul says that in Adam all die and in Christ all are made alive." (Source)

 

[Job]

Does, all, as it appears in new testament scripture mean, all?

Yes, I believe it does.

2 Thessalonians 2
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Revelation 13
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

m

 

[Peanut]

Very well then.
What of this observation in the article linked prior?
[Sic]"....Jesus’ words about punishment are interpreted differently than in the traditional view. For example, when He spoke of separating people at the final judgment as the shepherd separates the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31-46), He was speaking of what would be the case if people didn’t receive the saving grace of God in Christ; He was speaking metaphorically to make a point. Jesus’ warnings about eternal punishment are also modified by interpreting the word typically translated “eternal” as meaning an age with a beginning and an end (e.g., Matt. 25:46). "
Source

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

1Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Helen]

But, to say this determines forever our relationship with the Lord gives no room for a growing relationship when we get there. And I do believe we will continue to grow in that as well as in knowledge and other things.

I do have the opinion that we will take off there where we left off here in our relationship with the Lord. And then improve and grow from there.

Just a question. You mention that you believe that (there is love and grace enough) that we aren't just stuck at the level of the relationship we have with God when we leave here...*Yet you don't feel that (there is love and grace enough) those who get the shock of their (life) death, when on Judgement Day, they finally see the Lord in all His glory..and every knee does bow and they all confess Him as Lord." ?
See that is where I get stuck...
Hey, maybe I am totally wrong, and God is not who I believe Him to be.
When I get there I will just have to knowledge...that I attributed too much love and grace to Him.

Like I told you, I don't discuss this much , I used to, but I just don't bother any more. Mainly because it seems like a red rag to a bull with some people.
Whenever it used to come up, (When I was face to face with them in life)
I used to ask. "So, which part of the Love of God do you so strongly object to?"
be blessed...

 

[Job]

Very well then.
What of this observation in the article linked prior?
[Sic]"....Jesus’ words about punishment are interpreted differently than in the traditional view. For example, when He spoke of separating people at the final judgment as the shepherd separates the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31-46), He was speaking of what would be the case if people didn’t receive the saving grace of God in Christ; He was speaking metaphorically to make a point. Jesus’ warnings about eternal punishment are also modified by interpreting the word typically translated “eternal” as meaning an age with a beginning and an end (e.g., Matt. 25:46). "
Source

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

That passage from Matthew is the opposite of Universalism.

 

[Peanut]

That passage from Matthew is the opposite of Universalism.

If you read the article linked they have a very good explanation in my view of that passage application to Universalism. As a hypothetical. From the article. Some has been excerpted and posted already. The part pertaining to my present observation is in bold. [Sic] "...Universalists find scriptural support primarily in Paul’s writings where he declares, for example, that “as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men” (Rom 5:18), and, “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Rom. 11:32). In 1 Corinthians 15:22, Paul says that in Adam all die and in Christ all are made alive. Jesus’ words about punishment are interpreted differently than in the traditional view. For example, when He spoke of separating people at the final judgment as the shepherd separates the sheep and the goats (Matt. 25:31-46), He was speaking of what would be the case if people didn’t receive the saving grace of God in Christ; He was speaking metaphorically to make a point. Jesus’ warnings about eternal punishment are also modified by interpreting the word typically translated “eternal” as meaning an age with a beginning and an end (e.g., Matt. 25:46). The necessity of postmortem salvation is inferred from all this, and support is drawn for that from 1 Peter and Revelation.

 

[Stranger]

Just a question. You mention that you believe that (there is love and grace enough) that we aren't just stuck at the level of the relationship we have with God when we leave here...*Yet you don't feel that (there is love and grace enough) those who get the shock of their (life) death, when on Judgement Day, they finally see the Lord in all His glory..and every knee does bow and they all confess Him as Lord." ?
See that is where I get stuck...
Hey, maybe I am totally wrong, and God is not who I believe Him to be.
When I get there I will just have to knowledge...that I attributed too much love and grace to Him.

Like I told you, I don't discuss this much , I used to, but I just don't bother any more. Mainly because it seems like a red rag to a bull with some people.
Whenever it used to come up, (When I was face to face with them in life)
I used to ask. "So, which part of the Love of God do you so strongly object to?"
be blessed...

I don't object to any part of the love of God.

You however are hoping God will be an unrighteous God. You are hoping his love will ignore His righteousness and allow those to be saved who have never come to Christ...who have rejected Jesus Christ.

And, concerning the question I asked you, Do you think the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was a light thing for God? How could a God of love come up with such a plan? But He did. Because that is the only way that would work. That is the only way in which you or I could go to heaven and God be just in allowing us there. (Rom. 3:26) "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."

God can justify, but He must be just in so doing. His righteousness demands it. He cannot change. Your hoping He will change. Which means if He does, then He is no longer righteous in allowing those who reject Jesus Christ into eternal life. And if He does change, then you and I have no confidence or security in our salvation. Because if He changes for that, who knows how else He may change later.

So, my question to you is, do you want the God who is just and the justifier of him who believes. Or do you want the God who is unjust and loving and so allows all into eternal life whether they have accepted Christ or not?

Stranger