Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.

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BloodBought 1953

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Would God not open the hearts of anyone we pray for? Would He not send good Christians across the path's of those we pray this for? Still their decision (most important of ones life!)



I hope this is the case .....I would “ Bet” that that is the case, but I have no Scripture to prove it ......
 

Stumpmaster

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Would God not open the hearts of anyone we pray for? Would He not send good Christians across the path's of those we pray this for? Still their decision (most important of ones life!)



I hope this is the case .....I would “ Bet” that that is the case, but I have no Scripture to prove it ......
According to the Parable of the Sower the effectiveness of the Word of God depends on the heart condition of the hearer.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Salvation is God’s work. God is the Savior and is the One who works this out in and on the person whom He saves. As to how God works out and accomplishes His salvation, is told us in scriptures. It is clear to me, God does it through faith. Not through faith that comes from man, but through faith that comes from Him.
On that basis then, an unsaved person is condemned on Judgment Day solely because God didn't provide them with faith.

Yuk!
An unsaved person is condemned because of sin, his sins.

Tong
R3893
 
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Tong2020

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According to the Parable of the Sower the effectiveness of the Word of God depends on the heart condition of the hearer.
I would say that such is not what the parable intends to show nor is the point of it.

Tong
R3894
 

Stumpmaster

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The Scriptures say that a measure of Faith has been given to every man....perhaps it is like a little flame that will put itself out if not tended to properly.....if you feed that tiny flame by blowing the “ oxygen” of God’s Word upon it, perhaps that is what takes to keep it alive and burning and gaining in strength....If one never reads God’s Word or listens to God-Chosen Teachers, that flame might just go out completely someday....it beats me....I’m just theorizing here....
Yes, only when the Word of God is agreeably heard can faith come with a fruitful result, which makes God the Author and Finisher of it, but the context in which Scripture talks about a measure of faith being given has to do with being living, holy, acceptable sacrifices available for God's Purposes, as seen in the different gifts He gives to members of the body of Christ, so that none become proud and exceed their divinely approved and allotted portion in ministry.

Rom 12:3-8 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. (4) For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, (5) so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. (6) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; (7) or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; (8) he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.
 

Stumpmaster

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I would say that such is not what the parable intends to show nor is the point of it.

Tong
R3894
Yes, well the Word of God gets snatched away by the Devil, sprouts but withers, and grows somewhat for a while but gets choked, unless it is nurtured and cultivated by those willing to be enriched by it.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
An unsaved person is condemned because of sin, his sins
Which would not be held to their account if faith in Christ had been given them.
The wages of sin is death, even to be cast in the lake of fire. If ever one is cast in the lake of fire on the appointed time, it is in no way shape or form be blamed to what God had or had not done. Rather, if any man be not cast in the lake of fire, it is God’s doing and glory.

Tong
R3896
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I would say that such is not what the parable intends to show nor is the point of it.
Yes, well the Word of God gets snatched away by the Devil, sprouts but withers, and grows somewhat for a while but gets choked, unless it is nurtured and cultivated by those willing to be enriched by it.
What do you know the parables were about?

Tong
R3897
 

Ferris Bueller

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On that basis then, an unsaved person is condemned on Judgment Day solely because God didn't provide them with faith.

Yuk!
I agree, Yuk!

Unsaved people are condemned because they rejected the faith God provided them through the testimony of the Holy Spirit about Jesus....

"Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." 1 John 5:10​

Faith comes by hearing the word of the gospel. A person is free to retain the faith they receive through the word about Christ and believe and be saved, or they can reject it and not be saved. Most choose to reject it. Only a few accept it and are saved.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Since faith is a gift, it is more of a substance...
We respond to things according to how much faith we have.
...I don't think of it as a verb, it is a noun.
That's right, faith is a thing. It's the supernatural ability to know that something you can't see really is true. Through the message of the gospel, God gives a person this gracious gift of knowing that the gospel really is true so they can then choose whether or not to accept it or reject it. That's why he is Just in condemning those who reject it. They knew it was true because he showed them it was true, but they chose to reject it. Most people will reject what the Holy Spirit shows them is true about Jesus. Only a few will retain the truth they hear and be saved. Many are called, but few are chosen.
 
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Nancy

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John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jesus speaks and refers to a people who consist of “All that the Father gives Me”. And that these people are they who will come to Him (Jesus Christ).

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


In other words, concerning coming to Jesus, this is the truth of that matter, that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. That is what He said to the great multitude who followed Him in Capernaum.

That truth even became even clearer in what transpired there after that have Jesus pointing to this to them in the following passage.


John 6:65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

It is clear to me that coming to Jesus is not something that any and all man could just do at will.


Just wanted to share that to you.

Tong
R3891

So then, praying for someone to have ears to hear, and eyes to see and a softened heart is something we are wasting our time praying for then? Why the "big commission" then? Should we all just sit back and wait for them all to just "irresistibly" run into a church for no reason they understand?
Thanks for the verses, heard the arguments and the same verses over and over again but, just cannot and will not stop praying for those on my heart.
God bless
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Jesus speaks and refers to a people who consist of “All that the Father gives Me”. And that these people are they who will come to Him (Jesus Christ).

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

In other words, concerning coming to Jesus, this is the truth of that matter, that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. That is what He said to the great multitude who followed Him in Capernaum.

That truth even became even clearer in what transpired there after that have Jesus pointing to this to them in the following passage.

John 6:65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

It is clear to me that coming to Jesus is not something that any and all man could just do at will.

Just wanted to share that to you.
So then, praying for someone to have ears to hear, and eyes to see and a softened heart is something we are wasting our time praying for then? Why the "big commission" then? Should we all just sit back and wait for them all to just "irresistibly" run into a church for no reason they understand?
Thanks for the verses, heard the arguments and the same verses over and over again but, just cannot and will not stop praying for those on my heart.
God bless
I am not sure how those passages would lead one to those questions, if not conclusions.

I just shared to you the said scriptures and have shared to you my reading of them. What is your reading of said scriptures?

Tong
R3897
 
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ChristisGod

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“ NOBODY comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”

The initiative for Salvation belongs to God....

Read the story of “Lydia, the Seller Of Purple”......God “Opened Her Heart” to Receive the Gospel....
The OP doesn't understand grace he merits his salvation which is the opposite of grace. By grace we have been save and that no of yourselves- it is the GIFT of God. So the OP is boasting in his faith that came from himself.

God by His grace even grants us repentance.

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

And it is by Gods grace that He has granted us to believe in Him.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

And it is by Gods grace and Mercy that we are born again. God caused the new birth, not our faith.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And we receive nothing apart from Gods grace

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."




hope this helps !!!
 

ChristisGod

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@Curtis

Mans inability to come to God apart from Him

John 3:19, "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

John 8:34, "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Romans 3:10-12, "as it is written, ‘There is none righteous, not even one; 11 There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one.’"

Romans 6:20, "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

Romans 8:7, "because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so."

1 Corinthians 2:14, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."

Ephesians 2:1, "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins."

Ephesians 2:3, "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."


God must enable man to come to Him. It is the work of God !

John 1:12-13, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 6:28-29, "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' 29 Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.'"

Acts 13:48, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 8:29–30, “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love."

Ephesians 1:5, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

Ephesians 1:11, "also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."

Philippians 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

2 Timothy 2:24-25, "The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth."

1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

The Lord saves us and keeps us saved by His Grace

Faith comes by Gods grace as per:

Ephesians 2:8. Faith alone means apart from works , not grace. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Philippians 1:29- "For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake."

John 1:13- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Salvation is of the Lord. Its all His doing by His grace, even being granted by God the ability to believe. Our human decision to come to Christ comes from God, not by human decision but born of God.

God saves us and keeps us saved.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Philippians 1:6-
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.NLT

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will sustain you to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

God Grants Repentance

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,


hope this helps !!!
 

Ferris Bueller

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We are not condemned because of unbelief, though every unbeliever is condemned. We are condemned by our sin:

"...death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." Romans 5:12

"...the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

The condemnation of sin came first, then the choice of whether to believe or not believe.
 

Ferris Bueller

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The OP doesn't understand grace he merits his salvation which is the opposite of grace. By grace we have been save and that no of yourselves- it is the GIFT of God. So the OP is boasting in his faith that came from himself.

God by His grace even grants us repentance.

Acts 5:31
God exalted Him to His right hand as Prince and Savior, in order to grant repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:8
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

And it is by Gods grace that He has granted us to believe in Him.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him,

And it is by Gods grace and Mercy that we are born again. God caused the new birth, not our faith.

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And we receive nothing apart from Gods grace

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

2 Timothy 1:9, "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."




hope this helps !!!
I think his point is that the grace of salvation itself is not given before the grace of faith is given.
 

marks

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How can that possibly be misunderstood to the point of stating it backwards, and claim that grace comes first, because faith is our response TO grace?

Faith always comes first. It’s how we get to grace, how we access grace , as is very evident just from Ephesians 2:8-9 alone - but surely someone that said they’ve spent years reading the Bible all day long, would have come across the corroborating scriptures that reinforce the obvious fact that faith comes first, thus cant possibly come from a response TO grace.

For myself, I see God's common grace to all, in upholding creation for us, and providing for our needs. I see God's grace in saving us, forgiving our sins. And I see what I understand as "Prevenient Grace", that is, the grace to allow us to perceive the truth about Him, and our need for Him, and the grace to enable us to trust Him.

Titus 2:11-14 KJV
11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

I see a grace from God given in allowing us the opportunity to come to faith through choosing to believe. I don't think we are able to understand and believe in His gift without a supernatural something from God.

Romans 12:3 KJV
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I don't think natural man can understand the things of God unless the Holy Spirit reveal them. I don't think the natural man can trust God unless the Holy Spirit supply that faith.

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 2:3-4 KJV
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

To me, this is grace.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Grace is grace. There is no different types of unmerited favor. What God's grace does in a person's life may be different, but they are all acts of God's grace.

Faith is included in all of God's callings to people of the world. All who are called know that what God is calling them to is true, because God is showing them it's true. It's just that most people reject that call, calling him a liar, preferring to stay in their sin. Most people will reject the faith that God gives to know that what he is calling them to is really true. Only a few will retain the faith God gives and receive salvation.

Hebrews 4:2 KJV
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Not so much in "retaining faith", I think, rather, mixing it with the word, that is, applying faith, believing God.

Much love!