My way of thinking of this is that God provides the faith sufficient for us to make a choice. We can choose to believe Him, or to not. And whether or not we have a Bible, I still think God has ways to reach us.
Much love!
Up is down. Black is white. Grace precedes faith.
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My way of thinking of this is that God provides the faith sufficient for us to make a choice. We can choose to believe Him, or to not. And whether or not we have a Bible, I still think God has ways to reach us.
Much love!
No, don't stop praying! That parable of the unjust judge, "that men would pray always, without fainting".
The answer to your question would be that "God intends the preaching of one man to be the instrument by which He awakens faith in another". But I'm with you, "the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men".
Much love!
Death is one thing . . . condemnation is another.
All died because all sinned, but sin is not imputed when there is no Law.
Sin kills, so they died. But those sins that killed them were not posted to their account. Not imputed.
John 3:18 KJV
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Much love!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You butchered this one my friend .
Look closely at what ferris is saying .
Here is how it can be answered real simple .
WHAT is the only condmenation one has .........
WHY will one die in their sins ................
JESUS already had an answer for this statement that ferris made .
THE ONLY CONDEMNATION ONE HAS .................IS THEY WONT COME TO THE LIGHT , TO JESUS .
And
JESUS said , I said ye shall DIE IN YOUR SIN . Because IF you believe not that I AM HE , YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS .
THERE IS YOUR ANSWER MY FRIEND .
FERRIS is right on much things . BUT this is how i would have answered ferris .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You may want to revisit what I was saying.
Sin kills. But if we die in Christ, we can still live, not condemned. Before the Law, sin killed, but did not condemn, because there wasn't Law. Romans 4 something says that without Law, there is no transgression. Sin kills, but Law condemns.
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Where is the proof we have died in Christ . Its in the scriptures my friend .
But please explain what you think about this . WHERE is the PROOF that one has indeed DIED IN CHRIST .
Its gonna knock false hyper grace right out the front and back door .
A hint , its in romans .
Many folks are not following Christ . Many are name only my friend .
Many . The number , i myself could not even count , nor do i want to dwell on it .
It rips my heart what many folks have done to the gospel . I sorrow greatly for them .
But folks do what they love .
What is the proof that one has truly died in Christ .
The proof? To whom? God already sees what is real, so He knows. We have the testimony inside us, though it can take us some time, sometimes, to come to see that. Essentially, a changed heart, and the knowledge of God, I think. Others, they see what we are like and form their opinions.
Much love!
no you've got it in error
read the bible the first place grace is mentioned is with Noah then there is the man of faith Abraham. grace is first, grace is favor and without God's favor no repentance is accepted at all, and repentance is required. faith is merely belief and trust and the devil believes what God says and trusts it will happen, but he doesn't have God's grace (favor) no matter what the devil believes or trusts or even if the devil would try to repent. read the book of Enoch.
so grace is required first, before repentance is accepted. without the grace of God in man's case faith is irrelevant. but because the children of Noah can find grace in God's sight, salvation through faith is posable.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
A changed heart is right .
We are no longer the old man . we no longer justify our evil deeds .
If any man has not the SPIRIT of CHRIST HE is NONE OF HIS .
AND if we have the SPIRIT then the body is dead because of sins . WE WOULD NO LONGER LOVE SIN
WE would love what GOD loves . WE would love that which is holy ,righteous and true . AND SIN AINT .
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Tong2020 said: ↑
John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. <--- My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)
"All that the Father gives Me..." <---- Does the Father give Him any who He knows will not receive the Gospel? I would say to this scripture that when Christ was raised up, He drew ALL men unto Him as, His work on this earth was finished and, the door was opened to any, all, whomsoever...
John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did Jesus not say that He would draw ALL men unto Him when He be lifted up? God knows those who will follow Him and those who won't so, those, I would think are the ones who will refuse Him till their dying day so...no, God would not send those to Christ.
In other words, concerning coming to Jesus, this is the truth of that matter, that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him”. That is what He said to the great multitude who followed Him in.Capernaum.<---see above..
That truth even became even clearer in what transpired there after that have Jesus pointing to this to them in the following passage.
John 6:65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” see above.
It is clear to me that coming to Jesus is not something that any and all man could just do at will.<--- If it is not Gods will that ANY should perish, then it cannot be His will to damn some to Hell at the foundation of the world. That kind of contradicts His character...?
Just wanted to share that to you.
Thank you brother, I do see where you are coming from, just can't agree as, I see it differently.
God Bless
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
And faith comes from hearing the word of God - Romans 10:17 - not from first being regenerated as one of the few elect, (and thus saved and given grace) before belief - but simply from hearing the word of God.
Then we have to make our calling and ELECTION sure, by choosing to ADD to our faith the fruit that includes virtue and Godliness (living righteously) so that IF WE DO THOSE THINGS we won’t FALL and will be given entrance into heaven, per the apostle Peter - which absolutely falsifies the fatalist philosophy of determinism aka Calvinist reformed dogma.
There is no irresistible predetermined salvation of the lucky few elect, and predetermined reprobation of the rest of humanity.
Thank God.
Jesus lost one of those given Him by the father, JUDAS.
Jesus also said, If I be lifted uo (on the cross) I WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.
Israel was Gods own ELECT, and Jesus came originally ONLY for them, who were His OWN chosen people, thus the Holy Spirit was working in them to give them faith and draw them to Him, but per Stephen, who told them that the reason they not only killed the prophets God sent them, but also rejected their own Messiah and savior Jesus - and killed Him TOO, is because they always RESISTED THE HOLY SPIRIT.
That the elect can refuse salvation and reject Jesus by resisting the Holy Spirit, is fatal to Calvinist reformed dogma.
I covered all that in depth in an earlier post.
So there’s either a serious contradiction in scripture, or the interpretation of the Calvinist proof texts is wrong.
Just one great example of that is found in John 17: 9 which is used to prove that Jesus prays only for the elect, but not for the rest of the world:
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
This example shows how Calvinist reformed election doctrine is inferred into their proof texts, because simply reading all of Jesus’ prayer shows that Jesus was praying before His ascension to heaven, specifically just for His apostles in verse 9, because He then expands His prayer beyond the 12, to include everyone who believes the words they would preach:
Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Thus John 17:9 is refuted as one of their constantly used proof texts to prove limited atonement by Jesus.
Maranatha
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All you did was repeat exactly what I said, only jumbled up.
Faith can’t be a response to grace, because faith has to come first, since faith is how we access grace.
Therefore faith precedes salvation (grace), Instead of salvation (grace) preceding faith.
Grace is the response to faith, and not the cause of it.
But Calvinism is forced by their dogma to state it backwards, because regeneration must precede faith in their warped theology.
Shalom
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Over the years I have discovered that many in congregations whose denominational constitutions embrace Reformed or Calvinist doctrine are not aware of it and are oblivious to its implications.
They have smart buildings and well-kept properties, their meetings are well attended and services are decent and orderly, and their people are gracious and eager to be friendly, until their dogma is challenged.
Wisdom required.
Yes, apparently we read and see the passages differently. There will come a time that will change with us seeing the same. And since presently we see differently, with others seeing as you do and others seeing as I do, that we have such kind of discussions, hoping that we all would come to the truth and be one in the truth, to the glory of our God and Savior.
On John 6:37, you said “ My take on this is that God gives all men a measure of faith (Romans 12:3)“.
With me, I don’t see that in John 6:37. Even in Romans 12:3, Paul was not referring there to each and every man.
You said “All that the Father gives Me..." <---- Does the Father give Him any who He knows will not receive the Gospel? I would say to this scripture that when Christ was raised up, He drew ALL men unto Him as, His work on this earth was finished and, the door was opened to any, all, whomsoever...”
Well, John 6:37 plainly says “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,”. Now, in my reading of scriptures and the reality I see, is that not all, that is, each and every man, come to Jesus.
I think you are referring to John 12:32. If the drawing there involves each and every man, that would make each and every man as can come to Jesus, considering what Jesus said in John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him…” and would run against the words of Jesus in John 6:65, “…. no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”.
You said “If it is not Gods will that ANY should perish, then it cannot be His will to damn some to Hell at the foundation of the world. That kind of contradicts His character...?”
While we read in scriptures concerning God’s desire that any should perish, it is not conclusive to me, that none will. In fact, the truth is that many will perish. And that truth does not at all tell us that He desired to damn them in Hell, not at the foundation of the world nor any time later.
My view is that men will go to hell because of sin, their sins. And whoever will not go to hell and will instead go to heaven is because of God’s grace, that is, salvation. Now grace is not something that depends on anything concerning the man, nor is it something that could be worked on to attain or have as a wage. It is something that God gives according to the counsel of His will.
Tong
R3900
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