Upon THIS Rock I will build my Church

[ScottA]

Where do you get this crazy idea we follow Peter? Do you "follow Peter" by reading 1st and 2nd Peter? How many recent declarations from the Chair of Peter are you even aware of??? Try picking on the encyclicals taught in the last 100 years, instead of the same boring rhetorical arguments from the 16th century that have been refuted a zillion times.

It doesn't matter whether you are Catholic or Protestant, having an intermediary between you and Jesus besides the Holy Spirit...is not biblical. There is no refuting it. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

The "funny hats" started in the 11th century. Should we throw away 1000 years of customs to appease 21st century ethnocentric, white Anglo-Saxon American Protestants whose nonDenoms are Division with a capital D are divided into individualistic segments??? Would burning all the funny hats make them happy?

"Throw away?" - You should "pluck your eye out" if it causes you to sin!

How about you provide a verse that exempts Christians from having bishops.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

Can heaven bind an error??? Your problem is extracting the Holy Spirit from the Church. You have some wacky perceptions of the Church and the papacy that I cannot change in one post.
When you say, "follow Peter", you mean follow the bumbling idiot. When I say "follow Peter", I mean accept the teachings on faith and morals, binding on the Universal Church, declared from the Chair of Peter, and free of error. Why is it that nobody ever attacks the Catholic Church's teachings on morality?

• Divini Redemptoris (On Atheistic Communism)Pope Pius XI, March 19, 1937
• Humanae Vitae (On the Regulation of Human Births) Pope Paul VI, July 25, 1968
• Laudato si': (Praise be to you - On Care For Our Common Home) - Encyclical, Pope Francis - (May 24, 2015)[ Arabic- English- French- German- Italian- Polish- Portuguese- Spanish ]
• Evangelii Gaudium: Apostolic Exhortation on the Proclamation of the Gospel in Today's World (24 November 2013)

• Good works verses hypocrisy is another matter. Perhaps another time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It wasn't a game. It was a mistake and then a lie on your part. Then when your 'falsehood' was revealed you cry 'semantics'. Please.

You gave nothing regarding Adam and Eve.

Stranger

Correct, Einstein.

I never gave you anything regarding Adam and Eve. I was talking about ABRAHAM and Eve – and I proved you WRONG that neither of them “acknowledged” the things that were written about that.

Eve never “acknowledged” that she was “Mother of ALL the loving”.
Abraham never “acknowledged” that he was “Father of a multitude of nations”.

That was YOUR lie because you were attempting to force a different standard ono Peter – that he shouldhave “acknowledged” his primacy in Scripture.

WHY is that??
Why does Peter have to “acknowledge” this when neither Eve nor Abraham did??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Chapter and verse.

Again, you are not paying attention as usual. The James that was killed in (Acts 12) is not the James who became leader of the Jerusalem church.

Stranger

And according to the Epistle of Clement, we read that ALL of the Apostles provided for the appointment of their successors:

“Through countryside and city the apostles preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not sure who Jack Chick is...but, no, you have not shown that Jesus transferred His own authority unto Peter. You have only shown how you wrongly interpret it.

You are not properly representing all of scripture, only part, that part which suits you. Jesus did not call Peter aside or call a meeting and give Peter a promotion above the work of the Holy Spirit. But rather, He used Peter to make His own point about how He would build His church, by fishing for comments among His disciples...and Peter, by the spirit of God, helped facilitate that point. But anyone who takes that exchange to mean Peter was given more authority than the Holy Spirit, who was given none...has simply missed the point of Jesus' exchange and revelation.

Thus, the best that can be said or claimed, is that Christ alone has all authority, and yet uses the works of the Holy Spirit among the saints to whom Christ has sent Him.

"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

Why are all of your responses so dishonest??

I NEVER stated that Peter has Authority that the Holy Spirit didn’t have – nor does the Church teach this.
I stated plainly that Jesus gave Peter Primacy over the others. This can be shown no just by Matt. 16:18 – but by several passages . . .

Jesus tells Peter that He is praying for him ALONE to strengthen the others after He is gone (Luke 22:31-32).

After Jesus is risen – He asks Peter and Peter ALONE to Feed His Lambs, Tend His Flock and Feed His Sheep (John 21:15-19). This threefold commission reflects Peter’s 3 denials – but He ONLY asks Peter to do this. His Flock incudes EVERYBODY, including the rest of the Apostles.

Peter is called "First" (Protos) (Matt. 10:2)- even though he is NOT the first Apostle chosen by Jesus.

Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of Twelve combined are only mentioned 130 times.

Matt. 16:19 - ONLY Peter receives the keys, which represent AUTHORITY (see Isaiah 22) over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

And the list goes on . . .

 

[epostle]

Thus, the best that can be said or claimed, is that Christ alone has all authority, and yet uses the works of the Holy Spirit among the saints to whom Christ has sent Him.
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus."

Christ alone has all authority, and has all authority to give his authority to sinful human beings to baptize and teach.
Jesus is the one Mediator BECAUSE He is both God and man. To say we think the pope is a mediator between God and man is another anti-Catholic straw man fallacy. This mis-perception leads to re-defining "binding and loosing" into modernist definitions.

 

[Stranger]

Correct, Einstein.

I never gave you anything regarding Adam and Eve. I was talking about ABRAHAM and Eve – and I proved you WRONG that neither of them “acknowledged” the things that were written about that.

Eve never “acknowledged” that she was “Mother of ALL the loving”.
Abraham never “acknowledged” that he was “Father of a multitude of nations”.

That was YOUR lie because you were attempting to force a different standard ono Peter – that he shouldhave “acknowledged” his primacy in Scripture.

WHY is that??
Why does Peter have to “acknowledge” this when neither Eve nor Abraham did??

Where does the statement that Eve shall be mother of all living come from, Einstein? Who said it?

In your post (#164) you clearly made the gross error of not knowing James of (Acts 12) was not the same as James who was the Lord's brother and leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Now you do. What a revelation that was...right? Something most of us Protestants learned by 4th grade Sunday School. No need to thank me.

In your post (#149) you are caught in a lie about what I 'originally' said. I called you on it and then you reply that 'claim' and 'acknowledge' are the same thing. (#163)

Concerning James who was martyred in (Acts 12) I said there was no successor. Then you go on a rant in post (#164) about Eusebius saying Peter appointed James Bishop of Jerusalem. This showed you didn't know the difference between James of (Acts 12) who was one of the disciples and James the head of the Jerusalem Church who was the Lords brother. And it took several reminders from me before it sunk into that papacy eaten brain of yours that there was a difference.

So, you were caught in a lie, and caught being very ignorant. Instead of repenting in sackcloth and ashes, and admitting your lie and ignorance, you come back with bombastic statements hoping that no one else caught it. But they did. I sure did. You are both a liar and ignorant of Scripture. You, are a true representative of the Roman papacy.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

And according to the Epistle of Clement, we read that ALL of the Apostles provided for the appointment of their successors:

“Through countryside and city the apostles preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

The statement of Clements doesn't hide your ignorance of James of (Acts 12) and James the Lords brother and head of the Jerusalem Church.

And Clements ain't Scripture.

Stranger

 

[epostle]

James, which ever one you like, did not appoint himself as head of the Jerusalem Church. There is nothing in Scripture that grants James the function of universal jurisdiction, his authority was to his own diocese. In Acts 12, James (which ever one you like) was killed with a sword. Peter was arrested and rescued by an angel. Without saying it, you want Peter to have been killed by a sword, and James to have been rescued by an angel.
I gave you the successors of James. None of them were Popes because James had his own chair, not the Chair of Peter.
We know that Clement ain't scripture. None of the ECF are inspired. But you don't like Clement because you have nothing to do with the Church of 80 A.D.
Was 80 the year of the so called "falling away"? Better compare with the other epistles Clement wrote and make sure he is not the anti-Christ.

 

[brakelite]

Peter is called "First" (Protos) (Matt. 10:2)- even though he is NOT the first Apostle chosen by Jesus.

The scripture says, first Peter, and Andrew etc. The scripture doors not say first Peter, then in order of rank, Andrew etc,etc. All 12 were first.

Jesus tells Peter that He is praying for him ALONE to strengthen the others after He is gone (Luke 22:31-32).

After Jesus is risen – He asks Peter and Peter ALONE to Feed His Lambs, Tend His Flock and Feed His Sheep (John 21:15-19). This threefold commission reflects Peter’s 3 denials – but He ONLY asks Peter to do this. His Flock incudes EVERYBODY, including the rest of the Apostles.

Jesus spoke to Peter alone because Peter was the one apostle of them all that needed special attention because of his many faults. And despite those faults, Jesus chose him as an apostle. Jesus was not singling Peter out in order to make him greater in rank or privilege.

Twelve combined are only mentioned 130 times.

the Bible if anything is honest. Peter is mentioned so much more because of his big mouth and the big foot he kept trying to put in that big mouth.

 

[Taken]

Upon "THIS" Rock.....I will build my Church -

"This" Rock Is the Revelation of Knowledge And Understanding..."Jesus IS Thee Christ."

"I" ... "IS" Jesus

"Build" ... "IS" the effect of men being Converted, by believing And committing By Trusting the Knowledge and Understanding Jesus "IS" the Christ.

"My" is Christ.

Thee "ROCK" ... / Foundation Is "God" "upon" which All "Good" things Are Built.

All the Disciples were gathered with Jesus.
Simon was "First" to receive the Understanding from God "That" Jesus IS the Christ.
Immediately, the others received the same Understanding.

Upon "THIS ROCK" is all about Understanding Jesus IS Thee Christ, Thee Rock, Thee God.

Deut 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:
For all his ways are judgement:
A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[ScottA]

Why are all of your responses so dishonest??

I NEVER stated that Peter has Authority that the Holy Spirit didn’t have – nor does the Church teach this.
I stated plainly that Jesus gave Peter Primacy over the others. This can be shown no just by Matt. 16:18 – but by several passages . . .

Jesus tells Peter that He is praying for him ALONE to strengthen the others after He is gone (Luke 22:31-32).

After Jesus is risen – He asks Peter and Peter ALONE to Feed His Lambs, Tend His Flock and Feed His Sheep (John 21:15-19). This threefold commission reflects Peter’s 3 denials – but He ONLY asks Peter to do this. His Flock incudes EVERYBODY, including the rest of the Apostles.

Peter is called "First" (Protos) (Matt. 10:2)- even though he is NOT the first Apostle chosen by Jesus.

Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of Twelve combined are only mentioned 130 times.

Matt. 16:19 - ONLY Peter receives the keys, which represent AUTHORITY (see Isaiah 22) over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

And the list goes on . . .

I have been nothing but honest.

But here after denying that you made claims of Peter...you go on and on making still more claims of Peter until you finally break it off saying "the list goes on..." And of course it does, because Peter is a big part of Jesus' ministry, and he ours. But it is now you going on and on that is the problem - because you have not just taken that path giving Peter all the credit that Jesus said was not attributed to him, but to the Father...you also go on to usurp the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent, to whom Jesus did not even give authority of His own. You have given Peter rank over the Holy Spirit - which is blasphemy.

According to the whole of scripture, all authority is Christ's alone.

But this is not about the Catholics or the Protestants either, which is your pet peeve. This entire subject is about Jesus building His church by the spirit, a new spiritual house. Which is not limited to misguided hierarchies among the body - for there is One Head and one body. But rather, it is the spirit of God being poured out upon all people - wherein, those who answer the call when Jesus knocks at the door in spirit, He comes in, and to each, to live is Christ. This is the reign of Christ upon the earth as King of kings over His kings and priests, until the end.

Put your pet peeve aside, lest you be left without.

 

[ScottA]

Christ alone has all authority, and has all authority to give his authority to sinful human beings to baptize and teach.
Jesus is the one Mediator BECAUSE He is both God and man. To say we think the pope is a mediator between God and man is another anti-Catholic straw man fallacy. This mis-perception leads to re-defining "binding and loosing" into modernist definitions.

Perhaps you weren't paying attention or were blinded by your own anti-whatever pet peeve, but I quoted the same scripture ("For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.") for both Catholics and Protestants.

Nonetheless, both have manufactured a non-biblical hierarchy among leadership in the church, misrepresenting the so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to be under or acting in the authority of Christ, but quite another to claim it. Although they have champion it, this error is not limited to the Catholics.

The church has One Head and one body. A servant is not higher than his Master. Nor is one servant higher than his brother, and none among the body have more authority than the Holy Spirit, to whom Christ gave none.

 

[epostle]

Perhaps you weren't paying attention or were blinded by your own anti-whatever pet peeve, but I quoted the same scripture ("For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.") for both Catholics and Protestants.

Nonetheless, both have manufactured a non-biblical hierarchy among leadership in the church, misrepresenting the so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit. It is one thing to be under or acting in the authority of Christ, but quite another to claim it. Although they have champion it, this error is not limited to the Catholics.

The church has One Head and one body. A servant is not higher than his Master. Nor is one servant higher than his brother, and none among the body have more authority than the Holy Spirit, to whom Christ gave none.

Like I said before, you don't need nor do you have bishops contrary to the numerous mentions in Scripture. You limit Christ's authority by denying the authority He gives to Peter and the Apostles.
"Nonetheless, both have manufactured a non-biblical hierarchy among leadership in the church, misrepresenting the so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit" is a lie, a straw man fallacy, and an insult. Evidently, you don't understand the meaning of "authority" and appear to flatly reject Matthew 28:18-20. Nor do you understand what "infallibility" means, because all sola scripturists have a mental block that prevents them from understating it. I could post walls and walls of explanations but you still won't get it.

VI. The Church is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 – Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests – all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.

34. The absence of the idea of submission to spiritual authority in Protestantism has leaked over into the civic arena, where the ideas of personal "freedom," "rights," and "choice" now dominate to such an extent that civic duty, communitarianism, and discipline are tragically neglected, to the detriment of a healthy society.

150 Reasons why I am Catholic by Dave Armstrong ::

 

[ScottA]

Like I said before, you don't need nor do you have bishops contrary to the numerous mentions in Scripture. You limit Christ's authority by denying the authority He gives to Peter and the Apostles.
"Nonetheless, both have manufactured a non-biblical hierarchy among leadership in the church, misrepresenting the so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit" is a lie, a straw man fallacy, and an insult. Evidently, you don't understand the meaning of "authority" and appear to flatly reject Matthew 28:18-20. Nor do you understand what "infallibility" means, because all sola scripturists have a mental block that prevents them from understating it. I could post walls and walls of explanations but you still won't get it.

VI. The Church is Hierarchical
Matt. 16:18; 18:18 – Jesus uses the word “ecclesia” only twice in the New Testament Scriptures, which demonstrates that Jesus intended a visible, unified, hierarchical, and authoritative Church.

Acts 20:17,28 – Paul refers to both the elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) and the bishops (“episkopoi”) of the Church. Both are ordained leaders within the hierarchical structure of the Church.

1 Cor. 12:28 – God Himself appoints the various positions of authority within the Church. As a loving Father, God gives His children the freedom and authority to act with charity and justice to bring about His work of salvation.

Eph. 4:11 – the Church is hierarchical and includes apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers, all charged to build up the Church. The Church is not an invisible entity with an invisible foundation.

Phil. 1:1 – Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 – Christ’s Church has bishops (“episkopoi”) who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles.

1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 – Christ’s Church also has elders or priests (“presbyteroi”) who serve the bishops.

1 Tim. 3:8 – Christ’s Church also has deacons (“diakonoi”). Thus, Jesus Christ’s Church has a hierarchy of authority – bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to Peter and the apostles.

Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 – shows the three offices of the Old Testament priesthood
(1). high priest – Aaron (Ex. 28:1);
(2). Ministerial priests – Aaron’s sons (Ex. 19:6; 28:1); and
(3). Universal priests – Israel (Ex. 19:6).

The New Testament priesthood also has three offices:
(1) High Priest – Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1);
(2) Ministerial priests – the ordained bishops and priests (Rom. 15:16; 1 Tim. 3:1,8; 5:17; Titus 1:7); and
(3) Universal priests – all the baptized (1 Pet. 2:5,9; Rev. 1:6).

Your campaign is darkness, putting men even above the Holy Spirit (God).

I have shown you the light. But you prefer revering men.

So be it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have been nothing but honest.

But here after denying that you made claims of Peter...you go on and on making still more claims of Peter until you finally break it off saying "the list goes on..." And of course it does, because Peter is a big part of Jesus' ministry, and he ours. But it is now you going on and on that is the problem - because you have not just taken that path giving Peter all the credit that Jesus said was not attributed to him, but to the Father...you also go on to usurp the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent, to whom Jesus did not even give authority of His own. You have given Peter rank over the Holy Spirit - which is blasphemy.

According to the whole of scripture, all authority is Christ's alone.

But this is not about the Catholics or the Protestants either, which is your pet peeve. This entire subject is about Jesus building His church by the spirit, a new spiritual house. Which is not limited to misguided hierarchies among the body - for there is One Head and one body. But rather, it is the spirit of God being poured out upon all people - wherein, those who answer the call when Jesus knocks at the door in spirit, He comes in, and to each, to live is Christ. This is the reign of Christ upon the earth as King of kings over His kings and priests, until the end.
Put your pet peeve aside, lest you be left without.

And there you go being dishonest again.

NOWHERE did I even imply that Peter’s Authority usurps that of the Holy Spirit. Peter has his Authority BECAUSEof the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).

As for a “pet peeve” – I have none. Remember – it was PROTESTANTS who created the who Protestant vs. Catholic atmosphere and NOT the other way around. Remember also that it was a PROTESTANT who created this thread – and not the other way around.

I am simply responding to it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where does the statement that Eve shall be mother of all living come from, Einstein? Who said it?

In your post (#164) you clearly made the gross error of not knowing James of (Acts 12) was not the same as James who was the Lord's brother and leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Now you do. What a revelation that was...right? Something most of us Protestants learned by 4th grade Sunday School. No need to thank me.

In your post (#149) you are caught in a lie about what I 'originally' said. I called you on it and then you reply that 'claim' and 'acknowledge' are the same thing. (#163)

Concerning James who was martyred in (Acts 12) I said there was no successor. Then you go on a rant in post (#164) about Eusebius saying Peter appointed James Bishop of Jerusalem. This showed you didn't know the difference between James of (Acts 12) who was one of the disciples and James the head of the Jerusalem Church who was the Lords brother. And it took several reminders from me before it sunk into that papacy eaten brain of yours that there was a difference.

So, you were caught in a lie, and caught being very ignorant. Instead of repenting in sackcloth and ashes, and admitting your lie and ignorance, you come back with bombastic statements hoping that no one else caught it. But they did. I sure did. You are both a liar and ignorant of Scripture. You, are a true representative of the Roman papacy.

Stranger

Gen. 3:20
ADAM named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

ADAM named her Eve – NOT Ever herself. You can be dishonest about it ALL you want but your pathetic LIES just show your desperation . . .

As for James’s successor – this is nothing but a red herring to take the heat off of the fact that you have LOST this argument.

Just as Abraham was the “Rock” of Isaiah 51:1-2 – Peter is the “Rock” of Matt. 16:18” – and NONE of your whining or lying about it can change this fact.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The statement of Clements doesn't hide your ignorance of James of (Acts 12) and James the Lords brother and head of the Jerusalem Church.

And Clements ain't Scripture.
Stranger

The Epistle of Clement is an historical document. Just because it’s not Scripture doesn’t mean that it’s not historically factual. It simply means that it is not inspired.

Were you at the Boston Massacre?? How do you know it happened?? It’s NOT Scripture, right??
What an asinine understanding of history you have . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

The scripture says, first Peter, and Andrew etc. The scripture doors not say first Peter, then in order of rank, Andrew etc,etc. All 12 were first.

Jesus spoke to Peter alone because Peter was the one apostle of them all that needed special attention because of his many faults. And despite those faults, Jesus chose him as an apostle. Jesus was not singling Peter out in order to make him greater in rank or privilege.

the Bible if anything is honest. Peter is mentioned so much more because of his big mouth and the big foot he kept trying to put in that big mouth.

Then, tell me – WHY is Pater called “First” in the line-up of Apostles, hmmmmm?? Why not Andrew??
It’s because of Peter’s Primacy.

The Early Church Fathers are UNANIMOUS on this fact . . .

Clement of Alexandria
"The blessed Peter, the chosen, the PREEMNINET, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
"The Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon YOU, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to YOU the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).

The Letter of Clement to James
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Origen
"If we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things Jesus said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage
"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a SINGLE CHAIR [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and ONE CHAIR. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this UNITY OF PETER, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the CHAIR OF PETER upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, PETER, both the CHIEF OF THE APOSTLES and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]" (ibid., 17:27).

Ephraim the Syrian
"Jesus said: Simon, my follower, I have made YOU the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. YOU are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, YOU, the foundation, will condemn them. YOU are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; YOU are the chief of my disciples. Through YOU I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that,as the heir, YOU may be executor of my treasures. I have given YOU the keys of my kingdom.Behold, I have given YOU authority over all my treasures" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]).

Ambrose of Milan
"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the ROCK, thereby declaring HIM to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Pope Damasus I
The first see, therefore, is that of PETER the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome
"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself CHIEF OF THE APOSTLES, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero.(Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]).

Pope Innocent I
"In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged" (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]).

Augustine
"Among these [apostles] PETER ALONE almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]).

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed PETER?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Primacy of Peter (cont'd) . . .

Council of Ephesus
"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessednesses is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, THE HEAD OF THE APPOSTLES, is blessed PETER the apostle’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]).

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed PETER, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (ibid., session 3).

Pope Leo I
"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, and from him as from the head wishes his gifts to flow to all the body, SO THAT ANYONE WHO DARES TO SECEDE FROM PETER’S SOLID ROCK MAY UNDERSTAND THAT HE HAS NO PART OR LOT IN THE DIVINE MYSTERY. He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445).

"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, BUT IT WAS GIVEN TO ONE TO BE PREEMINENT OVER THE OTHERS. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11).

 

[Stranger]

Gen. 3:20
ADAM named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

ADAM named her Eve – NOT Ever herself. You can be dishonest about it ALL you want but your pathetic LIES just show your desperation . . .

As for James’s successor – this is nothing but a red herring to take the heat off of the fact that you have LOST this argument.

Just as Abraham was the “Rock” of Isaiah 51:1-2 – Peter is the “Rock” of Matt. 16:18” – and NONE of your whining or lying about it can change this fact.

No kidding, Eintstein. That is why I referenced Adam and Eve. Which you said you never gave anything regarding Adam and Eve. post (#182). Which once again shows your ignorance.

That you didn't know the difference between the James of (Acts 12) and the James who was head of the Church in Jerusalem is not Red Herring. It is another display of your ignorance of the Scripture. Einstein.

Concerning Abraham, now you are changing your story. Before it was Abraham never claimed or acknowledged that he was the 'father of nations'. But I showed you that he did. Now you revert to Abraham being a 'rock'. Nice dodge, Einstein. But it doesn't work.

And that there was no replacement for James, the disciple, proves there was no apostolic succession.

Now who's the liar, and pathetic, and desperate?

Stranger