ewq1938
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Of course there is. Very few even know who or what Babylon is. It is a great mystery.
US Fulfillment of Rev.17:5 and Rev.18:2
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Of course there is. Very few even know who or what Babylon is. It is a great mystery.
ewq1938
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No he doesn't. Jesus is opening the seals at the 6th seal, not going anywhere.
No, it doesn't.
The Light
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You say it all the time but don't realize you are saying it. If you look at your second to last sentence in this post, you say," I doubt the tribulation will last a year". The tribulation does not last a year, the wrath of God lasts a year. This is the whole point that you do not understand. The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. I'm sure you have heard.........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. When that occurs the wrath of God has not begun. It cannot begin until the 7th seal is opened. We are talking about two completely different time frames and yet you think, in error, that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus at Armageddon.
I'm not sure why you do not understand this.
No brother. Revelation 14 is not Rev 19.
Revelation 14 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.
Where do you get this. Revelation 14 is the harvest at the 6th seal. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.
Revelation 14 happens at the 6th seal. It is the coming of Jesus. Armageddon is over in Revelation 10-11. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Christ has set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. What you see in Revelation 19 is just a repeat of what happens at the end of the trumpets.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Revelation 14 happens at the 6th seal. There is a harvest. THEN THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. The seventh seal is opened and the trumpets begin or if you wish, the vials begin.
The tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Then the 1-year wrath of God begins. I don't think it takes one year to kill anyone off. I think that God punishes unbelievers for 1-year because that's what the Word says.
The Light
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There is a harvest at the 6th seal. Hence, there is a great multitude in heaven in Revleation 7.
Ok. How long does the wrath of God last? Please provide scriptural support.
ewq1938
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No, there isn't anything at the 6th seal except the opening of the next seal. A seal is opened and John sees something. That happens 7 times, but nothing else happens especially what John saw because all those visions are of future events.
Revelation is not in sequence so that being in the next chapter means nothing.
The bible doesn't say which means saying it lasts a year isn't something from the bible.
The Light
Well-Known Member
How do you conclude things like this? You aren't the only one, I'll say that. I've heard the seals are nothing. How can that be. The seals are the final week. They are not opened yet and will not be opened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the second harvest. Then the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means Armageddon is over and Christ has set up His kingdom.
Revelation is in sequence.......if you know what the sequence is.
Of course the Bible says, or I wouldn't post that the wrath of God lasts 1-year.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
As we can see above in Isaiah 34 that the heavens are rolled together as a scroll and the host of shall fall down as a falling fig from the fig tree. This happens at the 6th seal. See below. Additionally we see that the wrath of God is 1-year, There are other scriptures that prove this, but this should be sufficient especially since we see the events of the 6th seal before wrath.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal..........is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14. Jesus comes for the second harvest. Then the wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened and the 1st trumpet is blown.
The first harvest is the grain harvest and the second harvest is the fruit harvest.
ewq1938
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It can't be because you haven't heard they were nothing. You are changing what I said about nothing happening and turning it into "nothing" which isn't what I said. Was what Christ said in Matthew 24 "nothing"? Prophecy is not nothing.
Not even close. Everything in the passage point to Christ opening all the seals not long after ascending. That places all the seals being opened in the first century. Again, they are all prophecy of future events just like they were in Matthew 24.
None of this is true or biblical.
It's not in sequence. It's chronology jumps from one time to another very often.
It isn't related to the 6th seal or the events it describes.
Again, not something from scripture. Rev 14 has two harvests, but both are of grapes.
Timtofly
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No Scripture says God's wrath last 1 year. It would help if you posted that particular verse.
You say that Revelation 14 and 19 are not the same event, but then say they both end at the same time.
Revelation 14 is not back in the Seals. It is at the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 19 is after Satan's 42 months.
They are not the same event. Only one of them will happen. It is not the same event from different angles. If one happens, the other one will not happen. Those 42 months are not set in stone prophecy. They only happen if God tells us there are more souls to redeem. If no more souls will be redeemed, they will all be killed in Revelation 14, and there will be no 42 month extension of time.
Revelation 10-19 all talk about the 7th Trumpet and what happens within that same time frame of the 7th Trumpet. One time frame is 8 days from Sunday to Sunday (Revelation 14). The other time frame inserts 42 months into the midst of that week, and the last 3.5 days happen after the 42 months (Revelation 15-19 including the part of the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11).
The 1260 days of the 2 witnesses is the same 42 month period of the Babylonian Empire set up by Satan. That is the only time frame mentioned in the whole book lasting for 3.5 years. The same period mentioned twice in Revelation 12.
There is no time mentioned in the Seals. There is 30 minutes between the Seals and the Trumpets. There is a year, or a month, or a day, or an hour, mentioned here. This time is shortened per Matthew 24. It could be as short as 1 hour. It cannot be longer than a year.
"And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men."
This is not God's wrath. That is the second woe. No verse equates the woes with the wrath of God.
There is one other period given and that is the 5 months of the first woe. Jude 1:6 states Satan's rebel angels are loosed from the pit on that day of judgment. The 5th Trumpet is that day the angels are loosed for the 1st woe.
"And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."
This is God's wrath in Revelation 16:1.
"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."
I keep using the word tribulation for the Trumpets because you keep calling them God's wrath. So I call it tribulation even though you call it God's wrath.
The Second Coming is immediately after the tribulaiton of those days. It is not after the tribulation of the Trumpets and Thunders. It is great because of the length, the last 1993 years. It started on the day of Pentecost. Jesus says:
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
That is great tribulation they came out of in these verses:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
That has been an ongoing phenomenon since Pentecost and the tribulation of the church.
The tribulation mentioned in the first 4 Seals has not been going on for 1993 years. That is just the tail end of the church's tribulation from Pentecost until the Second Coming.
Jacob's trouble happens between the Second Coming and the AoD set up by Satan after the 7th Trumpet started to sound. The AoD splits the days of the 7th Trumpet into 2 halves. The 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem during the last half of the days of the 7th Trumpet.
Revelation 13 and 14 have nothing to do with the church and the Seals. Stop calling the Seals Jacob's trouble. Jacob's trouble cannot start until Jesus as King is sitting on His Glorious throne in Jerusalem. The Second Coming in the 6th Seal is the end of the fulness of the Gentiles. It is the end of the OT and NT church. It is the end of the tribulation of those days. The 5th Seal is the entire church body glorified in the air in front of God and the entire earth. Some have been waiting since the days of Noah post the Flood for that moment. Abraham and the whole body of faithful have been waiting for the 5th Seal. This is when Paul states this mortal puts on immortality. John says the entire church body puts on a robe of white. That is the physical body putting on the spirit, to restore the complete image of God as sons of God, soul, body, and spirit.
Jacob is still on earth waiting to be judged during the first 6 Trumpets after the 7th Seal is opened.
The 7th Trumpet is the celebration of the kingdoms on the earth under Jesus as King. It is not the church in Paradise already glorified and complete at the 5th Seal. No going back in time, but starting the Millennium immediately when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.
Unless Satan is allowed a 42 month extension of time past the deadline of the 7th Trumpet. The Millennium is put on hold. Revelation 14 is put on hold for Revelation 13. Revelation 14 is then lived out in Revelation 19 with Jesus and the Millennium Kingdom coming on white horses to take back the earth from Satan and his empire. Armageddon is the winepress that did not happen immediately 42 months prior.
You cannot have the winepress in the 6th Seal. No one would be left on earth after that point to live on the earth. The 144k are sealed after the 6th Seal, not prior to the 6th Seal. They are the firstfruits of the sheep harvested during the Trumpets. If God killed all humanity at the 6th Seal, even the 144k would be dead before the 7th Seal was opened. After the 5th Trumpet, Satan is allowed 3 woes to convince humans to follow him rather than Jesus as King. At first Satan can only torment. In the 2nd woe, Satan can kill. In the 3rd woe, Satan gets 100% control of the earth for 42 months, or not. The third woe may never happen. That is when Revelation 14 happens.
You are conflating the 7th Trumpet and God's final winepress with the Second Coming and the 6th Seal. The 7th Trumpet cannot happen prior to the 1st Trumpet. The 3rd woe cannot happen prior to the first 2 woes. The ideal scenario is that the 3rd woe never happens at all. The millennium starts before Revelation 13 can happen with the AoD set up by Satan.
But the harvest of Jacob is after the church, not part of the church's harvest.
You have been shown that Jerusalem does not fit the effects of the judgments and the descriptions found in Rev 16 - 18. For example the cities of the nations would not fall if an earthquake divided Jerusalem into three. The merchants of the earth would not cease to have anyone to buy their cargoes any longer and those who make their living by the sea are not getting wealthy by shipping goods to Jerusalem.
The Catholic church cannot have an earthquake and if the Catholic church disappeared the merchants of the earth would not cease to have anyone to buy their cargoes and those who make their living by the sea would not cease to become wealthy and weep.
The Light
Well-Known Member
That great city is Vatican City. And where do you get the idea that it has an earthquake? The destruction is not an earthquake.
Maybe it would help if you would read what merchandise is being sold.
Revelation 18
11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
And then we have this.
Revelation 18
15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
This describes Vatican City and the Catholic Church perfectly.
The things you are claiming can be proven to be incorrect.
If you insert Iraq into the effects of the judgments against Babylon the great you will see that if an earthquake split Iraq into three the cities of the nations would not fall because they are not dependent on selling the goods manufactured in them in Iraq. The cities of the nations are dependent on the goods manufactured in them being sold in the US.
Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “ It is done.” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. 19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.
All false religions can't have an earthquake that splits the idea into three and causes all of the cities of the nations to fall. If an earthquake split the US into three this would cause all of the cities of the nations to fall because their economies are dependent on the goods they manufacture being sold in the US.
Rev. 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “ It is done.” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. 19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.
The Light
Well-Known Member
The verses you are quoting where the great city is divided occurs at the very end of wrath, after Armageddon and the return of the Lord.
The verses where Babylon falls occurs before the great tribulation.
Revelation 14
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
You could not be more wrong. The scriptures below tell us the earthquake occurs while the Antichrist and the False Prophet are gathering the nations to Armageddon, which occurs at the end of the great tribulation period. Matt 24:15-21 tell us the great tribulation period begins when the Antichrist and the False Prophet set up the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.
Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his bowl upon the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his garments, lest he walk about naked and men see his shame.”) 16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Magedon. 17 And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “ It is done.” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. 19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.
Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains;..............21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall.
The great tribulation of Matthew 24 was the destruction of Jerusalem. There is no antichrist or false prophet in Matthew 24. The abomination of desolation was the Roman armies (Luke 21:20). They were not "set up".
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Rev. 19:20 says you are wrong. The Roman Army wasn't destroyed without human agency.
Rev. 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
There is no beast or false prophet in Matthew 24. The Roman army in Matthew 24 was not destroyed; it was the destroyer. There is no connection between Matthew 24 and Revelation 19:20.
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