USA shouldn't ban any "religion"??

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
If a "religion" is in opposition to the US Constitution

it should not be allowed in the US

that seems rather simple, doesn't it?

it is called subversiveness.. It is called treason (to egregiously oppose your country... and act on t hose beliefs)

so i dont know what the big deal is about a ban on non-US citizen Muslims.. Their religion is against our "religion"... against our country.. OK, i have not read the whole Koran.. but I've read some of it and it clearly says in more than one place to kill the infidel..

One Muslim said on TV some time ago that the Koran teaches not to kill "the innocent"

well, we can see the problem with that can't we?

they do not consider us "innocent"

they say we are sold out to the devil (or words to that effect)
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
One Muslim said on TV some time ago that the Koran teaches not to kill "the innocent"
Im sure your church said the same thing. I see no difference, maybe thats why your church considers them brothers.
 

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
5,592
6,846
113
Faith
Christian
See what happens when you nurture a nation to be cowards. They become willing to surrender their liberties for security. The devil is playing every side in this battle.
 

junobet

Active Member
May 20, 2016
581
165
43
Germany
ScaliaFan said:
If a "religion" is in opposition to the US Constitution

it should not be allowed in the US

that seems rather simple, doesn't it?

it is called subversiveness.. It is called treason (to egregiously oppose your country... and act on t hose beliefs)

so i dont know what the big deal is about a ban on non-US citizen Muslims.. Their religion is against our "religion"... against our country.. OK, i have not read the whole Koran.. but I've read some of it and it clearly says in more than one place to kill the infidel..

One Muslim said on TV some time ago that the Koran teaches not to kill "the innocent"

well, we can see the problem with that can't we?

they do not consider us "innocent"

they say we are sold out to the devil (or words to that effect)
It’s kind of depressing that such a mind-set could get prominent in a country that is mainly inhabited by the descendants of people who fled poverty and religious persecution.
Over here in Europe, too, it sometimes feels as if enlightenment had never happened. Which begs the question which 'values' the West still claims to defend. Freedom of Religion, the right for a fair trial, the strict rejection of torture ... all out of the window already.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
It is a curious and ironic thing that a Catholic would cite the constitution in defense of religious liberty. Historic Catholicism (and in less politically correct hallways of current Vatican thought) the constitution is considered heresy, and past Popes would have loved to have torn it up.

Quanta Cura
Encyclical of Pope Pius IX promulgated on December 8, 1864
From section #3:
For you well know, venerable brethren, that at this time men are found not a few who, applying to civil society the impious and absurd principle of "naturalism," as they call it, dare to teach that "the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones."

Pius IX Pontifex Maximus

Pius IX is advocating in the above passage that society should be governed in such as way as to discriminate between the "true religion" (Catholicism) and "false religion" (all non-Catholics). Pius IX continues:
And, against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that "that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require."
So heretics, according to Pius IX, maintain that the Catholic Church has no right to compel secular civil authorities to arrest and prosecute anti-Catholic protesters, with the exception of instances of public disorder. In short, heretics advocate religious freedom.
Now Pius IX clarifies his view further:
From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal in its effects on the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, an "insanity,"* [2] viz., that "liberty of conscience and worship is each man's personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way."
2. Gregory XVI, encyclical epistle "Mirari vos," 15 August 1832.
The assertion has just been made by two Popes that the concepts of religious liberty and freedom of speech are nothing less than "insanity", and that Catholic and civil authorities have the right to restrict and abolish all rights of anyone who is not Catholic. He also considers such principles of liberty as fatal blows to the Catholic faith, that the Catholic faith cannot survive in an atmosphere of freedom, but rather only by resorting to repression and persecution as directed by the Church.
But, while they rashly affirm this, they do not think and consider that they are preaching "liberty of perdition;"[3] and that "if human arguments are always allowed free room for discussion, there will never be wanting men who will dare to resist truth, and to trust in the flowing speech of human wisdom; whereas we know, from the very teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, how carefully Christian faith and wisdom should avoid this most injurious babbling."[4]
3. St. Augustine, epistle 105 (166).
4. St. Leo, epistle 14 (133), sect. 2, edit. Ball.
Religious liberty is equated here with lawlessness and chaos (perdition). What is advocated here is nothing less than the abolishing of freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
*It is interesting to note that in Quanta Cura, Pope Pius IX makes a point of quoting Pope Gregory XVI as using the word "insanity" in describing the principle of religious liberty in Mirari vos, yet if you check Mirari vos at Catholic sources on the web, you will discover the word has been removed from the text. I offer the translation of Mirari vos at EWTN as one example of this kind of politically correct historical revisionism that attempts to take the edge off past papal remarks and make them appear more palatable. Here is an apparently more accurate translation of what Gregory XVI actually said in section 14 of Mirari vos, and below it is what EWTN's version says:
14. And from this most putrid font of indifferentism flows that absurd and erroneous view, or rather insanity, that liberty of conscience should be asserted and claimed for just anyone.
(EWTN) 14. This shameful font of indifferentism gives rise to that absurd and erroneous proposition which claims that liberty of conscience must be maintained for everyone.
If the Catholics cannot present their own history faithfully, then how can anything they say be considered trustworthy? They claim to be the sole authority for interpreting scripture, yet apparently cannot even translate their papal documents accurately. Perhaps Catholic translations of papal encyclicals should be considered as "edited for political correctness" until other sources are consulted.
Released at the same time as the encyclical Quanta Cura, Pius IX issued a list or Syllabus of Errors. The following statements are from that syllabus and are condemned as being in error:
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.-- Allocution Maxima quidem, June 9, 1862; Damnatio Multiplices inter, June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.-- Encyclical Qui pluribus, Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.--Encyclical Quanto conficiamur, Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.--Encyclical Noscitis, Dec. 8, 1849.
24. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.—Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851.
55. The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church.--Allocution Acerbissimum, Sept. 27, 1852.
Because the above are errors, Pius IX is actually saying:
15. No man is entitled to freedom of religion.
16-18. Salvation is found only in the Catholic Church, and not in any other denomination, to include Protestantism.
24. The Catholic Church may employ force to achieve her ends.
55. Church and State should be united as one.
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
mjrhealth said:
Im sure your church said the same thing. I see no difference, maybe thats why your church considers them brothers.
shows what u know about Church history

namely zip
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dan57

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
It is a curious and ironic thing that a Catholic would cite the constitution in defense of religious liberty. Historic Catholicism (and in less politically correct hallways of current Vatican thought) the constitution is considered heresy, and past Popes would have loved to have torn it up.
That is a seroius UNTRUTH

but the Catholic Church is the most lied about thing in history
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
lforrest said:
See what happens when you nurture a nation to be cowards. They become willing to surrender their liberties for security. The devil is playing every side in this battle.
cowards?

i dont know.. seems pretty "brave" to let in a bunch of people you dont know.. but the elites can afford huge fences and armed guards... to heck w/ the little people.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
ScaliaFan said:
That is a seroius UNTRUTH

but the Catholic Church is the most lied about thing in history
So how is the following in harmony with the US Constitution and Bill of Rights?
The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience, are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a State.' Pope Pius IX., in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854.
The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized 'those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.'
"The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart. She is tolerant where she is helpless. Says Bishop O'Connor: 'Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world."
"The archbishop of St. Louis once said: 'Heresy and unbelief are crimes; and in Christian countries, as in Italy and Spain, for instance, where all the people are Catholics, and where the Catholic religion is an essential part of the law of the land, they are punished as other crimes."
"Every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words: 'Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord the pope, or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose."

Look up the so-called Syllabus of Errors, reflecting Roman dogma in relation to liberty of conscience.You really need to study a little deeper...scratch even just a little below the surface. to discover the true character and aims of your church. There is plenty of evidence out there if you are only willing to learn.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
ScaliaFan said:
cowards?

i dont know.. seems pretty "brave" to let in a bunch of people you dont know.. but the elites can afford huge fences and armed guards... to heck w/ the little people.
In early American history, when memories were fresh regarding the religious persecutions of their European homelands, there was only one reason Catholics were allowed into the nation, despite grave fears of what would, and is, taking place. That reason was the fact that the founding fathers recognized that while demanding religious liberty for themselves, they could not in all justice deny it to others, even to those who have sworn to their destruction. Now that was courage. They obeyed principle above self preservation.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Despite the numerous protests to the contrary, persecution by the church of Rome wasn’t just a few incidental instances over a period of a couple of years by a few misguided zealots. It was a matter of established policy. Catholics today would have us believe that the history of prolonged persecutions and wars fought on behalf of the Papacy are false, exaggerated,or even justifiable because Protestants did the same. I would remind everyone that the inquisition began exterminating heretics hundreds of ears before there was such a thing as a Protestant.
Let us look for example at the Holy Office of the Inquisition. An office by the way that still exists today albeit, unsurprisingly, under a different name, with a recent former pope being the former head of that esteemed office.
The origins of this organism can be clearly traced to 1227-1233 A. D., during the pontificate of Gregory IX. In 1229 the church council of Tolouse condemned the Albigenses in France and gave orders to exterminate them. In 1231 Gregory IX in his bull, Excommunicamus, condemned all heretics and proclaimed specific laws on how to deal with them. Among the provisions were the following:
1. Delivery of heretics to the civil power.
2. Excommunication of all heretics as well as their defenders, followers, friends, and even those who failed to turn them in.
3. Life imprisonment for all impenitent heretics.
4. Heretics were denied the right to appeal their sentence.
5. Those suspected of heresy had no right to be defended by counsel.
6. Children of heretics were disqualified from holding a church office until the second generation.
7. Heretics who had died without being punished were to be exhumed and their bodies burned.
8. The homes of convicted heretics were to be demolished. (See, G. Barraclough, The Medieval Papacy, London, 1968, edited by Thames and Hudson, p. 128; and R. I Moore,
“The Origins of Medieval Heresy”, in History, vol. 55 (1970), pp. 21-36).
In The Decretals of Gregory IX we find the following:
“Temporal princes shall be reminded and exhorted, and if need be, compelled by spiritual censures, to discharge every one of their functions; and that, as they desire to be reckoned and held faithful, so, for the defense of the faith, let them publicly make oath that they will endeavor, bona fide with all their might, to extirpate from their territories all heretics marked by the church; so that when any one is about to assume any authority, whether spiritual or temporal, he shall be held bound to confirm his title by this oath. And if a temporal prince, being required and admonished by the church, shall neglect to purge his kingdom from this heretical pravity, the metropolitan and other provincial bishops shall bind him in fetters of excommunication; and if he obstinately refuse to make satisfaction this shall be notified within a year to the Supreme Pontiff, that then he may declare his subjects absolved from their allegiance, and leave their lands to be occupied by Catholics, who, the heretics being exterminated, may possess them unchallenged, and preserve them in the purity of the faith.”
(The Decretals of Gregory IX, book 5, title 7, chapter 13).
During the pontificate of Innocent IV (1241-1253), the mechanism of the Inquisition was further developed. In the papal bull Ad Extirpanda (1252), the following provisions were given the force of law:
1. Torture must be applied to heretics so as to secure confessions.
2. Those found guilty must be burned at the stake.
3. A police force must be established to serve the needs of the Inquisition.
4. A proclamation of a crusade against all heretics in Italy. Those participating in this
crusade were to be extended the same privileges and indulgences as those who went on crusades to the Holy Land.
5. The heirs of heretics were to have their goods confiscated as well.
The Catholic Encyclopedia explains:
“In the Bull ‘Ad exstirpanda’ (1252) Innocent IV says: ‘When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podesta or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them’. . . Nor could any doubt remain as to what civil regulations were meant, for the passages which ordered the burning of the impenitent heretics were inserted in the papal decretals from the imperial constitutions Commissis nobis’ and Inconsutibilem tunicam. The aforesaid Bull ‘Ad exstirpanda’ remained thenceforth a fundamental document of the Inquisition, renewed or re-enforced by several popes, Alexander IV (1254-61), Clement IV (1265-68), Nicholas
IV (1288-92), Boniface VIII (1294-1303), and others. The civil authorities, therefore, were enjoined by the popes, under pain of excommunication to execute the legal sentences that condemned impenitent heretics to the stake”. (Joseph Blotzer, article, ‘Inquisition’, vol. VIII, p. 34).
The savagery of Innocent the IV has led the Roman Catholic historian, Peter de Rosa, to state:
“In [Pope] Innocent’s view, it was more wicked for Albigenses to call him the antichrist than for him to prove it by burning them–men, women, and children by the thousands.”
(Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ, p. 225).
Further, de Rosa makes this telling comment: “Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on, not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine.”
(Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ, pp. 175-176).
It was during this same period that one of the greatest dogmatic theologians in the history of the Roman Catholic Church added his support to the idea of exterminating heretics. Let’s allow St. Thomas Aquinas to speak for himself:
“With regard to heretics two elements are to be considered, one element on their side, and the other on the part of the church. On their side is the sin whereby they have deserved, not only to be separated from the church by excommunication, but also to be banished from the world by death. For it is a much heavier offense to corrupt the faith, whereby the life of the soul is sustained, than to tamper with the coinage, which is an aid to temporal life. Hence if coiners or other malefactors are at once handed over by the secular princes to a just death, much more may heretics, immediately they are convicted of heresy, be not only excommunicated, but also justly done to die. But on the part of the church is mercy in view of the conversion of them that err; and therefore she does not condemn at once, but ‘after the first and second admonition,’ as the apostle teaches. After that, however, if the man is still found pertinacious, the church, having no hope of his conversion, provides for the safety of others, cutting him off from the church by the sentence of excommunication; and further she leaves him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated from the world by death.”
(Joseph Rickaby, S. J. (R. C.), Aquinas Ethicus; or, The Moral Teaching of St. Thomas, Vol. I, pp. 332, 333. London: Burns and Oates, 1892).
The fourteenth century inquisitor, Bernard Gui explained the purpose of the Inquisition:
“the objective of the Inquisition is to destroy heresy; it is not possible to destroy heresy unless you eradicate the heretics; and it is impossible to eradicate the heretics unless you also eradicate those who hide them, sympathize with them and protect them.”
(Salim Japas, Herejia, Colon y la Inquisicion (Siloam Springs, Arkansas: Creation Enterprises, 1992), p. 20; ).
Moving on to the fifteenth century, we think of John Wycliffe. The Papacy would have been delighted to burn him at the stake during his life, but divine providence ruled otherwise. Forty years after his death, the Council of Constance (1413) ordered his body exhumed and burned. (see more on this in Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, pp. 7-8 and The Great Controversy, pp. 95-96).
Notice the words of Pope Martin V (1417-31) to the King of Poland commanding him to exterminate the Hussites:
“Know that the interests of the Holy See, and those of your crown, make it a duty to exterminate the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare proclaim principles of equality; they maintain that all Christians are brethren, and that God has not given to privileged men the right of ruling the nations; they hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery, they call the people to liberty, that is to the annihilation of kings and priests. While there is still time, then, turn your forces against Bohemia; burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing could be more agreeable to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites.” (Quoted in, Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, p. 247). These words were written by Martin V in 1429.
The story of John Hus is very well known. In 1415 he was burned at the stake even though King Sigismund had guaranteed him safe conduct to defend himself at the Council of Constance (1414-1418). The remarkable fact is that Sigismund was encouraged to break his word by the Roman Catholic religious leaders. For a vivid description of the martyrdom of John Hus, read, The Great Controversy, pp. 109-110 and Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, pp. 19-30.
A year later, in 1416, Jerome was also burned at the stake. For the fascinating story of how Jerome recanted his faith and then recanted his recantation, see, The Great Controversy, pp. 112- 115 and Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, pp. 31-38. In both of these cases, the trial was held in the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Constance. After the trial Hus and Jerome were delivered to the secular power to be exterminated.
Also in the fifteenth century, Pope Innocent VIII proclaimed a Bull against the Waldenses (1487). The original text of this Bull is found in the library of the University of Cambridge and a English translation can be found in John Dowling’s History of Romanism (1871 edition), book 6, chapter 5, section 62. Ellen White, in The Great Controversy, p. 77 quotes a portion of this bull in the following words: “Therefore the pope ordered ‘that malicious and abominable sect of
malignants,’ if they ‘refuse to abjure, to be crushed like venomous snakes.’”
let me quote a church publication to put things in perspective.
“You ask, if he [the Roman Catholic] were lord in the land, and you were in the minority, if not in numbers yet in power, what would he do to you? That, we say, would entirely depend upon the circumstances. If it would benefit the cause of Catholicism, he would tolerate you: if expedient, he would imprison you, banish you, fine you; possibly even hang you. But be assured of one thing: he would never tolerate you for the sake of the ‘glorious principles of civil and religious liberty’. . .
Catholicism is the most intolerant of creeds. It is intolerance itself, for it is truth itself. We might as rationally maintain that a sane man has a right to believe that two and two do not make four, as this theory of religious liberty. Its impiety is only equalled [sic] by its absurdity. . .
A Catholic temporal government would be guided in its treatment of Protestants and other recusants solely by the rules of expediency, adopting precisely that line of conduct which would tend best to their conversion, and to prevent the dissemination of their errors.” Civil and Religious Liberty, The Rambler, 8 (September, 1851), pp. 174, 178.
The infamous syllabus of errors (infallible) echoes the above sentiments with regards religious liberty. These are relatively recent thoughts. So what happened to infallibility?
“He who publicly avows a heresy and tries to pervert others by word or example, speaking absolutely, can not only be excommunicated but even justly put to death, lest he ruin others by pestilential contagion; for a bad man is worse than a wild beast, and does more harm, as Aristotle says. Hence, as it is not wrong to kill a wild beast which does great harm, so it must be right to deprive of his harmful life a heretic who withdraws from divine truth and plots against the salvation of others.”
(Fr. Alexis M. Lepicier, De Stabilitate et Progressu Dogmatis, [printed at the official printing office in Rome in 1910], p. 194.
Or again even more recently perhaps from The Tablet, the official newspaper of the Roman Catholic diocese of Brooklyn, New York:
“Heresy is an awful crime against God, and those who start a heresy are more guilty than they who are traitors to the civil government. If the State has the right to punish treason with death, the principle is the same which concedes to the spiritual authority the power of capital punishment over the arch-traitor to truth and divine revelation. . . A perfect society has the right to its existence. . . and the power of capital punishment is acknowledged for a perfect society. Now. . . the Roman Catholic Church is a perfect society, and as such has the right and power to take means to safeguard its existence.”
(The Tablet, November 5, 1938).
The above reflects an ongoing policy that had endured for 1000 years. And although the recent apologies by the pope were welcome, albeit rather generalised, history and prophecy mitigate against any deep seated genuine change in Vatican thought. Steeped in over a thousand years of tradition and self assured righteousness, the curia I believe is far too entrenched in their own self deceptive dogmas to change in just one short generation from an attitude of total extermination of all opposition to one of brotherly love and tolerance to other faith practices. And prophecy testifies to the same.
Inherent in Catholic policy is the willingness to use civil legislation to enforce church dogma. This policy has prevailed since the time of Justinian. And it continues today. If such legislation is enforced, is this not simply another form of persecution? And if it touches religious matters, does it not invade our liberties which you claim are now sacrosanct according to the Vatican. Yet I quote here Pope JP2 which totally contradicts freedom of conscience.
“Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy. In any case, they are obliged in conscience to arrange their Sunday rest in a way which allows them to take part in the Eucharist, refraining from work and activities which are incompatible with the sanctification of the Lord’s Day, with its characteristic joy and necessary rest for spirit and body.” (Dios Domini page 112)
And Benedict added to this….
The RCC “makes its contribution (in the ethical and moral sphere) according to the dispositions of international law, helps to define that law, and makes appeal to it”, that we live in a time when little groups of independent people threaten the unity of the world, (Sabbath keepers ??) and that the only way to combat this problem is by establishing law and then ordering all of society according to this law, thus promoting “peace and good will throughout the earth.” (Apostolic Journey to the United States of America and Visit to the United Nations Organization Headquarters, Meeting with the Members of the General Assembly of the United Nations Organization, Address of Pope Benedict XVI, New York, Friday, April 18, 2008.)
And if any here think that JP2 comment won’t affect them, consider the following.
on June 26, 2000 the United Religions Initiative was signed into what government leaders refer to as a global law. Truth is, this is actually one of many global laws popping up lately. At the signing of that document it became an all-inclusive international reality that any pope sitting in the Vatican after that date is now considered the universal moral authority over all churches with membership in the World Wide Council of churches, which essentially rules over your locally known National Council of Churches. This includes non-Christian churches that have joined as well.
Whether you believe the RCC has changed or not, whether you accept her apologies over past grievances, the fact remains that the RCC has fully met all the criteria to fulfilling the prophecies regarding the persecution of the saints. Untold thousands of Christians have been tortured, harried, chased, displaced and put to death by the Roman church. The Book of Revelation and Daniel both reveal clearly that this will continue right up to the second coming.
If one protests that the RCC does not do such a thing today, I can testify to being acquainted personally with a convert to another Christian denominmation from Catholicism who is in fear of her life should she return to India. Even here, in her adopted country, Catholic workmates and former friends have turned against her, ostracised her, and are doing all in their power to remove her from her position at her work where she is a nurse. Her brother incidentally converted to a pentacostal denomination in India and was physically cast from his house, his work, and village, his family have rejected him, and he is now in fear of his life. This scenario is not uncommon in countries where Catholicism has the power to implement and carry out and support such practices. The Philipines, and many South American countries and also even some south Pacific Islands come to mind. (Need I mention Ireland?)
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
In early American history, when memories were fresh regarding the religious persecutions of their European homelands, there was only one reason Catholics were allowed into the nation, despite grave fears of what would, and is, taking place. That reason was the fact that the founding fathers recognized that while demanding religious liberty for themselves, they could not in all justice deny it to others, even to those who have sworn to their destruction. Now that was courage. They obeyed principle above self preservation.
you do not know history of the Church. The CAtholic Church never persecuted anyone. People IN the Church have done all kinds of evils.. but the Church itself is.. well, as many of the saints say... the Church IS Jesus... and of course we all can agree that Jesus does not harm people
 
B

brakelite

Guest
ScaliaFan said:
you do not know history of the Church. The CAtholic Church never persecuted anyone. People IN the Church have done all kinds of evils.. but the Church itself is.. well, as many of the saints say... the Church IS Jesus... and of course we all can agree that Jesus does not harm people
The Catholic Church never persecuted anyone? I am sorry Scaliafan...I was in two minds as to whether I should bother responding to this, and then wondering how to respond without being either offensive or sounding accusatory of you or other individual Catholics. I understand your perspective...like I have mentioned previously, I grew up/raised Catholic and I understand how there is such a dependence upon Rome for individual salvation among Catholic believers. To doubt the church, or to speak against it in any way, brings fear of a loss of grace as if it is a sin against Christ Himself. But Christ my friend is Truth...He will in no wise condone lying, even from a church which purports to represent Him. For any church, either Catholic, Protestant, or any of the cults, to claim such power as to be the source of salvation for anyone and claim that a member without the church may be lost, is taking to itself a Godly prerogative...a judgement belonging only to the Most High. On the contrary, it is imperative that we judge the church, after all, it is but an institution...and human institutions are susceptible to error, sometimes gross ones., even institutions founded by Christ Himself.
On the subject of persecution, the Catholic church was indeed guilty of such...the historical record is replete with incidents/wars/organized military programs explicitly targeting those who did not surrender to Papal authority. Google for example the history of the Waldenses, St Bartholemew's massacre, The Albigenses, the history of Mary Queen of Scots (bloody Mary),(and I have barely scratched the surface ....yeah, I know. you will say that these were all done by secular powers etc etc. But all of them, without exception, were instigated, supported by, and accomplished with Vatican approval, even assistance. Read Foxe's book of martyrs, educate yourself, search for the truth scaliafan....your eternal destiny does not depend on what church you belong to, but it does depend on whether you have a love for and a desire for Truth.
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
The Catholic Church never persecuted anyone? I am sorry Scaliafan...I was in two minds as to whether I should bother responding to this, and then wondering how to respond without being either offensive or sounding accusatory of you or other individual Catholics. I understand your perspective...like I have mentioned previously, I grew up/raised Catholic and I understand how there is such a dependence upon Rome for individual salvation among Catholic believers. To doubt the church, or to speak against it in any way, brings fear of a loss of grace as if it is a sin against Christ Himself. But Christ my friend is Truth...He will in no wise condone lying, even from a church which purports to represent Him. For any church, either Catholic, Protestant, or any of the cults, to claim such power as to be the source of salvation for anyone and claim that a member without the church may be lost, is taking to itself a Godly prerogative...a judgement belonging only to the Most High. On the contrary, it is imperative that we judge the church, after all, it is but an institution...and human institutions are susceptible to error, sometimes gross ones., even institutions founded by Christ Himself.
On the subject of persecution, the Catholic church was indeed guilty of such...the historical record is replete with incidents/wars/organized military programs explicitly targeting those who did not surrender to Papal authority. Google for example the history of the Waldenses, St Bartholemew's massacre, The Albigenses, the history of Mary Queen of Scots (bloody Mary),(and I have barely scratched the surface ....yeah, I know. you will say that these were all done by secular powers etc etc. But all of them, without exception, were instigated, supported by, and accomplished with Vatican approval, even assistance. Read Foxe's book of martyrs, educate yourself, search for the truth scaliafan....your eternal destiny does not depend on what church you belong to, but it does depend on whether you have a love for and a desire for Truth.
Did you read anything I wrote????

When you really read it, meaning w/o violating the laws of reading comprehension 101, maybe I will read all your comments.. As it is, I have read about 5 sentences or so

I don't like reading cluelessness

Again, the Church IS Jesus

(Catherine of Sienna and other saints)

and until you get that, you won't get anything

The Church is far more than the sum of its all-too-human parts...

again, until you get that, you won't get anything
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
Despite the numerous protests to the contrary, persecution by the church of Rome wasn’t just a few incidental instances over a period of a couple of years by a few misguided zealots. It was a matter of established policy. Catholics today would have us believe that the history of prolonged persecutions and wars fought on behalf of the Papacy are false, exaggerated,or even justifiable because Protestants did the same. I would remind everyone that the inquisition began exterminating heretics hundreds of ears before there was such a thing as a Protestant.
Let us look for example at the Holy Office of the Inquisition. An office by the way that still exists today albeit, unsurprisingly, under a different name, with a recent former pope being the former head of that esteemed office.
The origins of this organism can be clearly traced to 1227-1233 A. D., during the pontificate of Gregory IX. In 1229 the church council of Tolouse condemned the Albigenses in France and gave orders to exterminate them. In 1231 Gregory IX in his bull, Excommunicamus, condemned all heretics and proclaimed specific laws on how to deal with them. Among the provisions were the following:
1. Delivery of heretics to the civil power.
you have believed the liars of history, the re-writers of history

In the middle ages, people convicted of a crime usually ASKED for a court of Inquisition. They knew the clergy would be merciful.. whereas the secular rules... ha ha... what a joke.. Yes, people used to ask to be tried by the supposedly horrible inquisitors
 
B

brakelite

Guest
If you are unwilling to read my full posts, then you do not want to know or understand the truth, and you will perish in your own ignorance.You scaliafan are so confused by the deliberate delusions foisted upon you by your church, and out of self preservation you are too afraid to question them. Only a church that abides in Christ can be called the church or body of Christ. The Catholic church, as an institution, divorced itself from Christ the moment it took to itself secular power, accepting such from pagan Rome, from which she inherited all manner of pagan titles and practices. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world...the Papacy however has made it their business to establish their interpretation of God's kingdom upon the secular world.
And like I said earlier, the evil of persecutions and the extermination of heretics was not instigated by secular rulers, but by churchmen bent on forcefully establishing papal authority upon everyone. They were turned over to secular authorities who out of superstitious fear of being excommunicated, accepted the role of executioner. This practice was not the sole property of a few wicked individuals. but was entrenched infallible church policy for over 1000 years and is still such today.
One Pope as recent as just 120 years ago placed a curse upon anyone who would disagree that the church has the right to punish heretics with physical punishment, even death. Read the Syllabus of Errors.

The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. —Apostolic Letter "Ad Apostolicae," Aug. 22, 1851. (Condemned as error).
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on Heresy and Heretics
St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) is highly respected as an author and teacher in the Roman Catholic Church. He wrote on nearly the entire range of theology and philosophy. His main works were Summa contra Gentiles and Summa Theologiae. He was canonized as a Catholic saint in 1323, proclaimed a doctor of theology in 1567, and named patron of Catholic schools and education on January 28, 1880.
Here from Summa Theologiae is Thomas Aquinas' definition of a heretic:
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[2] R.O. 3 Para. 1/1
Reply OBJ 3: As Augustine says (Ep. xliii) and we find it stated in the Decretals (xxiv, qu. 3, can. Dixit Apostolus): "By no means should we accuse of heresy those who, however false and perverse their opinion may be, defend it without obstinate fervor, and seek the truth with careful anxiety, ready to mend their opinion, when they have found the truth," because, to wit, they do not make a choice in contradiction to the doctrine of the Church.
Accordingly, certain doctors seem to have differed either in matters the holding of which in this or that way is of no consequence, so far as faith is concerned, or even in matters of faith, which were not as yet defined by the Church; although if anyone were obstinately to deny them after they had been defined by the authority of the universal Church, he would be deemed a heretic.
This authority resides chiefly in the Sovereign Pontiff. For we read [*Decret. xxiv, qu. 1, can. Quoties]: "Whenever a question of faith is in dispute, I think, that all our brethren and fellow bishops ought to refer the matter to none other than Peter, as being the source of their name and honor, against whose authority neither Jerome nor Augustine nor any of the holy doctors defended their opinion."
Hence Jerome says (Exposit. Symbol [*Among the supposititious works of St. Jerome]): "This, most blessed Pope, is the faith that we have been taught in the Catholic Church. If anything therein has been incorrectly or carelessly expressed, we beg that it may be set aright by you who hold the faith and see of Peter. If however this, our profession, be approved by the judgment of your apostleship, whoever may blame me, will prove that he himself is ignorant, or malicious, or even not a catholic but a heretic."
So according to Thomas Aquinas, the issue at stake is the defined doctrines and dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. If you knowingly contradict the Papacy and doctrines as the Pope defines them, then you are a classed as a heretic. Following are four possible observations about tolerating heretics...
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Thes. Para. 1/1
Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 1 Para. 1/1
OBJ 1: It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated. For the Apostle says (2 Tim. 2:24,25): "The servant of the Lord must not wrangle . . . with modesty admonishing them that resist the truth, if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil." Now if heretics are not tolerated but put to death, they lose the opportunity of repentance. Therefore it seems contrary to the Apostle's command.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 2 Para. 1/1
OBJ 2: Further, whatever is necessary in the Church should be tolerated. Now heresies are necessary in the Church, since the Apostle says (1 Cor. 11:19): "There must be . . . heresies, that they . . . who are reproved, may be manifest among you." Therefore it seems that heretics should be tolerated.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 3 Para. 1/1
OBJ 3: Further, the Master commanded his servants (Mt. 13:30) to suffer the cockle "to grow until the harvest," i.e. the end of the world, as a gloss explains it. Now holy men explain that the cockle denotes heretics. Therefore heretics should be tolerated.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] OTC Para. 1/1
On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10,11): "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted."
And now, Thomas Aquinas' opinion on what should be done with heretics ...
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2
I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2
On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."

Submission to their alleged authority has always been the primary concern of the Roman Catholic Church. It was never Bibilical accuracy that brought people such as Luther, Huss, and Jerome before the councils, but there refusal to submit to authority. So it shall be in years to come. History well documents the bloodshed that resulted from thinking like that demonstrated above, when people dared to read the Bible for themselves and follow its precepts and doctrines without interference from the Catholic Church, even daring to reject the pronouncements and decrees of the Pope himself. The death of these martyrs of the faith at Catholic hands is also recorded prophetically in the Bible-
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica on Heresy and Heretics
St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) is highly respected as an author and teacher in the Roman Catholic Church. He wrote on nearly the entire range of theology and philosophy. His main works were Summa contra Gentiles and Summa Theologiae. He was canonized as a Catholic saint in 1323, proclaimed a doctor of theology in 1567, and named patron of Catholic schools and education on January 28, 1880.
Here from Summa Theologiae is Thomas Aquinas' definition of a heretic:
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[2] R.O. 3 Para. 1/1
Reply OBJ 3: As Augustine says (Ep. xliii) and we find it stated in the Decretals (xxiv, qu. 3, can. Dixit Apostolus): "By no means should we accuse of heresy those who, however false and perverse their opinion may be, defend it without obstinate fervor, and seek the truth with careful anxiety, ready to mend their opinion, when they have found the truth," because, to wit, they do not make a choice in contradiction to the doctrine of the Church.
Accordingly, certain doctors seem to have differed either in matters the holding of which in this or that way is of no consequence, so far as faith is concerned, or even in matters of faith, which were not as yet defined by the Church; although if anyone were obstinately to deny them after they had been defined by the authority of the universal Church, he would be deemed a heretic.
This authority resides chiefly in the Sovereign Pontiff. For we read [*Decret. xxiv, qu. 1, can. Quoties]: "Whenever a question of faith is in dispute, I think, that all our brethren and fellow bishops ought to refer the matter to none other than Peter, as being the source of their name and honor, against whose authority neither Jerome nor Augustine nor any of the holy doctors defended their opinion."
Hence Jerome says (Exposit. Symbol [*Among the supposititious works of St. Jerome]): "This, most blessed Pope, is the faith that we have been taught in the Catholic Church. If anything therein has been incorrectly or carelessly expressed, we beg that it may be set aright by you who hold the faith and see of Peter. If however this, our profession, be approved by the judgment of your apostleship, whoever may blame me, will prove that he himself is ignorant, or malicious, or even not a catholic but a heretic."
So according to Thomas Aquinas, the issue at stake is the defined doctrines and dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. If you knowingly contradict the Papacy and doctrines as the Pope defines them, then you are a classed as a heretic. Following are four possible observations about tolerating heretics...
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Thes. Para. 1/1
Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 1 Para. 1/1
OBJ 1: It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated. For the Apostle says (2 Tim. 2:24,25): "The servant of the Lord must not wrangle . . . with modesty admonishing them that resist the truth, if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil." Now if heretics are not tolerated but put to death, they lose the opportunity of repentance. Therefore it seems contrary to the Apostle's command.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 2 Para. 1/1
OBJ 2: Further, whatever is necessary in the Church should be tolerated. Now heresies are necessary in the Church, since the Apostle says (1 Cor. 11:19): "There must be . . . heresies, that they . . . who are reproved, may be manifest among you." Therefore it seems that heretics should be tolerated.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Obj. 3 Para. 1/1
OBJ 3: Further, the Master commanded his servants (Mt. 13:30) to suffer the cockle "to grow until the harvest," i.e. the end of the world, as a gloss explains it. Now holy men explain that the cockle denotes heretics. Therefore heretics should be tolerated.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] OTC Para. 1/1
On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10,11): "A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted."
And now, Thomas Aquinas' opinion on what should be done with heretics ...
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2
I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2
On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."

Submission to their alleged authority has always been the primary concern of the Roman Catholic Church. It was never Bibilical accuracy that brought people such as Luther, Huss, and Jerome before the councils, but there refusal to submit to authority. So it shall be in years to come. History well documents the bloodshed that resulted from thinking like that demonstrated above, when people dared to read the Bible for themselves and follow its precepts and doctrines without interference from the Catholic Church, even daring to reject the pronouncements and decrees of the Pope himself. The death of these martyrs of the faith at Catholic hands is also recorded prophetically in the Bible-
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration
ummmm


hmmmm.... weird... I thought you were against the Catholic Church, not for it? strange post for one who is against the Church
 
B

brakelite

Guest
ScaliaFan said:
ummmm


hmmmm.... weird... I thought you were against the Catholic Church, not for it? strange post for one who is against the Church
So, you would agree with Thomas Aquinas? Burning heretics is okay with you? Submission to the authority of Rome is of far more greater import than simply following the Bible?
 

ScaliaFan

New Member
Apr 2, 2016
795
6
0
brakelite said:
So, you would agree with Thomas Aquinas? Burning heretics is okay with you? Submission to the authority of Rome is of far more greater import than simply following the Bible?
none of hte Protestants i have ever known has "followed the Bible." They just follow what they think the Bible says.. I have heard them quote supposedly from the Bible-- but since i know the Bible.. have read the whole thing, i know when they are mangling the Word...

which is NOT good, obviously. They play fast & loose w/ the Word and act like it is no big deal.

and no one ever mentioned burning heretics... so .. ??

Protestants burned those they thought were heretics, but you Protestants think that's OK, apparently. Protestants have done far more persecuting than Catholics...

and also there are far more pedaphiles in nonCatholic than Catholic churches