Very big GAP in the trinity

[janc2]

The answer from the Trinitarians to the question why the Messiah, when he is God, has grown in wisdom and prayed, is: "Because he is man".
They say that God get a real human character through his incarnation; but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth. First, this claim subliminally teaches a second separated person, this means that God the Son cannot be the Messiah and secondly, God the Son who was man on earth worshipped Himself.

 

[ChristisGod]

another strawman........................

Jesus said the following while physically walking this earth.

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The answer from the Trinitarians to the question why the Messiah, when he is God, has grown in wisdom and prayed, is: "Because he is man".
They say that God get a real human character through his incarnation; but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth. First, this claim subliminally teaches a second separated person, this means that God the Son cannot be the Messiah and secondly, God the Son who was man on earth worshipped Himself.

The mother of Jesus, Mary, was completely human. His Father, God's Spirit, is completely God. Therefore, Jesus was born into a completely human body as God the Son. Jesus is called the Son of man (Matt 9:6...) AND the Son of God (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:4).

If you have a hard time understanding this, join the club! I don't believe that the Trinity can be completely grasped by the human mind.

Luke 1:26-35
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.” But she was deeply troubled by this statement, wondering what kind of greeting this could be. Then the angel told her:
Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
Now listen:
You will conceive and give birth to a son,
and you will call His name Jesus.
He will be great
and will be called the Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give Him
the throne of His father David.
He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
and His kingdom will have no end.
Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?”
The angel replied to her:
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore, the holy One to be born
will be called the Son of God...."
.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The answer from the Trinitarians to the question why the Messiah, when he is God, has grown in wisdom and prayed, is: "Because he is man".
They say that God get a real human character through his incarnation; but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth. First, this claim subliminally teaches a second separated person, this means that God the Son cannot be the Messiah and secondly, God the Son who was man on earth worshipped Himself.

On a forum that is based on "Christian Theology," we begin with the idea of the Trinity, and we predicate our arguments on the assumption that Jesus was and is God. So you're really on the wrong forum.

That being said, I'm always interested in engaging any question, Christian or not. The argument that an omnipotent God can be revealed in the limited sphere of the world and in the limited sphere of humanity is not unthinkable, except for those who try to impose their own human thoughts on what God can or cannot do. Logically, an infinite God can reveal Himself in finite forms. That is the very basis of the word of God, that God's ideas can be expressed in the limited language of man.

 

[Taken]

The answer from the Trinitarians to the question why the Messiah, when he is God, has grown in wisdom and prayed, is: "Because he is man".
They say that God get a real human character through his incarnation; but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth. First, this claim subliminally teaches a second separated person, this means that God the Son cannot be the Messiah and secondly, God the Son who was man on earth worshipped Himself.

Well we don't all say the same! lol
Catholics have spoken on this forum, saying Jesus is a Human man, with Mary's DNA - LOL
Others call Jesus a human...that would be Dust.
Others call him a man...
( well He came Expressly Looking Like a Man)....so I would not expect anyone to call Him an elephant!
Legally, He was a male child of Mary and Joseph....Legally- Jewish & Roman Law.

Spiritually...God Declared: God would be A Father to Him...And He would be A Son to the Father.

Heb 1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

 

[ChristisGod]

Well we don't all say the same! lol
Catholics have spoken on this forum, saying Jesus is a Human man, with Mary's DNA - LOL
Others call Jesus a human...that would be Dust.
Others call him a man...
( well He came Expressly Looking Like a Man)....so I would not expect anyone to call Him an elephant!
Legally, He was a male child of Mary and Joseph....Legally- Jewish & Roman Law.

Spiritually...God Declared: God would be A Father to Him...And He would be A Son to the Father.

Heb 1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

see here

Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

 

[Taken]

The mother of Jesus, Mary, was completely human. His Father, God's Spirit, is completely God. Therefore, Jesus was born into a completely human body as God the Son. Jesus is called the Son of man (Matt 9:6...) AND the Son of God (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:4).

If you have a hard time understanding this, join the club! I don't believe that the Trinity can be completely grasped by the human mind.

Luke 1:26-35
In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.” But she was deeply troubled by this statement, wondering what kind of greeting this could be. Then the angel told her:
Do not be afraid, Mary,
for you have found favor with God.
Now listen:
You will conceive and give birth to a son,
and you will call His name Jesus.
He will be great
and will be called the Son of the Most High,
and the Lord God will give Him
the throne of His father David.
He will reign over the house of Jacob forever,
and His kingdom will have no end.
Mary asked the angel, “How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?”
The angel replied to her:
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
Therefore, the holy One to be born
will be called the Son of God...."
.

Marys Seed/ egg / BLOOD had nothing to do with Jesus' Body.

The Body Jesus "took upon Himself" was "Prepared of God."

John 1:
[13] Which were born, NOT of blood, Nor of the wiil of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Remove the not. nor, nor....and you have the fact...."which were Born of God." (Which simply means he came forth out from God)

John 16:
[27] For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Human men do not come forth out from God.

Jesus is the Word of God. The first moment God ever Spoke Anything...The Word of God was coming out from God....
Ventures later, The Word comes forth out of Gods Mouth....And God Prepares a Body for His Word...
Why?

So he could be Face to Face with the Lost Jews and Teach them about their God, that they had been drifting away from.

Jesus didn't have a Human Body of Dust.

Heb 10:[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Humans do not have "Prepared bodies." From Heaven
Humans have body formed from Dust of the Earth.

Mary birth from womb, what was PUT in her Womb, and that which was born out of her womb, was called the Son of man...

The angel foretold Mary he:

"will be called the Son of God...."

He was not called the Son of God when he was born from Mary's Womb...

Study as if you only knew what they knew ...
Too easy to get out of order.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

see here

Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

Not reading all that and then guess your intent and point.

So what is your point to my post?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Marys Seed/ egg / BLOOD had nothing to do with Jesus' Body.

I disagree. Why would God use a woman’s body at all? Why not use a cabbage patch?

Gal 3:4-5--When the time came to completion, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

You may want to consider this article:

Did God place Jesus as a fetus in the womb of Mary?

Did God place a living fetus in the womb of Mary who then became Jesus? No, God did not place a living fetus in the womb of Mary. We do not know exactly what happened at Jesus' conception, but Mary is literally and genetically the mother of Jesus; at least, his physical form. If God did place a viable fetus in the womb of Mary, not using her egg, then that would deny Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah would be born to the lineage of David (John 7:42; Psalm 132:11; Jeremiah 23:5). Mary was a descendent of David and the mother of Jesus (Luke 3:23-38 ). If a viable fetus was simply placed in Mary's womb, then it could have been any woman who could have given birth to him. This would mean there was no lineage to Jesus' birth, and that would violate the Scripture.

This would further mean that Jesus was not really Jewish. He would be a Gentile with no real Jewish lineage. But he was a Jew, made under the law (Galatians 4:4). He had to be circumcised, which is a requirement for Jews. He also participated in the Passover meal which is for the Jews. And, the woman at the well specifically called Jesus a Jew. She said, "... How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" (John 4:9). Jesus did not correct her by saying he was not Jewish. Why? Because he was Jewish.

Jewishness was traced to the mother. Please consider these quotes.

• "Jewishness is not in our DNA. It is in our soul. The reason it is passed down through the maternal line is not just because it is easier to identify who your mother is. It is because the soul identity is more directly shaped by the mother than the father." Why Is Jewishness Matrilineal? - Maternal Descent In Judaism
• "According to halakha, to determine a person's Jewish status (Hebrew: yuhasin) one needs to consider the status of both parents. If both parents are Jewish, their child will also be considered Jewish, and the child takes the status of the father (e.g., as a kohen). If either parent is subject to a genealogical disability (e.g., is a mamzer) then the child is also subject to that disability. If one of the parents is not Jewish, the rule is that the child takes the status of the mother (Kiddushin 66b, Shulchan Aruch, EH 4:19)...All branches of Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism today maintain that the halakhic rules (i.e. matrilineal descent) are valid and binding." Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia
• "A person’s status as a Jew is completely dependant on the mother." Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » Judaism Passed Through the Mother
• "The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish." Who is a Jew, according to the Torah?

So, if God placed a viable fetus in the womb of Mary, then that would violate Scripture, and it would also mean that any woman could have been the mother of Jesus, even one outside the prophecies of God concerning the Messianic lineage.

Source: Did God place Jesus as a fetus in the womb of Mary? | CARM.org

 

[farouk]

I have to say that all these threads setting out supposedly to disprove the very central Biblical truth of God in Three Persons are doomed from the start to bring about a disagreeing response from all those who indeed follow the Scriptures. End of story.

 

[Taken]

I disagree. Why would God use a woman’s body at all? Why not use a cabbage patch?

I doubt whatever grows in a cabbage patch would be according to Roman Law a son of Abraham's descendent-ship or according to Jewish Law Descended from king David and entitled to sit on his throne in Jerusalem...would make it pretty difficult to have a kingdom on Earth for 1,000 years...without a throne or entitlement to Abraham's Land without being a LAWFUL heir.

So what exactly do you disagree with?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I doubt whatever grows in a cabbage patch would be according to Roman Law a son of Abraham's descendent-ship or according to Jewish Law Descended from king David and entitled to sit on his throne in Jerusalem...would make it pretty difficult to have a kingdom on Earth for 1,000 years...without a throne or entitlement to Abraham's Land without being a LAWFUL heir.

So what exactly do you disagree with?

I added an article to my post above.

 

[ChristisGod]

Not reading all that and then guess your intent and point.

So what is your point to my post?

The point in the link to the other thread is prior to the Incarnation Jesus has always been the Son from eternity just the same as the Father being who He is from eternity.

 

[Taken]

I added an article to my post above.

Ya ok. First few sentences wishy washy. Definite no...based on NOT sure.

Already provided a few scriptures.
Did you not read...Jesus' Body had nothing to do with man?
And nothing do do with man's blood?
How do you think a "human" fetus is cared for in the womb without blood?

God is a Spirit. He did not fertalize Marys egg.

Why do you think that so necessary for Jesus to be a human?

 

[Taken]

The point in the link to the other thread is prior to the Incarnation Jesus has always been the Son from eternity just the same as the Father being who He is from eternity.

Ok. Your point?

 

[Enoch111]

but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth.

All of this is true.

So janc2 why don't you give it up? Since you cannot comprehend the Trinity, why waste your time (and the time of others) in this useless blather? Just say "I don't believe God" and move on.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Ya ok. First few sentences wishy washy. Definite no...based on NOT sure.

Already provided a few scriptures.
Did you not read...Jesus' Body had nothing to do with man?
And nothing do do with man's blood?
How do you think a "human" fetus is cared for in the womb without blood?

God is a Spirit. He did not fertalize Marys egg.

Why do you think that so necessary for Jesus to be a human?

I think you're misinterpreting "not of blood."

God is a Spirit who supernaturally heals people's physical bodies--the spiritual affecting the physical! I know, because He healed my body.

Jesus had to be human because He had to be born under the law as we are.... Only humans are under the law.

Gal 3:4-5--When the time came to completion, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
.

 

[amadeus]

On a forum that is based on "Christian Theology," we begin with the idea of the Trinity, and we predicate our arguments on the assumption that Jesus was and is God. So you're really on the wrong forum.

Considering what you say in your second paragraph, your first paragraph is a strange thing. You say begin with "the idea of the Trinity" a as if that were a most important thing in the scriptures. Even many Trinitarians do not make embracing the Trinity doctrine a primary or necessary thing in order to love God and to stay on His side for salvation's sake. Jesus speaks of the two great commandments and he speaks of seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, but never does he put that kind of emphasis on a Trinity.

As to this forum being based on "Christian Theology", aren't you trying to impose your definitions and beliefs on the forum? You not even a moderator, much less an owner, so perhaps you should be more careful in your wording. I do not believe there is any stated definition of the "Christian Theology" forum nor a written description of what it should or should not contain.. Try going a little slower!

That being said, I'm always interested in engaging any question, Christian or not. The argument that an omnipotent God can be revealed in the limited sphere of the world and in the limited sphere of humanity is not unthinkable, except for those who try to impose their own human thoughts on what God can or cannot do. Logically, an infinite God can reveal Himself in finite forms. That is the very basis of the word of God, that God's ideas can be expressed in the limited language of man.

 

[Grailhunter]

Well we don't all say the same! lol
Catholics have spoken on this forum, saying Jesus is a Human man, with Mary's DNA - LOL
Others call Jesus a human...that would be Dust.
Others call him a man...
( well He came Expressly Looking Like a Man)....so I would not expect anyone to call Him an elephant!
Legally, He was a male child of Mary and Joseph....Legally- Jewish & Roman Law.

Spiritually...God Declared: God would be A Father to Him...And He would be A Son to the Father.

Heb 1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Taken
The trinitarian formula between the Protestants and the Catholics are not that different. There would be more differences between Protestant denominations than between the "common formula" and what is believed by most Protestants and Catholics.
Spiritual Son and the only begotten Son. We should not need to argue over what the words begotten and conceived means. Son of man and Son of God and Lord and Savior to us.

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him swaddling clothes. and laid him in a manger; because there was no room in the inn.
All words and phrases that would be consistent with the events of producing a child.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Considering what you say in your second paragraph, your first paragraph is a strange thing. You say begin with "the idea of the Trinity" a as if that were a most important thing in the scriptures. Even many Trinitarians do not make embracing the Trinity doctrine a primary or necessary thing in order to love God and to stay on His side for salvation's sake. Jesus speaks of the two great commandments and he speaks of seeking first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, but never does he put that kind of emphasis on a Trinity.

As to this forum being based on "Christian Theology", aren't you trying to impose your definitions and beliefs on the forum? You not even a moderator, much less an owner, so perhaps you should be more careful in your wording. I do not believe there is any stated definition of the "Christian Theology" forum nor a written description of what it should or should not contain.. Try going a little slower!

I've been on 2 forums, among others, over the last 20 years. One was unmoderated, and the other moderated. I've never seen where there was a consensus that the Trinity is not a major element in Christian orthodoxy. Arianism is a heresy. Docetism is a heresy.

Now, if you're talking about Oneness Theology, you do have a point. There have been a number of otherwise-orthodox Christians, in modern times, who believe in Modalism, or Sabellionism. However, most of those who believe that Jesus was not God are Unitarians or the like.

I'm not speaking as a moderator, nor did I claim to do so. I was speaking my opinion, and I stand by it. To state that Jesus was not God is *not* Christian orthodoxy, and does not, in my opinion, belong on a Christian Theology forum if that forum is doctrinallly orthodox.

As to how the Bible itself frames the importance of the Trinitarian argument, I would agree that the word "Trinity" is not mentioned. But the importance of Jesus' Deity is illustrated by such statements *Jesus himself made* stating that he and his Father were "one."

Forgiveness for humanity is predicated on the deity of Christ. Christ had to be God forgiving humanity, and not God operating through a flawed human agent, nor even through a supposedly perfect human agent.

It had to be *God Himself* forgiving humanity because it was God against whom sin is defined, and therefore God who must forgive sin. Furthermore, unless God is the one intervening on behalf of sinful humanity, God is unable to give His Spirit, and our New Nature, as the basis of our salvation. Jesus, as strictly a man, could not do that.