Very big GAP in the trinity

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amadeus

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I've been on 2 forums, among others, over the last 20 years. One was unmoderated, and the other moderated. I've never seen where there was a consensus that the Trinity is not a major element in Christian orthodoxy. Arianism is a heresy. Docetism is a heresy.
I have been on not less than a dozen forums in the past 20 years. I don't normally even use words like Arianism or Docetism [I would have to look up the meanings again to understand them.] I grew up Catholic and served as an altar boy until I finished high school in 1961. That was my trinitarian background done without a Bible as the nuns did not use one and I did not own one until 1976 when God drew me to Him in the Oneness, Jesus Only church. There I learned to read the Bible and there I was taught how it is according to them. I was with them for 11 years, which ended in 1987. Since then I have been neither Trinity nor Oneness as per the UPC [United Pentecostal Church]. I have no designation for myself... unless it be a follower of Christ. Christian? Yes, I would say so, but I don't like what some bearing that label manifest...
Now, if you're talking about Oneness Theology, you do have a point. There have been a number of otherwise-orthodox Christians, in modern times, who believe in Modalism, or Sabellionism. However, most of those who believe that Jesus was not God are Unitarians or the like.
There are members of this forum who have supported just about every doctrine among Bible readers you have ever encountered. If they are too radical for me, I usually avoid them. For me radical is displaying something very far away from what Jesus would do... as I understand it. Some of the best Christian examples are often seen, according to me, among those very often called 'cultists' by others.

I'm not speaking as a moderator, nor did I claim to do so. I was speaking my opinion, and I stand by it. To state that Jesus was not God is *not* Christian orthodoxy, and does not, in my opinion, belong on a Christian Theology forum if that forum is doctrinallly orthodox.
Indeed, what is orthodox? What is Christian? Which sub-forum a person is on does not usually bother me unless they try to debate on a prayer or praise forum. For your information I do believe that Jesus is God, but likely many would call my way of expressing it unorthodox!
As to how the Bible itself frames the importance of the Trinitarian argument, I would agree that the word "Trinity" is not mentioned. But the importance of Jesus' Deity is illustrated by such statements *Jesus himself made* stating that he and his Father were "one."
Yes, they are one and if and when we become one in Him and He one with us as per his prayer in John 17 would we then also be gods? Would we have moved from Oneness to Trinity to Multiplicity? Only questions for thought. No need to answer them. Simply consider them!
Forgiveness for humanity is predicated on the deity of Christ. Christ had to be God forgiving humanity, and not God operating through a flawed human agent, nor even through a supposedly perfect human agent.
So you say. I won't as I really don't know. Do I need to know in order to believe in God and His Son and to follow as I should? What does it mean to live for God by faith rather than by knowledge, when ... "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."?
It had to be *God Himself* forgiving humanity because it was God against whom sin is defined, and therefore God who must forgive sin. Furthermore, unless God is the one intervening on behalf of sinful humanity, God is unable to give His Spirit, and our New Nature, as the basis of our salvation. Jesus, as strictly a man, could not do that.
I agree that God is the one who needs to forgive us since He is the One who set the whole thing up. On the other things, I am not so sure at all...
 

justbyfaith

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Luk 1:41, And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42, And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43, And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
 

Taken

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I think you're misinterpreting "not of blood."

Ok.
Then say what you think is rightly representing...
NOT of blood,
NOT of will of the flesh,
NOT of the will of man,
Which were born, but of God.

(You're a human...
Were you born not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man...?
But were born but of God?)

Did you come out from God?
Jesus did.

John 1:
[13] Which were born not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jesus had to be human because He had to be born under the law as we are....

Already addressed He was under the Law.
 

Grailhunter

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Ok.
Then say what you think is rightly representing...
NOT of blood,
NOT of will of the flesh,
NOT of the will of man,
Which were born, but of God.

(You're a human...
Were you born not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man...?
But were born but of God?)

Did you come out from God?
Jesus did.

John 1:
[13] Which were born not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Already addressed He was under the Law.
Do you need a lecture on not forming a religion on one verse. Do you hate your mother and father? Is it really an option for you to sell your daughter into concubinage? The whole storyline is about the Son of God delivered by a woman. The question I have is, do you have problems with women. Christ could have appeared full grown on a mountain, if He was just of God. But no no...the theme is God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That means something different than....Hey a God took a trip to earth! There is a sense of sacrifice that He gave His own Son. Then you got those that believe that God so loved the world that He went to earth and was crucified!
 

Prayer Warrior

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John 1:
[13] Which were born not blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that Jesus was "born not of blood"? Here's the scripture you're quoting in context.

John 1:9-13-- There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

When you read John 1:13 in context, you can see that this verse is saying that those who become children of God (believers in Jesus Christ) are not born of blood.... This is not talking about Jesus.
 
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Grailhunter

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I think I need chapter and verse on the passage that you think says that we ought to do so.
lol Your just being funny...right! Christian do not sell their daughters into concubinage, but the Jews did and it was regulated by the Mosaic Law. Please learn the Mosaic Law.
 

justbyfaith

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lol Your just being funny...right! Christian do not sell their daughters into concubinage, but the Jews did and it was regulated by the Mosaic Law. Please learn the Mosaic Law.
Give me chapter and verse. Because I think you're lying. And I also want to see the context if it is in the Bible.
 
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Taken

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Taken
The trinitarian formula between the Protestants and the Catholics are not that different.

Not so sure about that to agree with you.

There would be more differences between Protestant denominations than between the "common formula" and what is believed by most Protestants and Catholics.


Maybe you could show the conflicting formulas.

Spiritual Son and the only begotten Son. We should not need to argue over what the words begotten and conceived means. Son of man and Son of God and Lord and Savior to us.

To us? We have more knowledge...which is an advantage, but also a disadvantage in discussion, of what They were saying at a particular time, based on their limited knowledge at a particular time.(considering what they knew, keeps the ORDER in perspective.)

Beginning with the Word of God being in Gods mouth, coming forth out from God, to the Word of God being put in Mary's womb and she delivering, the Son of man...(that men could see) and who "Would be Called" the Son of God...that was not wide known then...or that He would be Revealed the Christ...that was not wide known then.
It was the Son of man Mary delivered.... and because men received more knowledge, there is a whole new doctrine being preached....
Mary is the mother of God, and Christ shall Return....
When following the ORDER of Scripture, it says no such thing....which is turning a Truth into a Lie.

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him swaddling clothes. and laid him in a manger; because there was no room in the inn.
All words and phrases that would be consistent with the events of producing a child.

No that is birthing a child.

I have not addressed begotten and conceived...But can.

Begotten meant, child of a man.
(Like many words the meaning has been changed to include what was not included, and today some people say begotten can also include the child of a woman.)
That word was used in Scripture as applicable to God, when He said this Day I have begotten my Son.

Jesus reiterated, and posted the Scripture of Jesus saying He came forth out from God.

Conceived simply means pregnant.
Women are pregnant IN the womb.

Conception is where the "production/producing begins"
A sperm entering a Woman...when did that happen ? It didn't. That is made up fantacy.

A sperm travels to the females Fallopian tubes
Attaches to one of her eggs, fertilizing the egg and travels down to the Womb and she is then pregnant.
When did Gods seed fertalized Mary seed?
And, wasn't it Angel's that we're punished for mating with human females?
And if their act invoked punishment...then God would inturn do the same thing? Eh...

God DID NOT require the seed of a woman, nor was that ever taught.

Expressly, her blood had nothing to Do with the babe in her womb, as I already revealed in Scripture.
Human fetuses Expressly rely on A human females blood, filtered through a placenta, for feeding and waste.

So with a study of Scripture in Context AND order...Mary birthed a son, whose body was Prepared of God, with pure blood, not human tainted blood....and He was revealed in the Likeness as A man. Looked like a man, called a man, legally recorded according to man's law, as her son) but was God in the flesh.

On the flip...Bruce Jenner Revealed himself in the Likeness As a female...yet is a male beneath all that surgery and toxic fillers.

Ya, to each his own....if they want to preach their Lord God is a Human created out of Dust of the Earth, grew inside Mary's womb being fed via tainted blood, and Believe Human men can forgive their sins and save them from their sin....That's them...Not me. I'll take my chances with what Scripture actually teaches.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Grailhunter

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Not so sure about that to agree with you.




Maybe you could show the conflicting formulas.



To us? We have more knowledge...which is an advantage, but also a disadvantage in discussion, of what They were saying at a particular time, based on their limited knowledge at a particular time.(considering what they knew, keeps the ORDER in perspective.)

Beginning with the Word of God being in Gods mouth, coming forth out from God, to the Word of God being put in Mary's womb and she delivering, the Son of man...(that men could see) and who "Would be Called" the Son of God...that was not wide known then...or that He would be Revealed the Christ...that was not wide known then.
It was the Son of man Mary delivered.... and because men received more knowledge, there is a whole new doctrine being preached....
Mary is the mother of God, and Christ shall Return....
When following the ORDER of Scripture, it says no such thing....which is turning a Truth into a Lie.



No that is birthing a child.

I have not addressed begotten and conceived...But can.

Begotten meant, child of a man.
(Like many words the meaning has been changed to include what was not included, and today some people say begotten can also include the child of a woman.)
That word was used in Scripture as applicable to God, when He said this Day I have begotten my Son.

Jesus reiterated, and posted the Scripture of Jesus saying He came forth out from God.

Conceived simply means pregnant.
Women are pregnant IN the womb.

Conception is where the "production/producing begins"
A sperm entering a Woman...when did that happen ? It didn't. That is made up fantacy.

A sperm travels to the females Fallopian tubes
Attaches to one of her eggs, fertilizing the egg and travels down to the Womb and she is then pregnant.
When did Gods seed fertalized Mary seed?
And, wasn't it Angel's that we're punished for mating with human females?
And if their act invoked punishment...then God would inturn do the same thing? Eh...

God DID NOT require the seed of a woman, nor was that ever taught.

Expressly, her blood had nothing to Do with the babe in her womb, as I already revealed in Scripture.
Human fetuses Expressly rely on A human females blood, filtered through a placenta, for feeding and waste.

So with a study of Scripture in Context AND order...Mary birthed a son, whose body was Prepared of God, with pure blood, not human tainted blood....and He was revealed in the Likeness as A man. Looked like a man, called a man, legally recorded according to man's law, as her son) but was God in the flesh.

On the flip...Bruce Jenner Revealed himself in the Likeness As a female...yet is a male beneath all that surgery and toxic fillers.

Ya, to each his own....if they want to preach their Lord God is a Human created out of Dust of the Earth, grew inside Mary's womb being fed via tainted blood, and Believe Human men can forgive their sins and save them from their sin....That's them...Not me. I'll take my chances with what Scripture actually teaches.

Glory to God,
Taken
Not a lot of what you are saying makes any sense and I have tried to explain it as simply as I can.
I am not the guy to talk circles and non-sense to.
If you want to talk about a topic, pick one and talk straight.
 

Truther

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The answer from the Trinitarians to the question why the Messiah, when he is God, has grown in wisdom and prayed, is: "Because he is man".
They say that God get a real human character through his incarnation; but they also say that God the Son was still God while he was man on earth. I repeat, they say that God the Son in heaven was still God while he was man on earth. First, this claim subliminally teaches a second separated person, this means that God the Son cannot be the Messiah and secondly, God the Son who was man on earth worshipped Himself.
All incarnationists, whether trinitarian OR oneness(both are cousins), teach God incarnated.

They are merely fighting over their version of a "hypostatic union" phylosophy.

The RCC started this mess and her protestant daughters are bickering over her teachings.

They need to look at the commentary laden origins of their H/U teachings and fix it.
 

justbyfaith

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All incarnationists, whether trinitarian OR oneness(both are cousins), teach God incarnated.

They are merely fighting over their version of a "hypostatic union" phylosophy.

The RCC started this mess and her protestant daughters are bickering over her teachings.

They need to look at the commentary laden origins of their H/U teachings and fix it.

Luk 1:41, And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42, And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43, And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
 

justbyfaith

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@Truther,

Do you agree with holy scripture that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5)?

Even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21).

Now see my post above.
 

101G

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another strawman........................

Jesus said the following while physically walking this earth.

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
Not saying that you're right or wrong, but answer me this. Jesus as you said was on earth dwelling is a flesh and blood body. and was in heaven, (spirit) at the same time. now, he whom you called the son was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') according to Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" and G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') means,
1. to make empty, while in flesh on earth. so is this the same one person on earth as in heaven? if so remember he G2758 κενόω kenoo himself while in flesh, so did 1/3 of the trinity G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō')? while in flesh, or did all the trinity person? remember, all three who are ONE "Spirit", so did a third of the Spirit G2758 κενόω kenoo in flesh?. or did all of the Spirit G2758 κενόω kenoo in flesh? for God is "a" Spirit per John 4:24a

Looking to hear your answer.

All of this is true.

So janc2 why don't you give it up? Since you cannot comprehend the Trinity, why waste your time (and the time of others) in this useless blather? Just say "I don't believe God" and move on.

Maybe you can answer the same question too, and help Christophany out by rending your answer.

PICJAG
 

ChristisGod

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All incarnationists, whether trinitarian OR oneness(both are cousins), teach God incarnated.

They are merely fighting over their version of a "hypostatic union" phylosophy.

The RCC started this mess and her protestant daughters are bickering over her teachings.

They need to look at the commentary laden origins of their H/U teachings and fix it.
Not true its taught in several passages in Scripture. YHWH said in the OT that He would come and dwell among His people.
You should believe the Scriptures not what you have been taught by others who have mislead you.

Zech 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.
10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

Jer 23:5-6
"The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteousness
.


Is 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isa 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Mic 5:2
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."

Dan 7:9-14
I kept looking Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 "A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Mal 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

Mal 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zech 12:1-10
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'

6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Matt 1:22-24
22 Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

hope this helps !!!
 

ChristisGod

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Not saying that you're right or wrong, but answer me this. Jesus as you said was on earth dwelling is a flesh and blood body. and was in heaven, (spirit) at the same time. now, he whom you called the son was G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') according to Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" and G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') means,
1. to make empty, while in flesh on earth. so is this the same one person on earth as in heaven? if so remember he G2758 κενόω kenoo himself while in flesh, so did 1/3 of the trinity G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō')? while in flesh, or did all the trinity person? remember, all three who are ONE "Spirit", so did a third of the Spirit G2758 κενόω kenoo in flesh?. or did all of the Spirit G2758 κενόω kenoo in flesh? for God is "a" Spirit per John 4:24a

Looking to hear your answer.



Maybe you can answer the same question too, and help Christophany out by rending your answer.

PICJAG
Jesus Christ did not empty Himself of any of His attributes as God. Nor did Jesus Christ empty Himself of His divinity. But what you don't understand is the fact that "omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience" ARE His attributes. What Jesus Christ did do because He is God was render or make void the prerogatives of His attributes which He has always had.

Look at Philippians 2:6 closely. "who, (meaning Jesus Christ) ALTHOUGH (or in spite of the fact) that He existed in the form of God, ended up taking the form of a servant, by being made in the likeness of men." He was God all along but suspended the use of His attributes by taking the form of a servant/man.

This is also why the Apostle Paul at Philippians 2:1-4 explains to the Philippians not to be selfish, conceited and put others first before yourself just like Jesus Christ did when Paul says at vs 5 to have the same attitude as Jesus Christ.

hope this helps !!!
 

101G

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Jesus Christ did not empty Himself of any of His attributes as God. Nor did Jesus Christ empty Himself of His divinity. But what you don't understand is the fact that "omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience" ARE His attributes. What Jesus Christ did do because He is God was render or make void the prerogatives of His attributes which He has always had.
well that's your first ERROR, because being omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience is what make God God, now his nature didn't change but his attributes did. now, he did empty himself.

now the second part of my question, since Jesus is 1/3 of what you call the trinity, is the Person in John 1:3 is the Same person in Isaiah 44:24 who made all things ... yes or No. ..... then we can contuine.

PICJAG.
 

ChristisGod

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well that's your first ERROR, because being omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience is what make God God, now his nature didn't change but his attributes did. now, he did empty himself.

now the second part of my question, since Jesus is 1/3 of what you call the trinity, is the Person in John 1:3 is the Same person in Isaiah 44:24 who made all things ... yes or No. ..... then we can contuine.

PICJAG.
more fallacious statements. there is no 1/3 of God.