Virgin Mary Had Other Children After Jesus

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Mungo

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[/QUOTE]
Again, not looking for circle talk. Looking for a definitive answer addressing the Protestant beliefs specifically.[/QUOTE]

Nothing circular. Just pointing out that quotes from official sources of the Catholic Church trump quotes from non-Catholics.
 

Grailhunter

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Again, not looking for circle talk. Looking for a definitive answer addressing the Protestant beliefs specifically.[/QUOTE]

Nothing circular. Just pointing out that quotes from official sources of the Catholic Church trump quotes from non-Catholics.[/QUOTE]
I am looking forward to you being honest. I am looking forward to you or BOL producing the official Catholic doctrine that states plainly that there is salvation outside the church and mentions Protestantism specific. So far what has been provided does not address the issue and you do your best to skirt the issue. Either produce it or say you cannot.
 

BreadOfLife

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This is very simple. Can you post an official statement of the Church that says salvation is between the believer and Christ and that Church acknowledges that those in Protestant denominations are saved. Looking for the words that should be there....Protestant and salvation. Now I want and I hope you can find this...As they say git'er done.
The Catholic Church teaches as the Bible does, so you will NOT find anything in the Catechism about ANYBODY being "saved".
You will find instead - as the Scriptures teach - that Salvation is a process, not a one-time, slam dunk event.

THIS is what the Bible teaches about Salvation:
We, as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

As I have repeatedly explained to you already - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus covers ALL those (including Protestants) who, "... through no fault of their own do not know Christ or His Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience."

NOT sure which part you don't understand.
 
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BreadOfLife

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We have been over this before.
If your memory is so short... "You" go back over you Accusatory posts. Try to find the posts, where you are not asking another a question, then answering FOR THEM.
WHY??
I'm not the one making this false claim - YOU are.

The onus is on YOU to prove it . . .
 

Joseph77

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The multitude of errors was long ago exposed, per Scripture, and historically. No need to re-hash those.

Everything coming from the false gospel, remains false. It has not changed.
 

BreadOfLife

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LOL... Your Carnal blather is almost as comical as your Catholic teaching.
I have never said that.
Why are you making up LIES?

How many "distinct persons" are you?
* The one who calls himself the BreadOfLife, who isn't, but lies on this forum?
* The one who goes to Catholic Church, with another Name, and confesses all his lying.?
* The one who proclaims he received the Holy Spirit, Without repentance and Without Confessing Belief in God and Christ?
* The one who gives a failing attempt to argue Spiritual subjects with your Carnal understanding?

I have never said that.
Another of your LIES.

What an idiotic thing to say...
Congratulating me FOR YOUR LIES!
^ LOL!!
Okay, soooooo . . .

a) Is the Trinity 3 distinct Persons in ONE God?
b) Was the Son incarnated as a human being?


If your answer is "No" - then I was right about what you believe, regardless of all your ranting and raving . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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The multitude of errors was long ago exposed, per Scripture, and historically. No need to re-hash those.

Everything coming from the false gospel, remains false. It has not changed.
Translation:
"Duhhhhhh, I can't think of anything - but I'll keep insisting that I'm right!"

That's what I thought . . .
 

Grailhunter

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The Catholic Church teaches as the Bible does, so you will NOT find anything in the Catechism about ANYBODY being "saved".
You will find instead - as the Scriptures teach - that Salvation is a process, not a one-time, slam dunk event.

THIS is what the Bible teaches about Salvation:
We, as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.

However, because Salvation is a LIFELONG process – it ALSO says that I am BEING SAVED (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
This is Ongoing Sanctification – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we cooperate with his grace.

Because of this, I have the hope that I WILL BE SAVED (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
This is Final Sanctification/Salvation – We die and go to heaven having endured to the end.

As I have repeatedly explained to you already - Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus covers ALL those (including Protestants) who, "... through no fault of their own do not know Christ or His Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience."

NOT sure which part you don't understand.
In this post what you have stated is the beliefs of Protestants.
But the topic is about an official statement that says that the Catholic Church recognizes salvation outside the Catholic Church....specifically mentioning Protestants.
 

BreadOfLife

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In this post what you have stated is the beliefs of Protestants.
But the topic is about an official statement that says that the Catholic Church recognizes salvation outside the Catholic Church....specifically mentioning Protestants.
I don't know HOW many times I have to post paragraphs 846 and 847 fro the Catechism of the Catholic church that outline the teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus before you understand that this INCLUDES Protestants.

Why
are you being so obtuse about this??
Is there a word or a phrase you're having difficulty with??
 

101G

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Don't mean to get off the subject which I see it has, but you said something intresting,
The Catholic Church teaches as the Bible does, so you will NOT find anything in the Catechism about ANYBODY being "saved".
You will find instead - as the Scriptures teach - that Salvation is a process, not a one-time, slam dunk event.

THIS is what the Bible teaches about Salvation:
We, as Christians are ALREADY SAVED (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
This is Initial Salvation – God give us the initial grace to believe.
Question, is not a gift given once? and two Sanctification is ongoing, but not salvation. and in the HOPE is why we have "FAITH", for Faith takes the place of our hope in recieving what we hope for, scripture, Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it".

also,
Okay, soooooo . . .

a) Is the Trinity 3 distinct Persons in ONE God?
b) Was the Son incarnated as a human being?

A. no, there is no three "persons" nor is there's a trinity.
B. no, again, because the Son is God himself "diversified" in flesh. supportive scripture to prove my point. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

so I ask, in the use of anthropomorphic language is the ARM a separate enity from the body? yes or no.

looking to hear your answer. you can answer one at a time or both.

PICJAG.
 

Grailhunter

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I don't know HOW many times I have to post paragraphs 846 and 847 fro the Catechism of the Catholic church that outline the teaching of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus before you understand that this INCLUDES Protestants.

Why
are you being so obtuse about this??
Is there a word or a phrase you're having difficulty with??
Well how many religions do you think these address?
I am looking for the word Protestant.
The politics of it all is that they are kind of addressing the issue and as I said I believe the Catholic Church has softened it view on it....but...but...then we can get into the topic of the Catholic beliefs of the middle ages. You and I both know that the Catholics labeled the Protestants heretics. Catholic views are not static....thank God. Can you learn anything if you stuck. Cannot God reveal new information and understandings...that is what make the Catholics different than the Protestants....2000 years of walking with Christ. So regardless of how heated things get between you and me, there are times I will stand with you.

On the not by work--but by faith thread I am defending the Catholics. You need to understand although you and I have went nose to nose on things...I love the Catholics a lot, but I also love the Protestants. I defend the faith. After all this time Christians should learn to love one another. So at times I am defending the Catholics and at times I am defending the Protestants.
 

BreadOfLife

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Don't mean to get off the subject which I see it has, but you said something intresting,

Question, is not a gift given once? and two Sanctification is ongoing, but not salvation. and in the HOPE is why we have "FAITH", for Faith takes the place of our hope in recieving what we hope for, scripture, Romans 8:24 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Romans 8:25 "But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it".
You left out verse 24 which states:
Rom. 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

This tells us that we were initially given the grace to be saved and that we are BEING saved - and therein lies our hope.
I have showed you what the BIBLE says about salvation.
This is not something that the Catholic Church "invented" or something that I made up on my own.

If you are having difficulty with it - take it up with God . . .
A. no, there is no three "persons" nor is there's a trinity.
B. no, again, because the Son is God himself "diversified" in flesh. supportive scripture to prove my point. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

so I ask, in the use of anthropomorphic language is the ARM a separate enity from the body? yes or no.

looking to hear your answer. you can answer one at a time or both.

PICJAG.
FALSE.

The Son IS God but He is not "diversified" in the flesh. That is heresy - Sabellianism/Modalism to be precise.
e is ONE essence (God) manifested in Three Distinct Persons.

Jesus mentions the 3 Persons of the Trinity in Matthew's Gospel:
Matt. 28:19

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

The Trinity is corroborated repeatedly throughout the Scriptures:
(Gen. 1:26, Matt. 28:19, John 15:26, 1 Cor. 12:4-6, 2 Cor. 13:14, 1 John 5:7, Eph. 4:6, Psalm 68:5, Mal. 2:10, Isa. 63:16, 2 Cor. 1:3-4, John 3:16, John 8:41, 1 Thess. 3:13, Isa. 7:14, Isa. 9:6, John 1:1, John 1:3, John 8:58, John 10:30, John 15:9, John 20:28, Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 4:4, Phil. 2:6, Col. 2:9, 1 Tim. 3:16, Heb. 1:8, Tit. 2:13, John 14:16-18, Luke 12:10, 2 Cor. 3:17, 2 Cor. 13:5, John 14:23, Acts 5:3-4)

If you're looking for the word "Trinity", you won't find it - but the teaching is ALL through the Bible . . .
Then again, you won't find the word "Bible", either . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Well how many religions do you think these address?
I am looking for the word Protestant.
The politics of it all is that they are kind of addressing the issue and as I said I believe the Catholic Church has softened it view on it....but...but...then we can get into the topic of the Catholic beliefs of the middle ages. You and I both know that the Catholics labeled the Protestants heretics. Catholic views are not static....thank God. Can you learn anything if you stuck. Cannot God reveal new information and understandings...that is what make the Catholics different than the Protestants....2000 years of walking with Christ. So regardless of how heated things get between you and me, there are times I will stand with you.

On the not by work--but by faith thread I am defending the Catholics. You need to understand although you and I have went nose to nose on things...I love the Catholics a lot, but I also love the Protestants. I defend the faith. After all this time Christians should learn to love one another. So at times I am defending the Catholics and at times I am defending the Protestants.
Actually - you are mistaken.
Let me explain . . .

The Protestants of the 16th century WERE heretics, whereas MOST Protestants today are NOT. To be considered a "heretic", you must have been a Catholic - like your Protestant Fathers were when they left the Church. A person BORN into Protestantism or one that was never a Catholic and became a Protestant is NOT a heretic by definition.

Hope that helps . . .
 

Grailhunter

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Actually - you are mistaken.
Let me explain . . .

The Protestants of the 16th century WERE heretics, whereas MOST Protestants today are NOT. To be considered a "heretic", you must have been a Catholic - like your Protestant Fathers were when they left the Church. A person BORN into Protestantism or one that was never a Catholic and became a Protestant is NOT a heretic by definition.

Hope that helps . . .
I kind of agree with you.
Merriam-Webster
Definition of heretic

1.religion : a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma (see DOGMA sense
2
.especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who refuses to acknowledge or accept a revealed truth The church regards them as heretics.
3. one who differs in opinion from an accepted belief or doctrine : NONCONFORMIST

The definition includes what you are saying and I do agree there is a difference between one leaving the Church and someone of another denomination.
 

101G

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You left out verse 24 which states:
Rom. 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
Nope I suggest you go back and read post #610.
This tells us that we were initially given the grace to be saved and that we are BEING saved - and therein lies our hope.
I have showed you what the BIBLE says about salvation.
This is not something that the Catholic Church "invented" or something that I made up on my own.

If you are having difficulty with it - take it up with God . . .
I took it up with God and he didn't see it your way. for a gift is, ... well let him, God himself tell you, Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance". God said he's no "Indian giver", to use a pharse. so that answer you gave, God just muted it.

FALSE.

The Son IS God but He is not "diversified" in the flesh. That is heresy - Sabellianism/Modalism to be precise.
e is ONE essence (God) manifested in Three Distinct Persons.

Jesus mentions the 3 Persons of the Trinity in Matthew's Gospel:
Matt. 28:19

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
who told you that falsehood? Father is a title, I have it and many more has it, even the devil, he has that title also, the "Father of Lies". the same goes for son, a TITLE, which leaves the ONE TRUE PERSON, JESUS, the Holy Spirit. who holds both titles of "Father and Son.... :eek: so you struck out there.
The Trinity is corroborated repeatedly throughout the Scriptures:
which is another ERROR, now just to show you, lets take your first scripture on your list, Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth". NOW THIS, THE VERY NEXT VERSE. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them".

OK, BreadOfLife, how did God go from "US", and "OUR" to "HIS", and "HIM"? well that's bible. but well let the Lord Jesus, who cannot lie answer it for us, listen. while the Lord Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees concerning divorcement, he said this, Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female", see it BreadOfLife, "he" which is a single person designation. and now "HEAR" this, it was the Lord Jesus "he" himself who made them... lol... :eek: say what? yes, because as the diversity of himself, he G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') himself while in flesh. that eliminates any "separate" or second "person" lie, as you once said had roles to play. so that's strike #3. .... you're out.

now let's address Isaiah 63:5 and find out who the Son is. "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me". God's "OWN" arm? lets have a look see into the scriptures,

Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (READ THAT AGAIN).
Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him". HOLD the press. God's OWN arm is "he"

Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isaiah 53:5 "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

well, well, well, God's OWN are is him, him to come in flesh as the "Son". man this is too easy. the bible plainly states, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Who has believed? as in the parble of the sower, Luke 8:12 "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved". oops there it is, but Isaiah said, "Who hath believed our report?"

now BOL, you say, and I quote,
The Catholic Church teaches as the Bible does
so do these bible scriptures line up with three person? ... NO. for the Son is God himself in Flesh. supportive scripture, Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us". and John 4:24a states God is "A" Spirit, one Spirit, so, Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". So, BREAD, is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ two separate Spirits or the same ONE Spirit. and if you say the same Spirit, then Christ is the Father, if you say it's the same Spirit.

Looking to hear your answer.

PICJAG.
 

Illuminator

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So, BREAD, is the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ two separate Spirits or the same ONE Spirit. and if you say the same Spirit, then Christ is the Father, if you say it's the same Spirit.

Looking to hear your answer.

PICJAG.
A stupid non-sequitur. BofL is not saying any of that. The Three Divine Persons share the same substance, so they are not separate spirits. All Christians, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic, accept the verdicts of the Councils of Nicae, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon, who defended against attacks on the Trinity by "Bible alone" heretics. The Trinity is the most fundamental teaching common to all Christians and at the top of the hierarchy of truths. To argue against it is to argue against all of Christianity which is the case for made-in-America cults whose bizarre doctrines never existed until they were invented in the mid 18th century.
 
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101G

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A stupid non-sequitur. BofL is not saying any of that. The Three Divine Persons share the same substance, so they are not separate spirits. All Christians, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic, accept the verdicts of the Councils of Nicae, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon, who defended against attacks on the Trinity by "Bible alone" heretics. The Trinity is the most fundamental teaching common to all Christians and at the top of the hierarchy of truths. To argue against it is to argue against all of Christianity which is the case for made-in-America cults whose bizarre doctrines never existed until they were invented in the mid 18th century.
GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for your reply. second, you said this, "The Three Divine Persons share the same substance, so they are not separate spirits". correct, which he never said, but three persons, which I'm after... "PERSON". now since you and I know this, may I aske you a question that eliminate any persons. question, is this the same PERSON, listen carefully. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". as you said, "you and All Christians, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic, accept the verdicts of the Councils of Nicae, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon". and don't all of you agree that this is the Lord JESUS here in verse 3 of John chapter 1. and you say Jesus is the son correct, a separate "PERSON" from the Father correct. now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

ok Illuminator, lets shine some light on the subject here. is this the same person, here in Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:3 who made all things YES or NO?.

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, also note that the Person in Isaiah 44:24 said that he was "alone", and "by himself"........ :p meaning he didn't go through anyone to create anything, he was alone and by himself, meaning only he was there, ONE PERSON. now it's your choice, if you say no it's not the same person, then you have two "CREATORS" ...... :eek: or if you say yes, then there are no three person and the Lord Jesus is the Father who created it all...... :rolleyes:

so I'll be looking for your answer, and then we see if the fellows at the Councils of Nicae or anywhere else is correct on the trinity.... o_O

PICJAG.
 

Joseph77

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The angel said nothing about Mary to remain a virgin after the birth of Jesus, but scripture testified that Joseph knew Mary intimately after the birth of Jesus, meaning he had sex with his wife.
Those in cults who reject what the Bible says don't like this truth.
 

Grailhunter

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GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for your reply. second, you said this, "The Three Divine Persons share the same substance, so they are not separate spirits". correct, which he never said, but three persons, which I'm after... "PERSON". now since you and I know this, may I aske you a question that eliminate any persons. question, is this the same PERSON, listen carefully. John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". as you said, "you and All Christians, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic, accept the verdicts of the Councils of Nicae, Ephesus, Constantinople, and Chalcedon". and don't all of you agree that this is the Lord JESUS here in verse 3 of John chapter 1. and you say Jesus is the son correct, a separate "PERSON" from the Father correct. now this, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

ok Illuminator, lets shine some light on the subject here. is this the same person, here in Isaiah 44:24 and John 1:3 who made all things YES or NO?.

WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, also note that the Person in Isaiah 44:24 said that he was "alone", and "by himself"........ :p meaning he didn't go through anyone to create anything, he was alone and by himself, meaning only he was there, ONE PERSON. now it's your choice, if you say no it's not the same person, then you have two "CREATORS" ...... :eek: or if you say yes, then there are no three person and the Lord Jesus is the Father who created it all...... :rolleyes:

so I'll be looking for your answer, and then we see if the fellows at the Councils of Nicae or anywhere else is correct on the trinity.... o_O

PICJAG.
I get what your saying but your disagreement is not just with the Catholics. You have thousands and thousands of Protestant denominations that would disagree with you. Some believe that God the Father was the creator and some believe that God the Son was the creator. It is an old debate. Since the storyline in the Old Testament is not about God the Father, God the Son, and God the "Holy Spirit" interacting with each other and "Man" it would be the belief of some that it is one God in the Old Testament.
 

101G

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I get what your saying but your disagreement is not just with the Catholics. You have thousands and thousands of Protestant denominations that would disagree with you. Some believe that God the Father was the creator and some believe that God the Son was the creator. It is an old debate. Since the storyline in the Old Testament is not about God the Father, God the Son, and God the "Holy Spirit" interacting with each other and "Man" it would be the belief of some that it is one God in the Old Testament.
yes, that is true, for those who believe that there is a trinity is in ERROR, that's a man made Idea. the bible is plan as day when it comes to who is the Father, and the Son which are titles of the Holy Ghost.

It's simply been years of false teaching. well I'm questioning that belief. we have been believing a lie for so long until we accept it as truth. the only way to expose a lie is with the TRUTH, which I'm about. if the trinity is true then the scriptures will support it, but if not then it's a lie.

as the Holy Spirit said through his apostle Paul said, "I'm set to defend the gospel", I'm likewise. people need to know the TRUTH.

Now I'm not about argument, but discussion, and discussion leads to the truth. and the truth is not hid, for many trinitarians say the Godhead is a mystery, well, not the bible, Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". and there is no excuse to knowing the truth, a mystery that contuines is just an excuse of NOT knowing the truth.

PICJAG.
 
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