I find it hard to read Romans 8 and yet to think that I and other readers, trusting what it says, can or should yet feel doubtful about salvation and eternal security.
Warnings to the churches about gaining eternal death
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It definitely helps in the process of understanding the doctrine. I would just say that it doesn't present an airtight case for it (whereas other passages do).
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I myself do appreciate that the Calvinist Perseverance of the Saints does follow logically from the previous propostions, but really it's the Scripture passages which underlie the various Calvinist propositions rather than the abstract logic itself that strengthen me and challenge me.
Same here.
I have posted somewhere on these boards, how the logic of TULIP leads me into the conclusive understanding of the free will and sovereignty of man.
So I'm not much for the logical suppositions of Calvinism either.
However, I do definitely see that scripture substantiates such a doctrine as POTS.
Here's some more logic:
"And Judas went and hanged himself." "Go thou and do likewise".
(But sound logic?
)
"And Judas went and hanged himself." "Go thou and do likewise".
(But sound logic?
)
I thought we had agreed that ...
INITIAL salvation is a far cry from FINAL salvation!
One is initially saved eternally (but can "choose" to lose it).
This is most beneficial to the new babes in Christ.
Encouraging and positive ... like John 3:16, etc.
Salvation is a process! ...just as... sanctification is a process!
The above is not referring to positional sanctification, which is:
God seals the BAC, which indicates He will be working on him.
And his guardian angel(s) will be aware of what's going on, etc.
.
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John 5:24 would teach us that (in a sense) initial salvation is final salvation...that upon believing we pass from death into everlasting life.
If one is initially saved eternally, then nothing can take salvation away; otherwise it isn't eternal, it is temporal.
Yes, it is one of the John 3:16 type of verses,
which we know is nonsense because it doesn't
specify what kind of belief is necessary,
e.g. it doesn't rule out simple intellectual belief,
which most kids have in Sunday School, right?
IMO, these types of verses are the little hooks
used to catch the unsuspecting little fishes!
They offer nothing but hope, confidence, optimism, etc.
Later, the Holy Spirit tries to illuminate these little fishes with deeper
understanding about what's involved over time as they grow and learn, etc.
What dost thou thinkest about "counting the cost" of following Jesus
... (before really getting started?)?
.
Now there is a contradiction in the Bible unless there John 5:24 rules out a nominal, lukewarm, and shallow faith...i.e. mere mental assent to the tenets of the gospel...because Luke 8:13 declares that there are those who "believe for a while and then fall away."
It is also important to count the cost of being a disciple.
But I would say that there is a difference between being a disciple and being saved...a person can be one and not also be the other.
And also, the requirement for being a disciple is greater than the requirement for being saved...
while a person may fulfill the requirement for being a disciple and not be saved...
simply because the requirements are different for each one.
It is also important to count the cost of being a disciple.
But I would say that there is a difference between being a disciple and being saved...a person can be one and not also be the other.
And also, the requirement for being a disciple is greater than the requirement for being saved...
while a person may fulfill the requirement for being a disciple and not be saved...
simply because the requirements are different for each one.
Yes, this is the crux of the olde "Lordship Salvation" issue!
The more I've been involved, the more I see spiritual Truth
in the following (from a tract of mine) ...
If Jesus is our SAVIOR, then we need to treat Him as our LORD!
Paul and Peter both called Him several times, “LORD and Savior”.
If Jesus is LORD, we need to love and obey Him … Jesus said 4 times:
“Those who love Me will obey My commandments.” (John 14:15, 21, 23, 24).
Many Scriptures are very clear … obedience is NOT an option!
Pastors are responsible to God for WARNING His sheep about sin!
“God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives. Therefore, anyone
who refuses to live by these rules … is rejecting God” (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8)
“It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness
than to know it, and then reject the command to live a holy life” (2 Peter 2:21)
.
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Yes, we obey Jesus because we love Him.
But we do not obey Jesus to prove to other people, to ourselves, or to God, that we love Him.
We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Because we are forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50).
Because He has shed abroad His love in our hearts via the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5), through our faith in Him (Galatians 3:14).
So then, our obeying His commandments is not based in legalism; and ought not to be based in legalism.
We do not obey Him in order to earn our salvation; and we do not obey Him to prove that we are Christians.
We obey Him because we are Christians....because He has placed his love in our hearts through faith in Him and His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.
But we do not obey Jesus to prove to other people, to ourselves, or to God, that we love Him.
We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).
Because we are forgiven much (Luke 7:36-50).
Because He has shed abroad His love in our hearts via the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5), through our faith in Him (Galatians 3:14).
So then, our obeying His commandments is not based in legalism; and ought not to be based in legalism.
We do not obey Him in order to earn our salvation; and we do not obey Him to prove that we are Christians.
We obey Him because we are Christians....because He has placed his love in our hearts through faith in Him and His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.
But, you're not speaking to our last posts, and yours was ...
"But I would say that there is a difference between being a disciple
and being saved...a person can be one and not also be the other.
And also, the requirement for being a disciple
is greater than the requirement for being saved...
while a person may fulfill the requirement for being a disciple
and not be saved...simply because the requirements are different for each one."
.
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