Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

You keep repeating yourself saying that I said God isn't interested in me I never said that, it is your own opinion

Actually, you conveyed that yourself, just read your post below then see the Christ's words in red below.

How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[-Phil]

Is there free will if there isn’t a separate individual?
Is there a separate individual if there isn’t free will?

 

[Rightglory]

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

Here is another negative statement showing that you really don't know what you are saying.
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33)."
You are being directed to SEEK his kingdom and His righteousness. Why would God direct Himself to seek His own Kingdom, if He truly governs our wills.
You need to read scripture without those blinders you seem to be wearing.
Do you commit sin? Who is doing the sinning?
Is God going to dump a whole lot of believers in the last day as this texts says of believers? II Tim 4:1-5
This text categorically condemns your whole theory regarding the will of man.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

If this is so, then II Tim 4:1-5 is not addressing believers, but God. God is going to pull his controlling actions and actively condemn believers in this life, even though it was God who controlled their wills.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

You have yet to show that God controls the will of man. Scripture speaks diametrically opposite of your theory.
Here are some other texts for you to digest: I Tim 5:20. Is a believer sinning or is God sinning?
I Tim 4:12-13 - It would be ridiculous for Paul to state such a thing if God controls our wills, in this case Timothy's. Why would he need to exhort God to be faithful, to exhort, to love. in conduct?
II Tim 1:4-5 - this context is completely incongruous with your theory.

How many more do you need to show that your theory just does not fit scripture. It seems you might be one of those in the last day speaking fables to lure believers away from the Gospel.

 

[-Phil]

Adam ate from the ‘tree’ of the knowledge of good & evil, therein veiling the truth.

 

[Bible_Patrol]

Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

1. God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
   AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
   AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
   YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
   BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
   NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
   IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
   AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
   THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
   THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
   SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
   AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
   SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
   AND the firm fact is established
   THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)
2. Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted
   1. Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
      WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
      SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
      THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
      IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
      THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
      BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
      THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God
      1. The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities
      2. God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature
      3. Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
      4. Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will
      5. Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)
   2. Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
      SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
      AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
      THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)
      SINCE the only command carrying a punishment was the prohibition upon Adam against eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THUS a free will Adam could have disrupted God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind
      SO God could not conclude with certainty by declaring everything was good on the sixth day with a free will Adam in control roaming the Garden of Eden
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam could not be endowed with the attribute of free will
   3. The timeline of Adam knowing good and evil
      BEFORE Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew not good and evil
      AFTER Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEN Adam and Eve knew good and evil
      FOR the delineation is clarified when God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)
      YET based on the Word of God saying "has become" recorded in Genesis 3:22
      THEN Adam did not know good and evil before eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      SO Adam did not know good and evil when God issued the command "from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die!" (Genesis 2:17)
      THEREFORE at the time of eating, Adam listened and followed the last that he heard about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      WHICH Adam heard from Eve
      FOR God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17)
      SO Adam listened to Eve and Adam ate from the tree prior to knowing good and evil
      AND a person does good by obeying God; on the other hand, a person does evil by disobeying God
      SO free will choosing of good or choosing of evil is not the context
      AND action is the context
      SINCE good and evil are not known to Adam prior to eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
      THEREFORE it follows that Adam was not endowed with the attribute of free will
   4. The attribute of "joining" - marriage
      1. Lord Jesus says a topically very profound statement of "from the beginning of creation, [God] made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together let no man separate." (Mark 10:6-9)
      2. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Christ and the Bride of Christ
      3. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to marriage between "male and female" (creatures both)
      4. "God has joined together" is a clear reference by Jesus to Adam and Eve, the man and the woman
      5. God does the joining, while, on the other hand, man and woman are only the joyful recipients
      6. The facility of "joining" is not attributed to man and/or woman
      7. The facility of "joining" is attributed to God

For expanded topic coverage, please see this integral essay Almighty God's Awesome Creation In Amazing Splendor (not a ChristianityBoard.com link),

If anyone venture a reply to this thread, I encourage diligent care for it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

May the Lord abound mercy and understanding and strength and grace in we His own for the Day approaches rapidly!

Neighbour, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And unto what were you baptized?

 

[Kermos]

The Word of God says "I am YHWH, that is My name; I give My glory to no other, nor My praise to graven idols" (Isaiah 42:8).

Right glory is God receiving all glory for a person being saved by Jesus Christ from the wrath of God (Ephesians 2:8-10, Psalm 50:23).

Wrong glory is a person receiving glory for free-will choosing Jesus Christ unto being saved from the wrath of God (Leviticus 10:1-2).

Free-willian philosophy centers on man's choosing of Jesus Christ unto salvation, so this fundamentally results in man stealing the glory that is rightfully God's alone. Free-willian philosophy requires the adulteration, ignorance, and/or neglection of the Word of God - resulting in the promise of punishment not reward (2 Peter 2:9-10).

NO SCRIPTURE EXISTS THAT STATES A PERSON CAN CHOOSE JESUS UNTO BEING SAVED FROM THE WRATH OF GOD. ZERO.

Now, it's time to look at your post.

I think we are hung up on the meaning of words. You use "causing" and scripture uses "influence". A vast difference in meaning.

Actually, the Word of God uses "cause" as shown in post #1,3nn to you.

You wrote that scripture uses "influence" without a single scripture reference, so that's your imagination not scripture.

If you really believe that God causes man to believe and that God causes man to think differently, the how do you answer that man, a believer still sins.

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:14-25)

Your theory makes God not just the author of a believers sin, but is actively doing the sinning, since God controls the will of a believer. You clearly have not thought your theory through.

You call a theory the following Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

You apply the term "theory" to Ephesians 1:3-4 a theory.

You call a theory the following Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

You apply the term "theory" to Ephesians 2:8-10 and Acts 15:8-9.

You call a theory the following Word of God "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

You apply the term "theory" to Philippians 1:11.

You call a theory the following Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8).

You apply the term "theory" to 1 Peter 1:3.

You call a theory the following Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25).

You apply the term "theory" to Acts 11:18.

You call a theory the following Word of God "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (John 13:34).

You apply the term "theory" to 1 John 4:7 and 1 John 4:16.

Despite all this blessed, glorious, and holy declaration that God lovingly and exclusively (1) chooses man unto salvation, (2) imparts faith/belief in Jesus into man, (3) causes man to yield fruit of the Spirit, (4) births man anew by the Holy Spirit, (5) grants repentance in man, and (6) causes righteous love in man, you continued with:

It is not at all consistent with scripture.

Despite God having me proclaim plentiful scripture to you, then you make the above false witness, and your thoughts are without a single scripture reference, so that's your imagination not scripture.

Again. you clearly make God the author of sin in a believer, as well as God actually sinning. There is no text in all of scripture that says a man is saved, past tense, as an individual in his lifetime. It is consistantly portrayed as a journey. A life long journey of being faithful in all things. Living unto God constinually and that striving is all man's responsibility, otherwise there is no need for a judgement. Why would
God need to judge Himself.

Who Causes What

God forms man in the womb.*

Man is born of the world.*

God causes man's conversion from the worldly realm to the heavenly realm.*

* As shown scripturally throughout this essay, and the below scripture.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:5)

And now says YHWH, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him for I am honored in the sight of YHWH, And My God is My strength (Isaiah 49:5)

There is no one who does good, not even one (Romans 3:12, Psalm 53:3)

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20)

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God (Romans 14:12)

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me (Psalm 51:5)

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Ephesians 2:3)

The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth (Psalm 58:3)

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world (1 John 2:16)

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26)

Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:3-8)

"I am no longer in the world; and [yet] they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, [the name] which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We [are]" (John 17:11)

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world" (John 17:15-16)

Again, you bear false witness against the proclamation which God has me making to you.

I don't need to go back and read your original statement. You have been trying, though unsuccessfully, to say scripture says so. Yet scripture is quite emphatic to the opposite.

You are a bearer of false witness, yet you had the opportunity to go back to read the original post replete in the Word of God, yet you refused, so you are without excuse.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

you just proved me correct. What the text says is that God granted repentance to the Gentiles as well as Jews. God does not repent for either one. Making it available does not make God the active agent in repentance. He does not control it, but by His work of redemption, offers it. Eph 2:13-18. He is speaking about making one man, not keeping two, Jew and Gentile. It does not mean he "saved" "repented" "converted" all men. You are misusing the meaning of words, which is why you totally misunderstand

You just adulterated Apostolic testimony into YOUR WORDS of "God has made available to the Gentiles also the repentance to life" (Acts 11:18) thus IT IS NO LONGER APOSTOLIC TESTIMONY.

Truly, the Apostles confessed "God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance to life" (Acts 11:18), and "grant" means to transfer, give, impart, confer. This means God transfers or converts a person to repent, that is, think differently.

The word "offer" is absent from the Ephesians 2:13-18 passage, so you add "offer" converting it into your free-willian philosophy passage which is the word of Rightglory. In fact, Paul wrote of Christ's control in making the Assembly of God with "He Himself is our peace, who made [both groups] into one" (Ephesians 2:14).

Apostolic testimony is that God causes a person to repent (Acts 11:18).

You are dead wrong.

Ah Ha, now we have the truth. Predestination. The greatest fallacy of John Calvin. God actually predestined that Christ would redeem the world, not specific persons. That is what all those texts I cited, which you have not responded to yet. They all refute your theory, "John Calvin's theory.
II Pet 3:9 makes God very capricious. If one is predestined to salvation, to belief, are they not predestined from eternity. Why is
God waiting for them to believe so as not to perish. So according to your view, God permits believers to wallow in sin for various time periods, then at some unexplained reason He decides to kick in His predestination of that person.
There is absolutely no limitation upon Christ's work of redemption. Again, I cited earlier many texts that address this issue. You have yet not responded to them.
The text categorically denies the whole theory of predestination.

John Calvin is not mentioned in the Holy Scripture! It appears you wish to deviate from discussing the Holy Writ.

I follow Lord Jesus Christ, for King Jesus has made me a Christian. I desire to focus on my Lord Jesus Christ!

In your posts to me up to this point, you cited a single verse of 2 Peter 3:9 as support for your free-willian philosophy, yet the post to which you replied clearly stated "2 Peter 3:9 contains no indication that man controls repentance"; furthermore, I believe Apostolic testimony that God grants repentance (Acts 11:18), but you convey that you believe not the Apostolic testimony that God grants repentance (Acts 11:18).

You are a bearer of false witness when you wrote "Again, I cited earlier many texts that address this issue. You have yet not responded to them.". One text of 2 Peter 3:9 and another mention of Jesus' prayer are two texts that I do not consider to be many texts, and I responded to your mention of 2 Peter 3:9 as well as your mention of Jesus' prayer.

God does things for God's good pleasure, just as it is written "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

God is gracious and kind to save one of God's creatures, yet you call God capricious for saving one, so that sounds like you are ungrateful and/or mocking for God's loving act of saving one from the wrath of God!

The whole of scripture implies it. It never uses the phrase "free will" but does use the word will.

By your "implies it", you add free-will into the Word of God where free-will is non-existent resulting in the Word of God ceasing to be the Word of God and becoming the word of Rightglory.

You illegitimately change the word "will" into a thing thing called "free will".

For example, Paul writes of a bond will, that is a believer's will bonded (think glue) to God by God's loving control, with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Another example, Peter writes of a self will, that is an unbeliever's will controlled by the unbeliever, with "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

The most emphatic statement that man has a free will is Jesus's prayer in the Garden. Christ is submitting His human will to the will of God. That is precisely what man is required to do.

Previously, regarding Jesus Christ's prayer, I proclaimed to you "Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God".

It appears you need more detail.

Lord Jesus prayed "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will" (Mark 24:36). Then Lord Jesus carried out the will of God on the cross (John 19:30).

As truly Man, Lord Jesus' will is bonded to God for in His will Jesus concluded the prayer with "but what You will". Behold, Jesus' will being in accord with God's will in the prayer, so Jesus' prayer is an example of "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) for us believers to see.

Lord Jesus did not pray "My free will" as you convey, but truly Jesus did pray "my will".

Lord Jesus is our believer's example (John 13:15).

You are dead wrong.

Continued to post #1,308

 

[Kermos]

Continued from post #1,307

Now you want to broaden these texts which are directly speaking to Jesus choosing the twelve disciples. Now you want to make it to be all believers. Like I said before, your theory does not reflect scripture, thus cannot be consistent with scripture.

Lord Jesus says that of his friends (John 15:15) that Lord Jesus chooses His friends, but His friends don't choose Him (John 15:16). These are adjacent versus that Lord Jesus may have spoke in a single breath. You seem to be excluding yourself from being Lord Jesus' friend.

Let's look at this another way, since Lord Jesus said that the apostles could not choose him, you seem to be claiming to be superior to the apostles in your ability to choose Jesus.

Let's look at how Lord Jesus' sayings in John 15:16 and John 15:19 apply to more than just the 11 Apostles (Judas had already departed) from yet another scriptural angle.

The disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.
​

Here is even more about how Jesus' sayings in John chapters 13-17 apply to all believers in all time:

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).

When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples of Jesus at Pentecost, there were about 120 persons present according to the next two sets of passages:

"Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said" (Acts 1:12-15)

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-4)

One hundred twenty people is more than eleven Apostles; therefore, the Lord Jesus was talking to all His disciples of all time when Jesus said "you" with reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17) and He said "you" with reference to God's exclusive ability to choose men and men's inability to choose God (John 15:16) as recorded by the Apostle John.

CRUCIAL POINT: The Holy Spirit, The Apostle Peter, The Gentiles Cornelius And All His Household, And Lord Jesus Saying "You"

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.
​

I do not present a theory. Truly, it's the Word of God. But your thoughts are out of accord with the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), and this Word of God applies to all believers in all time.

Notice, that Jesus' sayings recorded in John 15:16-19 are very similar to His words "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so, again, the deed of a person coming to Jesus is the act of God being in control of the person.

You are dead wrong.

Christ is submitting His human will to the will of God. That is precisely what man is required to do.

A believer's will is under the control of God by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) for the glory of God and God's good pleasure "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

A believer doing the will of God is a believer exhibiting fruit of the Holy Spirit of God (John 15:5).

Fruit of the Spirit is owned by God, but your writing, specifically the part about mere man, in "Christ is submitting His human will to the will of God. That is precisely what man is required to do" steals the doing of God in man (the fruit of the Spirit) from God thus you comvert the doing ("do") into being the fruit of man.

You are dead wrong.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

You may think He has shown you, but your words belie what scripture actually means as the Holy Spirit delivered it to the Apostles.

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

Additionally, God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

I don't need to go back and read your original statement. You have been trying, though unsuccessfully, to say scripture says so. Yet scripture is quite emphatic to the opposite.

You are a bearer of false witness, yet I mentioned to you the opportunity for you to go back to read the original post replete in the Word of God, yet you refused, so you are without excuse in at least the crime of bearing false witness about which it is written "a false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape" (Proverbs 19:5).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Rightglory]

You call a theory the following Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Yes, I agree Jesus chose his disciples. The whole context is very narrow. NEVER does it say, imply that persons were selected to salvation.

You apply the term "theory" to Ephesians 1:3-4 a theory.

It is your explanation of this context that is a theory. The verses are explaining the reason God redeemed the world. Not just to overcome the fall, but that He predestined those that believe as sons of God. Nothing here that denies man's free will in becoming a believer.

You call a theory the following Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Read it carefully. It does not say that God causes a person to believe. It says He works in this world calling all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit is not idle, but active. But He is active upon every human being, not causing them to believe but influencing them to believe. If it was cause, they all men, every single human being would be saved in this life since God desires that all men be saved.
Again scripture is screaming to you that your theory is not scriptural.

You call a theory the following Word of God "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Your theory makes it so. Just one little word (in) is the difference from your theory to what scripture means here. Our practicing is done by man which is manifested that we did it IN God, not BY God.
It is man's free will that decides to follow and practice the will of God. How do we know the will of God? by the Gospel, written or heard. Your theory also makes all of this text irrelevant. Man is not an active agent in your theory, so why would God need to manifest anything since no man can be persuaded to act, ONLY God can activate man. See how incongruous your whole theory, and it is a theory since you have not shown it to be otherwise.
You need to address these Huge discrepancies from your view and what scripture is actually saying

You apply the term "theory" to 1 John 4:7 and 1 John 4:16.

Despite all this blessed, glorious, and holy declaration that God lovingly and exclusively (1) chooses man unto salvation, (2) imparts faith/belief in Jesus into man, (3) causes man to yield fruit of the Spirit, (4) births man anew by the Holy Spirit, (5) grants repentance in man, and (6) causes righteous love in man, you continued with:

None of these events occur without man's input and his input is HIS FAITH.
Wow, causes him to yield fruit. Why is it that scripture makes it plain that if we do not produce fruit, we will be cut off. So, you are saying that God will cut Himself off from Himself.
You need to seriously study scripture without your severe, thick blinders. It makes scripture wholly irrelevant to mankind.
Explain to me why man even needs the Gospel since God is responsible for everything anyway.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20)

Another text wholly, emphatically denies your theory that God causes man's actions. This text is emphatically stating that Man is going to be responsible for his actions. All men have the knowledge of God. What they do with it is up to them, not God. God could not judge, which is why there is a judgment because all human beings will be without excuse.

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God (Romans 14:12)

Wow. just how does man give an account for himself if he does not have a free will, being an active independent moral agent from
God. You clearly do not understand scripture when you select texts that are diametrically opposed to your view.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest (Ephesians 2:3)

Yes, all men lived this way. The devil had complete hold of man through death and sin. Heb 2:14-16, but now Christ came and suffered death for us (all mankind) and raised us together with Christ. Apparently you believe Christ was also living according to the flesh since He was raised with us. This (US) is mankind and we all were made alive by the Holy Spirit who raised Christ from the dead. Because Christ overcame death and sin, we now can speak of believers in vs 8 which is we are individually saved through faith

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creating account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).Wow, I'm coming to the conclusion that English is a second language for you thereby you have great difficulty understanding scripture. So, lets use your phrase that Adam listened to Eve. According to your theory it means Eve also did not have a free will, so thatIf makes God the ONLY active agent in this scenario. I thought God hated sin and now you have God sinning rather than either Adam or Eve. Eve actually listened to Satan, so is Satan and God the same entity in your view?If not, then you have God actually listening to Satan here. Where can you find support in scripture for this concept?Additionally, God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

Yes, the effect upon Adam, not God, was that Adam and all men through Adam were condemned to death, dust to dust for Adam's sin, not God willing or doing the sinning, as your theory holds. If it was God who controlled Adam's will and Eve's then God is punishing Adam, (man) for something Adam never did.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

That's the problem. Your original post does not even come close in stating Adam did not have a free will. All the texts you used say the opposite as all those I posted show Adam had a free, independent will from that of God. God created man to have a free will so that man could show love. Your whole theory makes man a robot and God vain is seeking self glorification, love, through an object, (man).
Your explanations will continue to be in vain since scripture does not support your theory.

 

[Rightglory]

I follow Lord Jesus Christ, for King Jesus has made me a Christian. I desire to focus on my Lord Jesus Christ!

In your posts to me up to this point, you cited a single verse of 2 Peter 3:9 as support for your free-willian philosophy, yet the post to which you replied clearly stated "2 Peter 3:9 contains no indication that man controls repentance"; furthermore, I believe Apostolic testimony that God grants repentance (Acts 11:18), but you convey that you believe not the Apostolic testimony that God grants repentance (Acts 11:18).

Let's assume you are correct? My question is who goes to hell?
Your statement just made every single Jew and Gentile saved and going to heaven because God granted repentance to both in the text.
Maybe I should ask what is your definition of Jew and Gentile?
Clearly you cherry pick vs that you think might support your view but invariably they do not. You take them out of context.

God is gracious and kind to save one of God's creatures, yet you call God capricious for saving one, so that sounds like you are ungrateful and/or mocking for God's loving act of saving one from the wrath of God!

I believe that Christ reversed the fall. That is Christ redeemed, reconcile, justified this fallen world back to God.
Thus He saved all of mankind from death and sin.
He did this so that He could have communion with those that choose to believe. Christ does not save a single human being as an individual alone, but through a person's faith. We are being justified before God through faith. That is why you theory is alien to scripture. You cannot even correlate the fall, the first Adam with the correction of that fall, Christ's death and resurrection I Cor 15:2022 is the summary of that fall and correction.
God so loved the world and saved it, Why"
So that individuals who believe on Him might be saved. Notice not saved in this life. Our crown is awaiting us I Pet 1:3-5

For example, Paul writes of a bond will, that is a believer's will bonded (think glue) to God by God's loving control, with "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

If there ever were a text that denies your view, it would be this one. Why would Paul say that God needs to control your will in order that you might work of His good pleasure? Is God manipulating man to His own personal glorification?

Another example, Peter writes of a self will, that is an unbeliever's will controlled by the unbeliever, with "The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You need to put it in context. The whole is speaking about false teachers, their doom, their depravity, then in verse 20 he begins to address believers of what happens it they apostatize. Now, how would man apostatize if not by his own will. Are you saying that God causes believers to apostatize?
Again totally denying your view on both sides of the coin, for unbelievers and believers. They are both doing their will. They are not forced by God in any shape or form.

Previously, regarding Jesus Christ's prayer, I proclaimed to you "Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God".

It appears you need more detail.

Lord Jesus prayed "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will" (Mark 24:36). Then Lord Jesus carried out the will of God on the cross (John 19:30).

So, now you agree with me. Well, we are making progress, at least regarding Jesus's prayer. His human will summitting to the will of God.

As truly Man, Lord Jesus' will is bonded to God for in His will Jesus concluded the prayer with "but what You will". Behold, Jesus' will being in accord with God's will in the prayer, so Jesus' prayer is an example of "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13) for us believers to see.

Oops, spoke to soon. Now you want God to actually impose HIS will upon Jesus's human will. This is difficult to differentiate because Jesus has two wills. He has two natures, His human will and His divine will.

Lord Jesus did not pray "My free will" as you convey, but truly Jesus did pray "my will".

Yes He did. But that will was his Human nature's will and not His divine will. Man has that very same will. Which is why we say that Christ in His human nature was precisely, exactly, the same as we are in our human nature.

Lord Jesus is our believer's example (John 13:15).

Yes He is. By submitting His human will to the Father's is precisely, exactly what we must do as believers. It is how we become believers, by believing in Him and repenting of OUR SINS, not God's sins through us as your view holds, and submitting to His will. The Holy Spirit works in us because by becoming believers the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, rather than the Holy Spirit working externally calling all men to repentance. But believers can deny the Holy Spirit, and many have, However, this would be impossible in your view.
The Holy Spirit works upon your will, He does not do your will, or worse subsumes man's will.

You are dead wrong.

Continued to post #1,308

That you have not shown scripturally. You have shown I am totally incorrect when it comes to your theory about man's will.
You clearly have another gospel.

 

[Rightglory]

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LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING​

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In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17).​

I don't know how this supports your view either. What is state is a text, but no place does it say hat the Holy Spirit forces man to do anything. This is why it is such an apostasy when a believer rejects the working of the Holy Spirit. Your view does not allow man to reject the Holy Spirit.

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).​

Yes that is true. But they would be saved by faith which is why Cornelius received the call to meet with Peter. There is nothing here that supports your view. I might also add just receiving the Holy Spirit does not MAKE saved. It provides an intimate relationship with Christ by which it is each believers responsibility to maintain. God, through the Holy Spirit does not DO THE WORK OF YOUR PERSONAL SALVATION. You have a guide, the gospel, you have an example to follow, but He does not do the work you are responsible for.

​

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.​

Never said it was. I am totally at a loss here as to how this supports your view. I have never denied that believers received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit though does not force man's will either as believers internally, or unbelievers externally. Man is always responsible for his moral actions and choices.

​

Notice, that Jesus' sayings recorded in John 15:16-19 are very similar to His words "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so, again, the deed of a person coming to Jesus is the act of God being in control of the person.

again, all the emphasis is on man's choice to practice the things of God. It is not saying God is doing the practicing therefore the manifestation is because God forced individuals against their will to do his will. You constantly want man to be a robot. Man being forced to either do evil or do good by the action of God. How is that even possible given the whole of scripture.
Let me ask you, do you believe in a final judgement for mankind in the last day. How is that possible if God is forcing man's will. You have God forcing man to believe, holding him hostage his whole life, and condemning others to hell because He forced them to be unbelievers. Yet in Rom 1:20 all men will stand judgement without an excuse. All were given the knowledge of God, it is what a person does with that knowledge, not God. They cannot say, God did not give them a chance. Again, your view is denied by the totality of scripture. You can cherry pick text that seemingly fit your theory, but they cannot stand the scrutiny of scripture.

A believer's will is under the control of God by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) for the glory of God and God's good pleasure "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

You have been shown that your view is not scriptural. You have not cited another texts that actually supports your view without totally denying most of the rest of scripture. Your text and statement below is a good example.

A believer doing the will of God is a believer exhibiting fruit of the Holy Spirit of God (John 15:5).

This text, rather then supporting your view, says exactly what the totality of scripture says, Man, a believer is doing the will of God. It is NOT saying the Holy Spirit is doing the will of God. It is so emphatic it clearly states in my Bible, that those in vs 16 who do not abide in me will be cut off. Why would the Holy Spirit stop producing fruit in a believer, thus causing him to be cut off.
Another cherry picked verse the seemingly fits your theory, if you twist it and then deny the context.

Fruit of the Spirit is owned by God, but your writing, specifically the part about mere man, in "Christ is submitting His human will to the will of God. That is precisely what man is required to do" steals the doing of God in man (the fruit of the Spirit) from God thus you comvert the doing ("do") into being the fruit of man.

explain to me clearly why those that no longer produce fruit, are cut off?
Why are they being cut off.
If the Holy Spirit is being cut off, also why?

 

[Jim B]

Scripture does not state anything about a God-given ability to obey or disobey, so that is called adding to scripture about which the Apostle John proclaimed warning (Revelation 22:18-19).

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Item 2.2. addresses your assertion about things being very good. God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13), and God's plan was clearly under way on the fifth day, so Genesis 1:31 makes sense.

Let us take a scriptural view of the creation account:

It is written "You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:8).

It is written "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory' (Romans 9:18-23)

This leads to the point where God created Adam with "God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7).

The Potter formed Adam. Behold, there was no free will imparted to Adam.

So Adam (and Eve) didn't have the ability to choose to eat the fruit or not? God "set them up" so that they would fail and He could banish them from Eden? That makes zero sense.

Behold! Adam and Eve had a choice to make and they made the wrong one.

 

[Kermos]

Neighbour, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And unto what were you baptized?

I am of little consequence.

It's about the Glorious God, Blessed Benefactor, Wonderful Savior, the Holy One who redeems His holy nation from everlasting torment through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, my Lord!

This Jesus Christ is the One that overcame the flesh. Adam did not overcome the flesh.

Jesus Christ is the promised One from the days of Adam. Lord Jesus Christ the promised One by the very Word of we Christian's Blessed Benefactor (Genesis 3:15). The Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ, who overcame the grave (Matthew 28:6)!

Salvation is by God's grace and for God's glory!

PRAISE THE MIGHTY GOD IMMANUEL!

How about you answer the question from the original post to which you replied.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[BeyondET]

.

Actually, you conveyed that yourself, just read your post below then see the Christ's words in red below.



You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

I didn't convey nothing, you insinuated unless that is something you know?

 

[Kermos]

Here is another negative statement showing that you really don't know what you are saying.
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33)."
You are being directed to SEEK his kingdom and His righteousness. Why would God direct Himself to seek His own Kingdom, if He truly governs our wills.
You need to read scripture without those blinders you seem to be wearing.
Do you commit sin? Who is doing the sinning?
Is God going to dump a whole lot of believers in the last day as this texts says of believers? II Tim 4:1-5
This text categorically condemns your whole theory regarding the will of man.

If this is so, then II Tim 4:1-5 is not addressing believers, but God. God is going to pull his controlling actions and actively condemn believers in this life, even though it was God who controlled their wills.

You have yet to show that God controls the will of man. Scripture speaks diametrically opposite of your theory.
Here are some other texts for you to digest: I Tim 5:20. Is a believer sinning or is God sinning?
I Tim 4:12-13 - It would be ridiculous for Paul to state such a thing if God controls our wills, in this case Timothy's. Why would he need to exhort God to be faithful, to exhort, to love. in conduct?
II Tim 1:4-5 - this context is completely incongruous with your theory.

How many more do you need to show that your theory just does not fit scripture. It seems you might be one of those in the last day speaking fables to lure believers away from the Gospel.

My Lord's command of "seek first His kingdom and His righteousnessk" in His saying of "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:33) comes with a promise for obeying His command.

As has been previously proclaimed to you in post 1,289, only a born again person can perceive "His kingdom and His righteousnessk" (Matthew 6:33) mentioned by Jesus (John 3:3-8), so only we born of God have the ability to "seek first His kingdom and His righteousnessk" because of the love filled controlling Power of God:

Because Jesus is truly God, he explains to us mere humans that God converts us mere humans into children of God, it's called being born again, and it's a huge blessing from God (John 3:3-8).

See the Lord's word "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'" (John 3:3-8).

Prior to being born from above, mere humans cannot perceive the kingdom of God nor King Jesus (John 3:3-8), so your free-willians thoughts that a person can use their free-will to choose Jesus is false.
​

Your free-willian philosophy negatively impacts your perception of 2 Timothy 4:1-5, 1 Timothy 5:20, 1 Timothy 4:12-13, and 2 Timothy 1:4-5 as none of these indicate man has a free-will to choose Jesus; furthermore, belief/faith in a believer is controlled by God (John 6:29) as has been previously proclaimed to you in post 1,291, so every mention of belief/faith and believe in those Timothy passages are controlled by God.

Continuing with those Timothy passages, even though you were told in post 1,289 that I have repeatedly written that a person is accountable to God for that person's own sin, yet you repeat your folly of trying to peg man's sin to God. This means that you are a repetitive bearer of false witness.

Your writing does not change the fact that the Apostle Paul wrote that a Christian's will is governed and controlled and bound to God "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

The only Way (John 14:6) that a person can come to Jesus is by God causing the person to come to Jesus for the Truth (John 14:6) says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Your imaginary free-will is a dead end. There is no scripture stating man has a free-will to choose Jesus; in fact, as has been proclaimed, God lovingly works a person's will to come to Jesus unto God's glory (John 3:21, Philippians 2:13).

Free-will is wrong glory for the glory is man's under free-willian philosophy, not God's. Free-will is theft that perishes.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Rightglory]

My Lord's command of "seek first His kingdom and His righteousnessk" in His saying of "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:33) comes with a promise for obeying His command.

You are correct that a promise is given for keeping His command. The command is to believers, but you don't hold the view that mankind has a will that is free, independent from that of God's will. So, by your view, God is giving Himself a command to seek His own kingdom.
You need to explain just how this is possible?

As has been previously proclaimed to you in post 1,289, only a born again person can perceive "His kingdom and His righteousnessk" (Matthew 6:33) mentioned by Jesus (John 3:3-8), so only we born of God have the ability to "seek first His kingdom and His righteousnessk" because of the love filled controlling Power of God:

Means very little to me in trying to understand your view. You actually create to different human natures, one for unbelievers who actually have an independent will. Then believers who become robots and don't even have a will. The Holy Spirit causes, forces, compels a believers former will to do ONLY what the Holy Spirit does in him.
So, explain how a believer can seek His Kingdom. ?
More importantly, how does a believer sin? You are not going to say a believer is sinless, are you?

​

Because Jesus is truly God, he explains to us mere humans that God converts us mere humans into children of God, it's called being born again, and it's a huge blessing from God (John 3:3-8).​

​

See the Lord's word "Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, "You must be born again." The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'" (John 3:3-8).​

Which has nothing to do with your view of believers not having a free will.
It actually condemns your view because "being born again" occurs at baptism. Read Rom 6, the chapter is called the baptism chapter. It only application here is that a person chooses to be lead by the Spirit and begins to seek His Kingdom. A person will either decide to join Christ's Kingdom, by repentance and baptism, and will also receive the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling him.

​

Prior to being born from above, mere humans cannot perceive the kingdom of God nor King Jesus (John 3:3-8), so your free-willians thoughts that a person can use their free-will to choose Jesus is false.​

Scripture does not use the word "perceive". It says that if one is not baptised they will not see the Kingdom. In other words, one cannot join Christ's Kingdom unless one is baptised. Every person who desires to join with Christ will become baptised. That is a free choice of every human being to do so. All men are being called by the Holy Spirit working in this world calling all men to repentance.

If God arbitrarily selects a person and then, as you say, converts them, and then forcing them to believe, to live in bondage to the Holy Spirit. we should see a lot of perfect, sinless people in this world. Why? Because God desires that no man perish. So, what is preventing God from selecting everyone into this bondage where a person cannot even love God.

Your free-willian philosophy negatively impacts your perception of 2 Timothy 4:1-5, 1 Timothy 5:20, 1 Timothy 4:12-13, and 2 Timothy 1:4-5 as none of these indicate man has a free-will to choose Jesus; furthermore, belief/faith in a believer is controlled by God (John 6:29) as has been previously proclaimed to you in post 1,291, so every mention of belief/faith and believe in those Timothy passages are controlled by God.​

It is amazing just what nonsense you believe regarding the meaning of scripture.
II Tim 4:1-5. Paul is addressing believers here. He is exhorting them to remain faithful. Not to be lead away from the Truth. You either believe that unbelievers have the Truth or that the Holy Spirit who controls, forces believers to do His will is exhorting the Holy Spirit to not permit believers to fall away. What is also means is the Holy Spirit is not very good at keeping believers because, apart from scripture, we know that many fall away. Scripture also attests to this in many texts. If you want I can list them for you to study.
You need to theologically explain just how the Holy Spirit works? Who is doing the sinning, man by his will or by the will of the Holy Spirit?

I Tim 5:20, so Paul is believers to rebuke those who are sinning with at least two people. Why are believers sinning in the first place? Again, I ask you. Who is doing the sinning, man or the Holy Spirit? You view says the Holy Spirit, so explain how this is possible?

I Tim 4:12-13. Again, why the exhortation in the first place? The Holy Spirit controls a believers will. It is actually pleading for self-discipline. Is the Holy Spirit doing this anyway, or not?

II Tim 1:4-5 not applicable to either view.
I don't see your view in any of these texts. I do see that believers are being exhorted to do the will of God. Never says it is being done by the Holy Spirit, or as you say, controlled by God. I am assuming, you actually mean the Holy Spirit, as it is He that indwells believers, but I could be wrong.

Continuing with those Timothy passages, even though you were told in post 1,289 that I have repeatedly written that a person is accountable to God for that person's own sin, yet you repeat your folly of trying to peg man's sin to God. This means that you are a repetitive bearer of false witness.

Hardly, you need to explain just how a believer can even sin, if the Holy Spirit, governs , controls, causes a believer to act. You keep emphasizing that a believer does not have a free will. So, is he free, or is his will controlled by God, as you say. You cannot have both as you now seem to say.
Unless you can explain this strange phenonemon, it is you that bears false witness.

Your writing does not change the fact that the Apostle Paul wrote that a Christian's will is governed and controlled and bound to God "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

and once again, you lay a believers sin upon God. How can it be any different? You need to seriously explain just how this concept works?
You cite scripture, yet you do not understand what it means.

The only Way (John 14:6) that a person can come to Jesus is by God causing the person to come to Jesus for the Truth (John 14:6) says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

same issue. Jesus never causes a person to come to God. If that were actually so, then all men would be saved, since God desires all men to be saved. Your explanation, over and over deny most of scripture. It is not consistent with scripture. You attach meanings to verses, but don't really understand them and their relationship to the rest of scripture.

Your imaginary free-will is a dead end. There is no scripture stating man has a free-will to choose Jesus; in fact, as has been proclaimed, God lovingly works a person's will to come to Jesus unto God's glory (John 3:21, Philippians 2:13).

same issue again. You need to change clear English language to say something it has never meant.
Do you know the difference between "by" and "in" See John 3:21. It uses the word "IN". No translation I have uses the word "by", yet you want it to mean thus, so it fits your theory. So far you have not shown anything that supports your view. Nevertheless, I would like to see your theological explanation of just how this phenonemon works in a believer. God controls man's will, but man sins?

 

[Kermos]

So Adam (and Eve) didn't have the ability to choose to eat the fruit or not? God "set them up" so that they would fail and He could banish them from Eden? That makes zero sense.

Behold! Adam and Eve had a choice to make and they made the wrong one.

There is NO scripture that states Adam had the ability to exercise choice; in fact, the Apostle Paul declared that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thus subjecting the creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22), so Paul explains that Adam did not choose to eat of the tree.

God does things for God's good pleasure for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

It is written "Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:7).

See that God caused to grow the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:7), and God caused Adam to be in proximity to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:8), and that is the tree from which Adam ate (Genesis 3:6), and Adam received punishment from God (Genesis 3:17-19).

Your post conveyed that you think that God didn't create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - because according to you that would be "God 'set them up' so that they would fail and He could banish them from Eden" (the word of Jim B).

Look carefully, God caused the tree and God placed Adam in the same garden as the tree.

God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17), so God knew beforehand that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

If you had read the original post, then you would have read in Item 1 of the original post that God prophesied that Adam would eat of the forbidden tree.

You just appear here without uttering a single Biblical citation, so you present your traditions of men instead of the Word of God (Matthew 15:9).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Rightglory]

There is NO scripture that states Adam had the ability to exercise choice; in fact, the Apostle Paul declared that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thus subjecting the creation to futility (Romans 8:20-22), so Paul explains that Adam did not choose to eat of the tree.

Your logic stuns me, let alone how you manipulate scripture. If God was going to subject the earth to corruption, don't you think He would have the power to so declare it?
But, He created man for the sole purpose to have communion with God, freely. Why would He create a robot as if God needs anything, let alone an object that He could force to worship Him.
What do you call forced love? That tree was a test of man's willingness to be obedient, God wanted Adam to love and obey Him of his own will. That is true love.
Then you use Rom 8:20-22 which which is not about Adam. In context, Adam had already sinned. This text is referencing God doing the subjecting, not willingly, but in hope of what He had already planned.
You are correct that God knew Adam would fall, would disobey His command.
What was God's plan, or hope" That subjection was corruption and death. He pronounced that Adam would die, dust to dust. Why? Because God's plan, as stated in Gen 3:15 was to send someone in the future to correct and overturn this subjection. Death is the power of Satan. Heb 2:14-16. Christ needed to defeat Satan and His power of death and sin, over his creation. Which is why all creation was given to Him. Col 1:20.
We as humans, since Adam, sin through the power of death, that is our fallen human natures. I Cor 15:56. All through the OT in the prophets, God promised a deliverer sometime in the future. The mystery that was revealed when Christ came was that He came Incarnate, that is became man, assumed our human natures so that Christ could defeat death.
All those texts I cited before dealing with Christ's Incarnation was for the benefit of His creation as both the world and man was condemned together because they are of the same elements to be brought back to life.
Now, man is exactly in the same position as Adam. God did not make us alive in this life or a reason That life would come at the end times. He didn't make us alive now, but left us in this mortal nature so that we could live out our lives either choosing disobedience or obedience to God. Just like Adam was required to do.
There cannot be love if it is forced, compelled. Which is why man was created with a will, a will that was separate and independent of God's will.

God does things for God's good pleasure for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

This texts has been completely debunked as indicating man does not have a will. To put in more straightforward language, it means the Holy Spirit is working in you, (indwelling) for man to will to work for God's good pleasure. Many men, Christians, have rejected that work as believers. God does not, cannot force man to obey. It negates God's purpose of creating man, to love freely. You are regarded much higher to God as a human being created in His image than being a mere robot.

God prophesied that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17), so God knew beforehand that Adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Prophesied is not the best word use here. God forewarned Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die. You are also correct that God knew, had foreknowledge, but that does not mean God forced Adam to eat of the tree.

 

[Kermos]

I didn't convey nothing, you insinuated unless that is something you know?

See your conveyance that you are free (autonomous) of God regarding food according to your words:

QUOTE="BeyondET, post: 1463214, member: 21212"]
How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.
[/QUOTE]

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.