Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Rightglory]

Because Adam sinned according to the Eternal Purpose of Christ. Christ in Gods Purpose was slain already before Adam was created 1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13 8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So Adam sinned in accord with the redemptive purpose in Christ and he was accountable, even though he must sin according to Gods purpose. Adam could not have chosen not to sin, that would have been contrary to Gods redemptive purpose in Christ.

There is no scripture that even hints that God caused Adam to sin. He did not sin according to God's purpose. God's purpose for for a solution, because He foreknew Adam would sin, was to provide a solution to death and sin.
Theologically, if Adam had not sinned, Christ would never have needed to come. There would have been no death to overcome, nor a sacrifice for sin needed.
Your view posits that there is a solution to Adam because it was needed because God caused Adam to sin as part of that plan of salvation.
You have it all backwards which is why it is inconsistent with scripture.
You also seem to totally misunderstand foreknowledge. Foreknowledge does not require action on the part of God. He knows what, in this case, man would do. That does not need God to do it so it becomes true.

 

[brightfame52]

Man is free from God's will. It is a separate will from that of God's will. That man having a will separate from God is NOT saying man is free from His Sovereignty when His sovereignty established that man has a separate will.
You do have trouble understanding scripture and theology. This is why your view is so nonsensical because you really don't understand the meaning of words.

No man is not free from Gods will. God does His will amongst men Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[brightfame52]

There is no scripture that even hints that God caused Adam to sin. He did not sin according to God's purpose. God's purpose for for a solution, because He foreknew Adam would sin, was to provide a solution to death and sin.
Theologically, if Adam had not sinned, Christ would never have needed to come. There would have been no death to overcome, nor a sacrifice for sin needed.
Your view posits that there is a solution to Adam because it was needed because God caused Adam to sin as part of that plan of salvation.
You have it all backwards which is why it is inconsistent with scripture.
You also seem to totally misunderstand foreknowledge. Foreknowledge does not require action on the part of God. He knows what, in this case, man would do. That does not need God to do it so it becomes true.

Oh yes Gods purpose did cause Adam to sin. Gods purpose is the first cause of all things. And just because Gods purpose is the causative first and primary reason why Adam sinned, Adam was justly held accountable, because he sinned, he disobeyed !

 

[Rightglory]

No man is not free from Gods will. God does His will amongst men Dan 4:35

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Simply amazing. The only consistent thing you do is select verses that oppose your view. The problem is that you do not understand them.
Dan 4:35 is Nebuchadnezzar giving credit to God, after he lifted his eyes to heaven and repented. Your view would have this all annulled and would of necessity say that God did the wickedness of Nebuchadnezzar, and God was repenting of His sin. The next verses tell very clearly that it is Nebuchadnezzar who knew he sinned, accepted his punishment and now praises God.
None of this makes any sense within your view. I don't know how you can deny such a clear example of man's relationship with God. Man has a separate, free, independent will. So much so, that God can punish him for his sin. Does it say God did the repenting, as your view holds, or that God influenced him to repent? He could have continued to resist God. Many people have done this.

 

[Rightglory]

Oh yes Gods purpose did cause Adam to sin. Gods purpose is the first cause of all things. And just because Gods purpose is the causative first and primary reason why Adam sinned, Adam was justly held accountable, because he sinned, he disobeyed !

Really! Where is that taught in scripture? It sounds like another twist so that a theory might work.
So, God created man specifically to sin, that is reject God? Why would God do that? What kind of God do you believe in? If He is the cause of it, then He is a sinner. Man is not the sinner here. So, you live in a world where a person shoots another, God is the cause of it, not the shooter? So if God is the cause, what is your solution to any man killing another person? Is it even possible to have a solution because the solution would be to control God, so that He does not cause one to kill another.
To be kind, I'll assume you really do not understand scripture, nor the relationship between God and man. To believe otherwise I would need to say you have a very perverse understanding of God, of what the Bible actually says.

 

[brightfame52]

Simply amazing. The only consistent thing you do is select verses that oppose your view. The problem is that you do not understand them.
Dan 4:35 is Nebuchadnezzar giving credit to God, after he lifted his eyes to heaven and repented. Your view would have this all annulled and would of necessity say that God did the wickedness of Nebuchadnezzar, and God was repenting of His sin. The next verses tell very clearly that it is Nebuchadnezzar who knew he sinned, accepted his punishment and now praises God.
None of this makes any sense within your view. I don't know how you can deny such a clear example of man's relationship with God. Man has a separate, free, independent will. So much so, that God can punish him for his sin. Does it say God did the repenting, as your view holds, or that God influenced him to repent? He could have continued to resist God. Many people have done this.

All men are controlled and directed by God, He directs and orders our steps Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

 

[brightfame52]

Really! Where is that taught in scripture? It sounds like another twist so that a theory might work.
So, God created man specifically to sin, that is reject God? Why would God do that? What kind of God do you believe in? If He is the cause of it, then He is a sinner. Man is not the sinner here. So, you live in a world where a person shoots another, God is the cause of it, not the shooter? So if God is the cause, what is your solution to any man killing another person? Is it even possible to have a solution because the solution would be to control God, so that He does not cause one to kill another.
To be kind, I'll assume you really do not understand scripture, nor the relationship between God and man. To believe otherwise I would need to say you have a very perverse understanding of God, of what the Bible actually says.

This world was created for a redemptive purpose for Christ Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

See Adam and men in Adam were created for Christ and His redemptive purpose, which purpose included the forgiveness of sins.

Christ in Gods purpose was already set to come into the world and redeem the elect before the world began, before Adam began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now when was Christ foreordained for redemption according to this passage ?

 

[Rightglory]

All men are controlled and directed by God, He directs and orders our steps Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:9

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

This does not negate man's will. I can give you several examples that I can also direct your steps. Here is an analogy.
I will need to make some assumptions here. In the morning you leave the house to go to work. You have a direct route to work. You do this every day. By your will you have a plan you carry out every day, morning and evening.
Now, I, as a traffic controller, have put up detour signs because construction is taking place on the road ahead. At this point you have two choices, You can follow the detour signs or you can go through them. Did I change your will? No, I directed your will. You are free to take it or leave it. I cannot force you to comply with the detour. If you disobey, like Adam did, then you will be punished. You are responsible for your actions, not God or me in your choice. That is the meaning of Prov 16:9.
Your issue is you do not understand why God created man, which is why you have such incorrect view of the relationship between God and man.

 

[Rightglory]

This world was created for a redemptive purpose for Christ Col 1:14-16

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

How come you did not include vs 17-20? especially vs 19, "It pleased the Father than in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reeconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven..." He DID NOT RECONCILE BELIEVERS. He reconciled all things. This is the Incarnation. as is I Cor 15:20-22, II Cor 15:18-19, II Tim 1:10. I John 2:2, Heb 1:9, 14-16. Rom 18-20. There is no mention of believers being saved, converted, in any of these texts.
Next, you misunderstand the fall as well. The world was NOT created for a redemptive purpose. The redemption plan was foreordained because God knew Adam would sin, thus totally destroyed the purpose of God creating man, to have union with Him
God did not desire that Adam sin or cause him to sin. Foreknowledge or foreordination does not mean God needs to actually do something in order to know.

See Adam and men in Adam were created for Christ and His redemptive purpose, which purpose included the forgiveness of sins.

He wanted to have union with man for an eternity. For this reason He needed to overcome death and also to provide a sacrifice for sin. Overcome death happens in the eschaton when death will be defeated finally, in the meantime man has been appointed to die once, so that sin will end in that mortal flesh.
The sacrifice for sin would enable God to have union with man in this life, if they believe. When one repents, he will be forgiven his past sins. For future sins, continued confession will be necessary in order for man to remain in union with God.
Christ did not make, force, convert, anyone to belief from the Cross-death/resurrection or at any other time. It becomes a free choice of man whether he will believe or not, or even if he does, but later rejects Christ. Man is free and will get his just reward.

Christ in Gods purpose was already set to come into the world and redeem the elect before the world began, before Adam began 1 Pet 1:18-20

I don't think you understand this text or the context because it does not say what you think it say regarding your view. First, your idea that the redemptive plan was God's purpose in creating man is incorrect. He created man to have union and communion with man. Man was given everything in creation to use and give back to God in thanks and adoration. Man was purposed to attain to immortality if he remained obedient to God. However man failed, God knew he would fail for which He planned a redemption for all that God had created would be given to His Son to reconcile the world, all men back to God.
Why, so God could again be in union and communion with man, Christ became the second Adam and corrected the first Adam.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now when was Christ foreordained for redemption according to this passage ?

Before all times. But how does that help your view. It says nothing about Christ redeeming some as believers. The redemptive plan, as explained above, was to correct what Adam did, which is clearly stated in I Cor 15:20-22. Do you think that God had an ongoing plan for His creation or He knew what His plan was and executed it on foreknowledge? I'm also not sure you understand "foreknowledge either,. You seemingly think God needs to do something in order to know.
You don't indicate by your statements that you understand the Creation of man, that man fell and the whole creation was condemned to death. Because you don't really understand these, one would expect you would not understand the redemptive plan either.

 

[brightfame52]

rightglory

This does not negate man's will.

Thats not the point, you dont get it. Man has a will, a mind and so forth, but its all under Gods control, mans will that he has, isnt free from Gods sovereign control and determination. Man freely does whatever God has predetermined they should do, like in the matter of being gathered to do the things that God determined them to do when Christ was going to the cross to die for the elect Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The words "were gathered together" are in the passive voice, who do you think gathered them together ?

 

[brightfame52]

How come you did not include vs 17-20? especially vs 19, "It pleased the Father than in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reeconcile ALL THINGS to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven..." He DID NOT RECONCILE BELIEVERS. He reconciled all things. This is the Incarnation. as is I Cor 15:20-22, II Cor 15:18-19, II Tim 1:10. I John 2:2, Heb 1:9, 14-16. Rom 18-20. There is no mention of believers being saved, converted, in any of these texts.
Next, you misunderstand the fall as well. The world was NOT created for a redemptive purpose. The redemption plan was foreordained because God knew Adam would sin, thus totally destroyed the purpose of God creating man, to have union with Him
God did not desire that Adam sin or cause him to sin. Foreknowledge or foreordination does not mean God needs to actually do something in order to know.

He wanted to have union with man for an eternity. For this reason He needed to overcome death and also to provide a sacrifice for sin. Overcome death happens in the eschaton when death will be defeated finally, in the meantime man has been appointed to die once, so that sin will end in that mortal flesh.
The sacrifice for sin would enable God to have union with man in this life, if they believe. When one repents, he will be forgiven his past sins. For future sins, continued confession will be necessary in order for man to remain in union with God.
Christ did not make, force, convert, anyone to belief from the Cross-death/resurrection or at any other time. It becomes a free choice of man whether he will believe or not, or even if he does, but later rejects Christ. Man is free and will get his just reward.

I don't think you understand this text or the context because it does not say what you think it say regarding your view. First, your idea that the redemptive plan was God's purpose in creating man is incorrect. He created man to have union and communion with man. Man was given everything in creation to use and give back to God in thanks and adoration. Man was purposed to attain to immortality if he remained obedient to God. However man failed, God knew he would fail for which He planned a redemption for all that God had created would be given to His Son to reconcile the world, all men back to God.
Why, so God could again be in union and communion with man, Christ became the second Adam and corrected the first Adam.



Before all times. But how does that help your view. It says nothing about Christ redeeming some as believers. The redemptive plan, as explained above, was to correct what Adam did, which is clearly stated in I Cor 15:20-22. Do you think that God had an ongoing plan for His creation or He knew what His plan was and executed it on foreknowledge? I'm also not sure you understand "foreknowledge either,. You seemingly think God needs to do something in order to know.
You don't indicate by your statements that you understand the Creation of man, that man fell and the whole creation was condemned to death. Because you don't really understand these, one would expect you would not understand the redemptive plan either.

Including Vs 17 wouldnt change nothing, the world was created for Christs redeeming purpose, to include adam and man in adam. Adam must sin, Christ must die, already predetermined.

 

[Rightglory]

rightglory



Thats not the point, you dont get it. Man has a will, a mind and so forth, but its all under Gods control, mans will that he has, isnt free from Gods sovereign control and determination. Man freely does whatever God has predetermined they should do, like in the matter of being gathered to do the things that God determined them to do when Christ was going to the cross to die for the elect Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The words "were gathered together" are in the passive voice, who do you think gathered them together ?

God has not predetermined anything man does. He knows what man will do and will guide as I showed in my example. Your whole theory makes God the sinner and not man. It's very simple to understand but you have this theory which is not found in scripture, that God actually compels man to sin. The fact that you cannot explain this huge fallacy shows that it is a theory,
The fact that you cannot even separate two diametrically opposite theological points such as man has a will but all of his actions are totally predetermined . Those two things are mutually exclusive. If what man does in predetermined, he does not, cannot have a will. If he has a will, then his actions cannot be predetermined. One does not need scripture to understand those philosophical points.

Acts 4:27-28 shows that you do not understand foreknowledge. God knew that the time was right to send His Son into this world. What the people did to Jesus was foreknown by God and He used evil for his redemptive purpose. God did not cause the people to crucify Him. Man, Herod, Pilate were not compelled or forced by God to sin. You might understand scripture a lot better when you understand what foreknowledge means. It will also explain why you think that Christ can actually limit the work His incarnation. It also shows you do not understand when a person becomes an elect.

 

[Rightglory]

Including Vs 17 wouldnt change nothing, the world was created for Christs redeeming purpose, to include adam and man in adam. Adam must sin, Christ must die, already predetermined.

Where does it say that the world was created for Christ's redemptive purpose?. It does not say it in the creation story of Genesis. Paul never stated this? The only person who might have stated this would be John Calvin under his doctrine of predestination. Most of what you seem to espouse fits in with his view of scripture. Unfortunately his view is all his own and has very little to do with what scripture means.

 

[brightfame52]

God has not predetermined anything man does. He knows what man will do and will guide as I showed in my example. Your whole theory makes God the sinner and not man. It's very simple to understand but you have this theory which is not found in scripture, that God actually compels man to sin. The fact that you cannot explain this huge fallacy shows that it is a theory,
The fact that you cannot even separate two diametrically opposite theological points such as man has a will but all of his actions are totally predetermined . Those two things are mutually exclusive. If what man does in predetermined, he does not, cannot have a will. If he has a will, then his actions cannot be predetermined. One does not need scripture to understand those philosophical points.

Acts 4:27-28 shows that you do not understand foreknowledge. God knew that the time was right to send His Son into this world. What the people did to Jesus was foreknown by God and He used evil for his redemptive purpose. God did not cause the people to crucify Him. Man, Herod, Pilate were not compelled or forced by God to sin. You might understand scripture a lot better when you understand what foreknowledge means. It will also explain why you think that Christ can actually limit the work His incarnation. It also shows you do not understand when a person becomes an elect.

Again, man has a will, but its not free from the Sovereign determinations of God, its always going to be subservient to Gods predetermined counsel. And as you can see Peter preached that in his sermon in Acts 4:26-28
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

How were they gathered together ? Who do you believe gathered them together ?

 

[Rightglory]

Again, man has a will, but its not free from the Sovereign determinations of God, its always going to be subservient to Gods predetermined counsel. And as you can see Peter preached that in his sermon in Acts 4:26-28
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

How were they gathered together ? Who do you believe gathered them together ?

Repeating your mantra does not change the meaning of the text.
God's determinations (foreknowledge) is based on man's will. His determinations does not subsume man's will. Obviously, you have not rechecked the meaning of foreknowledge or predestination. It might benefit your understanding of who God is, why He created man, and why man needed redemption, and God's relationship with man.

 

[brightfame52]

Repeating your mantra does not change the meaning of the text.
God's determinations (foreknowledge) is based on man's will. His determinations does not subsume man's will. Obviously, you have not rechecked the meaning of foreknowledge or predestination. It might benefit your understanding of who God is, why He created man, and why man needed redemption, and God's relationship with man.

Im repeating the Truth, mans will is subservient to Gods will.

 

[Rightglory]

Im repeating the Truth, mans will is subservient to Gods will.

It is not the Truth, It is purely your acceptance of the theory of Calvinism. 1500 years went by before such a belief system was developed. Hardly the Truth from the beginning, There is nothing in Apostolic history that such a theory existed and that it was actually a teaching of scripture.
Don't you think that if it was a scriptural teaching the early Church would be been writing, teaching, practicing this theory as scripture for the years leading to the 16th century, even today.

 

[brightfame52]

It is not the Truth, It is purely your acceptance of the theory of Calvinism. 1500 years went by before such a belief system was developed. Hardly the Truth from the beginning, There is nothing in Apostolic history that such a theory existed and that it was actually a teaching of scripture.
Don't you think that if it was a scriptural teaching the early Church would be been writing, teaching, practicing this theory as scripture for the years leading to the 16th century, even today.

It is the Truth. Man will voluntarily do whatever God has predetermined that God wants them to do. Acts 4:26-28

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

 

[Rightglory]

It is the Truth. Man will voluntarily do whatever God has predetermined that God wants them to do. Acts 4:26-28

Your theory is so absurd. So God wants many men to commit murder. They cannot stop God from causing them to commit murder. Why would you punish them for something they are not responsible for?
God said that He will not cause man to sin. How is that possible within your view?
Explain how this theory answers all these inconsistencies with scripture. Or you actually don't believe any other part of scripture if it seemingly does not support your interpretation?
You used the phrase, "born again" earlier. why is that needed if Christ made believers by His death? They are already believers. According to you they were chosen to be elect from the foundations of the world.
Most of the NT becomes quite vacuous within your view, it means nothing. actually why do you need a gospel at all? It is all theater by your view.

 

[brightfame52]

Your theory is so absurd. So God wants many men to commit murder. They cannot stop God from causing them to commit murder. Why would you punish them for something they are not responsible for?
God said that He will not cause man to sin. How is that possible within your view?
Explain how this theory answers all these inconsistencies with scripture. Or you actually don't believe any other part of scripture if it seemingly does not support your interpretation?
You used the phrase, "born again" earlier. why is that needed if Christ made believers by His death? They are already believers. According to you they were chosen to be elect from the foundations of the world.
Most of the NT becomes quite vacuous within your view, it means nothing. actually why do you need a gospel at all? It is all theater by your view.

Those people didn't know they were being gathered together to accomplish Gods predestinated purpose of crucifying Christ. They made their choices and decisions willingly, not by force. Acts 4:26-28

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.