Was James confused?

[H. Richard]

If the Gospel is veiled to you, it can only mean one thing.

***

Rom 14:4
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

a perfectly good case can be made for works without James, but if you go looking for "proof" or believe you are in possession of "facts" imo you should acknowledge that you are in court, and seeking a judgement of law anyway.

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I listed the facts in the OP. But I see that no one wants to see them because they never mention them. James had some of his evidence from the wrong period of Abraham's live. --- No I am not going to go to the effort to rewrite those facts since the facts don't seem to be getting throuh.

 

[bbyrd009]

But I see that no one wants to see them because they never mention them.

imo this is because the premise that God considers some Jewish or Gentile, or male or female, or other human/physical distinctions, is not in keeping with NT theology.

 

[H. Richard]

imo this is because the premise that God considers some Jewish or Gentile, or male or female, or other human/physical distinctions, is not in keeping with NT theology.

***
NT theology is usually wrong because it blends two different gospel together. one of law and one of grace. You know about grace don't you it is a free gift and working for it has made it null and void.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
NT theology is usually wrong because it blends two different gospel together. one of law and one of grace. You know about grace don't you it is a free gift and working for it has made it null and void.

boy, i'm glad to hear that, because i am a total hedonist, a complete narcissist, etc, and i figured i'd ask Jesus into my heart just in case, y'know...good to hear that me and Hitler will be there in heaven with you

does this affect my place in Nirvana with Buddha, do you think?

 

[ScottA]

***

I listed the facts in the OP. But I see that no one wants to see them because they never mention them. James had some of his evidence from the wrong period of Abraham's live. --- No I am not going to go to the effort to rewrite those facts since the facts don't seem to be getting throuh.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

James speaks of the one and Paul speaks of the other, but you are mixing the two. Of course the facts do not agree - they should not, nor do they.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
NT theology is usually wrong because it blends two different gospel together. one of law and one of grace. You know about grace don't you it is a free gift and working for it has made it null and void.

hopefully it becomes obvious that your premise has some deficiencies. I would never counsel working for Grace, but Grace putting one to work is maybe a decent proposition? Isn't that better than cutting out the parts of Scripture you don't agree with, regardless of the reason?

 

[bbyrd009]

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

amen, yet he was nonetheless justified by his works, offering Isaac.

Now does this mean that God would have accounted him "unrighteous" if he had refused to offer Isaac? I have no idea there, but i can say that his works in that case would not have justified him.

The alt is that, what, James somehow got into Scripture erroneously, or what exactly?

6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did.

so then Abraham was not justified by his works, but that is a different concept than being accounted "righteous." Obviously.

Someone i have accounted righteous might do something that imo does not justify them, but i might still account them righteous, to reflect upon a human equivalent. Now, if they kept doing things that did not justify my opinion of them as righteous, that opinion might change, but even two such instances after say 20 years of righteousness prolly would not do the trick.

Not sure how pertinent that is, but it sounds good, see if you can punch some holes in that.

 

[bbyrd009]

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

imo what you have done here is take a passage that is meant to agree that all who are righteous are of Abraham's seed, be they Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, whatever, and turn it into a blessing of those who cry "Lord, Lord," essentially. The MSG translation makes this a bit clearer imo Romans 4 - MSG Bible - Bible Study Tools

MSG (slang, iow; not "authorized")
9 Do you think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God? We all agree, don't we, that it was by embracing what God did for him that Abraham was declared fit before God?

 

[bbyrd009]

also i suggest that the Book that you are convinced is the Word is not even the Book of Truth, and you cannot state a single absolute "truth" from Scripture that cannot be Scripturally contested without veering into another definition of God or ending up with a statement that makes truth completely ethereal, ie "thou shalt love the Lord thy God" is certainly "truth," but who does it, so how much does it even really exist, like that.

For every "provide for your family" there is a "don't work for money," see, workers deserve their wages, but pastors might be pimping it for filthy lucre, God is 3, God is 1. God is even 2 lol.

This is all a call to read the Bible with different eyes. Start by understanding that the Bible is not the Word; It is not even the Book of Truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

um then you could i don't know like see when a direct contradiction is presented within the next verse or the one after or something, those are all over...Job has a few

 

[bbyrd009]

oh, and
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west
we just have to overcome being raised to think logically, and learn to reason dialectically. (translation 'there is not really an "A" or "notA" answer here')

You cannot find God with your mind. Deciding whether you should be doing stuff or not is not the same as going and being. And yes you are justified by your works, which are not why you were given grace. You love your son whether he is bad or good right, but when he does the right thing there is a decidedly diff spirit then when he does not yes? same thing

 

[bbyrd009]

wow who could keep up with that lol

 

[101G]

Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

GINOLJC, to all. I can't believe some of the responses I have seen. this is basic Christianity 101. both apostle are in agreement, and there are no contradictions. the only thing that is misunderstanding of works before salvation and after. the apostle Paul state that no man is Justified (saved) by any works, not in God eyes. there is nothing, or any WORKS that any man can do to be justified before God. the Apostle James is saying that once save one should work because they are saved. other words one show fruit of their salvation by works. let's see this clearly in worldly example. no one just walk on a job and start working, they first must be hired in order to get a paycheck. one must be hired first. understand one don't work to get save, (Paul), one work because they are SAVE, (James). so there is no contradictions.

Now as for the LAW concering the save person under grace, scripture, 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine". and the Christian under GRACE, their righteousness is Christ Jesus. so the Christian, the save man is not under Law but Grace.

I hope this helped.

 

[FHII]

James is saying that once save one should work because they are save

He didn't say that. I actually agree with you. You should help brethren and do "works". They have nothing to do with salvation. Not even as evidence of faith.

Here is one of the things James said:

James 2:24 KJV
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[mjrhealth]

One has to realize the apostles are not Gods, they where simply average men that Jesus knew He could use as they where of no reputation, they where also men who where coming out of a carnal religious system into a new spiritual revelation, and had much to be removed, It is why it is so hard for teh "religious" to find the truth, to get ones mind to agree with Christ after years of spiritual abuse is a nightmare, so much to unlearn Saul was our example of that, it is also teh reason why Jesus needs His children alone with Himself for a time so they have no external influences to corrupt what He is teaching them, Pia and im sure there are others who can attest to that. And so the apostles made mistakes, got angry and got rebuked, it is a learning process for those who choose Christ, they where the first but not the last.

 

[Deborah_]

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.

The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed

The study:

Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

One must remember that all the apostolic letters were written to deal with problems that had arisen in the churches and to counteract specific false teachings.
Paul puts a lot of emphasis on grace because Gentile believers were being bullied into converting to Judaism.
James is dealing with a very different situation. When he writes, "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" (James 2:14), he clearly assumes that his readers are already completely convinced that they are justified by faith alone. It's hardly surprising, then, that James doesn’t waste any time going over what is common ground for them. He doesn’t need to argue for justification by faith, because no-one disputes it; instead, he has to explain that there is potentially more than one type of faith. There is a faith that produces works, and there is a ‘faith’ that does not. The former is the kind of faith that justifies, but the latter is an intellectual kind of faith that is little more than wishful thinking. James is merely insisting that we must have the right kind of faith (James 2:24).

Faith and works: Paul v James (round 1)

 

[tabletalk]

Jesus needs His children alone with Himself for a time so they have no external influences to corrupt what He is teaching them,...

And by that you must mean your face to face interaction with a man you call Jesus. Scripture is sufficient to learn what the real Jesus is teaching us.

 

[mjrhealth]

And by that you must mean your face to face interaction with a man you call Jesus. Scripture is sufficient to learn what the real Jesus is teaching us.

yes that is why there are so many religions and so many confused christians.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

not something you get from reading teh bible., just more knowledge more mens wisdom more mens understanding and more knowing "about" but never knowing Jesus. It was not a figment of my imagination that died or suffered for me neither was He a story character out of a book of fables. Teh living Word Jesus Christ who gave His life for Many but accepted by so few.

 

[tabletalk]

yes that is why there are so many religions and so many confused christians.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

not something you get from reading teh bible., just more knowledge more mens wisdom more mens understanding and more knowing "about" but never knowing Jesus. It was not a figment of my imagination that died or suffered for me neither was He a story character out of a book of fables. Teh living Word Jesus Christ who gave His life for Many but accepted by so few.

I'm just pointing out what you think of the word of God, the Bible:
"the revelation of Jesus Christ. not something you get from reading teh bible." "...neither was He a story character out of a book of fables."

And another person on these forums,who worships a man she calls Jesus, says the Scriptures are "anecdotal" ( not necessarily true or reliable).

So, Scripture is a book of fables.

No.