Was James confused?

[mjrhealth]

word of God, the Bible:

The bible is teh bible it has no life in it. You should read it sometime.

But you wil not come to Me so I can give you life. Teh letter killeth it is teh Spirit that gives life. The words that I speak they are Spirit and they are Life. You can preach teh bible and we shall tell teh world about Jesus, since all some christians are interested in is teh bible.

 

[bbyrd009]

um then you could i don't know like see when a direct contradiction is presented within the next verse or the one after or something, those are all over...Job has a few

there's even a big one in the Abraham Isaac passage; because yes, Abraham did doubt that God could give them a son naturally, he even laughed about it, then tried some works, Hagar, but we read in the op that he did not doubt God, etc.

 

[bbyrd009]

the apostle Paul state that no man is Justified (saved) by any works, not in God eyes

i disagree, and if you pull up any of the vv that seem to imply this it quickly becomes evident why. No man who relies on the law is justified by his works, etc. I find no law that one must offer their son for sacrifice.

 

[101G]

He didn't say that. I actually agree with you. You should help brethren and do "works". They have nothing to do with salvation. Not even as evidence of faith.

Here is one of the things James said:

James 2:24 KJV
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

GINOLJC, when I say James is saying, I'm giving the meaning, not quoting what he said, but the realization of what he said. and now for that realization of both apostles, Romans 2:10-13 "But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;Romans 2:13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified". now James, James 2:14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 "If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 "And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone".

 

[bbyrd009]

And so the apostles made mistakes, got angry and got rebuked, it is a learning process for those who choose Christ

you gotta love the "it is given for you to understand" in the face of all of their blatant lack of understanding lol.

 

[101G]

i disagree, and if you pull up any of the vv that seem to imply this it quickly becomes evident why. No man who relies on the law is justified by his works, etc. I find no law that one must offer their son for sacrifice.

GINOLJC, you can disagree, but show me a scripture that any man was justified by works, for salvation?.

 

[bbyrd009]

GINOLJC, you can disagree, but show me a scripture that any man was justified by works, for salvation?.

well, imo you have added "for salvation" there, so you are right, i do not disagree

 

[101G]

well, imo you have added "for salvation" there, so you are right, i do not disagree

....... (smile), no I had already said it before, I didn't add it. but I'm glad you saw your mistake.

 

[Armadillo]

The book of James is written to the Jew, the religious, and the theme is religion but works aren't greater than faith, faith is shown by works.

James 4:6, But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.”

James writes of God's grace but he doesn't have the understanding, the revelation of what grace is like Paul did. James only gets bits and pieces of what grace is. Paul reveals justification by faith whereas James says you must submit yourself to God to draw near to God so God can draw near to you.

Pride vs humility. You can be proud and do as the law says (good luck) or be humble and not brag about the good works being done in you that just happen when you walk in God's grace.

Proverbs 11:2, When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

I don't think James and Paul's teachings were contradictory on what faith is because the Book of Galatians was written after the Book of James. It was Paul that was given the message of grace, Galatians 1:12.

 

[FHII]

when I say James is saying, I'm giving the meaning, not quoting what he said, but the realization of what he said.

101G
This is reference to you saying James was saying we should keep the law because of faith. And its not what he meant either. I agree that we should, but we aren't justified by doing so. James isn't saying we should keep it, he is saying that we are justified by works with faith.

As for Romans 2, the scripture you quoted was part of a bigger picture. Paul was explaining that it was wrong and hypocritical for Jews to force their laws and customs on the gentiles. In fact, Paul didn't believe the Jews were under the Law when under grace. That is something James did teach: believing Jews were still under the Law.

 

[101G]

101G
This is reference to you saying James was saying we should keep the law because of faith. And its not what he meant either. I agree that we should, but we aren't justified by doing so. James isn't saying we should keep it, he is saying that we are justified by works with faith.

GINOLJC, the work of the Law was O.T faith, but now we're under grace. did you not read what I posted about the LAW? 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers". no Christian is subject to the Law. the Law was not done away with, but is for the judgment of the disobedient one to it.

Understand, we don't work to be saved, we work because we're saved. no LAW involved, only LOVE. for the Lord God almighty Jesus said if you LOVE me keep my commandant.

Lastly, 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

 

[DPMartin]

na h Richard your confused, James knows exactly what he is talking about and you don't. everything the man says in the following is true:


Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

what is always the deception in these discussions is faith, what is man's definition or redefinition of faith. and faith isn't "your religion" as many believe. faith is simply belief/trust that is placed by the person on or in something or some one. could be on or in anything. and that same persons actions and doings "works" will be according to what they believe and trust. all James is saying here is simply if one's faith is truly in Christ then the fruits thereof will be there. no different then if one's faith is placed in money they will act and do according to their faith, what they believe and trust to be true, or even good for themselves. Adam and Eve placed their faith in what the serpent said, and did accordingly.

if its an apple tree it will bare apples, not oranges.

 

[bbyrd009]

the apostle Paul state that no man is Justified (saved) by any works, not in God eyes.

k i didn't really expect you to acknowledge that you were wrong i guess

"No man who relies on the law is justified by his works"


i hope this helped

 

[101G]

k i didn't really expect you to acknowledge that you were wrong i guess

"No man who relies on the law is justified by his works"


i hope this helped

GINOLJC, NO

 

[FHII]

Understand, we don't work to be saved, we work because we're saved. no LAW involved, only LOVE. for the Lord God almighty Jesus said if you LOVE me keep my commandant.

Ok, lets look at that way for a moment (although I still contend it isn't what he meant). I have one question to ask you before I make my case. Are you saying and/or James is saying such works are evidence of our faith? I have to know if that's your point.

Thanks in advance for the clarification

 

[bbyrd009]

GINOLJC, NO

well c'mon, you don't find omitting

"who relies on the law"

has any bearing on the intent of the passage here or what exactly?
my orig reply might have seemed sparse or combative, but i just don't want to put words in your mouth here. How would you put it?

 

[101G]

well c'mon, you don't find omitting

"who relies on the law"

has any bearing on the intent of the passage here or what exactly?
my orig reply might have seemed sparse or combative, but i just don't want to put words in your mouth here. How would you put it?

This is how I pout it, 2 Timothy 2:16 "But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness". good day.

 

[FHII]

good day.

Ok

 

[ScottA]

Understand, we don't work to be saved, we work because we're saved.

That is the simple answer to all this. Well said!

 

[bbyrd009]

i have a saying, too;

"it is pointless to be for water conservation, if all of your faucets are instant-on."