Was Jesus a 'created being?'

[Johann]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)

 

[RedFan]

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

Let me suggest that the Psalm called David "firstborn" simply in an effort to overturn (in his case) the primogeniture mindset of the times that would otherwise have relegated his status. But in Colossians, there is no primogeniture issue (because Christ was the only-begotten, and didn't need to jump ahead of a firstborn who preceded him). "Prototokos" only has the connotation of "preeminent" in the primogeniture context of multiple offspring. It literally means first to be born. There is no preeminence issue when there are not two or more to be ranked.

 

[Zao is life]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)

Adam was created.

Jesus?

The conception of Jesus:

Matthew 1:20
"And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit."

Colossians 1:15-17
"For all things were created by Him who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born (Greek: prototokos) of all creation, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Prototokos:

The Greek word prototokos is derived from protos, which signifies "in front of, prior". The word is also an alternative for tikto, which implies begotten (not created).

They want Jesus, who is the Creator, to be like you and me, created beings. But they cannot.

BIGGEST PROOF:

Adam's sin caused him to lose the source of (eternal) life and so when Adam and all the sons of Adam die in their bodies, THEY STAY DEAD. We need Jesus and His Spirit to cause us rise again from the dead:

Jesus rose again from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead refutes any false notions of Him being a created "being" who became human.

All things were created by Him, and He did not create Himself.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)

Yes sir, he was begotten from Jehovah. Rev 3:14, and the verse you used showing he was the firstborn of all creation confirm that. Why is it out of all of God's sons Jesus was referred to as Jehovah's only begotten?

 

[Johann]

Adam was created.

Jesus?

The conception of Jesus:

Matthew 1:20
"And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit."

Colossians 1:15-17
"For all things were created by Him who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born (Greek: prototokos) of all creation, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Prototokos:

The Greek word prototokos is derived from protos, which signifies "in front of, prior". The word is also an alternative for tikto, which implies begotten (not created).

They want Jesus, who is the Creator, to be like you and me, created beings. But they cannot.

BIGGEST PROOF:

Adam's sin caused him to lose the source of (eternal) life and so when Adam and all the sons of Adam die in their bodies, THEY STAY DEAD. We need Jesus and His Spirit to cause us rise again from the dead:

Jesus rose again from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead refutes any false notions of Him being a created "being" who became human.

All things were created by Him, and He did not create Himself.

This is getting better and better, full of kratos, dunamis and exousia.
As you may have noticed, way too many opinions of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, different, heteros opinions.
The Logos, Memra...still hidden to some.
J.

 

[Zao is life]

This is getting better and better, full of kratos, dunamis and exousia.
As you may have noticed, way too many opinions of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus, different, heteros opinions.
The Logos, Memra...still hidden to some.
J.

Yes, and it's our job to ensure the truth continues to be told. So it's good to see you in these boards, because it's bad enough already, but it's going to get a lot worse, in my opinion. But let me leave eschatology out of it, because these topics in your threads are foundational to everything else.

 

[Johann]

Yes sir, he was begotten from Jehovah. Rev 3:14, and the verse you used showing he was the firstborn of all creation confirm that. Why is it out of all of God's sons Jesus was referred to as Jehovah's only begotten?

Adam was created.

Jesus?

The conception of Jesus:

Matthew 1:20
"And as he thought upon these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take to you Mary as your wife. For that in her is fathered of the Holy Spirit."

Colossians 1:15-17
"For all things were created by Him who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born (Greek: prototokos) of all creation, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

Prototokos:

The Greek word prototokos is derived from protos, which signifies "in front of, prior". The word is also an alternative for tikto, which implies begotten (not created).

They want Jesus, who is the Creator, to be like you and me, created beings. But they cannot.

BIGGEST PROOF:

Adam's sin caused him to lose the source of (eternal) life and so when Adam and all the sons of Adam die in their bodies, THEY STAY DEAD. We need Jesus and His Spirit to cause us rise again from the dead:

Jesus rose again from the dead. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead refutes any false notions of Him being a created "being" who became human.

All things were created by Him, and He did not create Himself.

The above post from another member.

You have your wires crossed with "Firstborn" "Begotten" and the JW' do teach that Christ Jesus was a "created being" Robert, you and I don't walk in the derek of haKodesh, Highway of holiness.
Do yourself a favor, instead of defending the JW' on this forum, read Pilgrim's Progress and progress to a higher level.
J.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes sir, he was begotten from Jehovah. Rev 3:14, and the verse you used showing he was the firstborn of all creation confirm that. Why is it out of all of God's sons Jesus was referred to as Jehovah's only begotten?

Because God has no sons.

The angels were called bene Elohim only thrice for that what was known about angels and cherubs and seraphs at that time.

First born has two distinctive and different connotations in the ancient languages and cultures.

1. It means the first of at least two who were born. ( they simply did not mean first born if it was an only child)

2. It means heir apparent of the Fathers wealth and prosperity and power!

In Jesus day, people knew which one was meant when they were speaking! Jesus is heir.

Teh body /humanity of Jesus was created when the Holy ghost conceived HIm, but HIs Spirit is eternal being God the Son! So Jesus is both created and uncreated. It has been dubbed the hypostatic union.

 

[Johann]

Because God has no sons.

The angels were called bene Elohim only thrice for that what was known about angels and cherubs and seraphs at that time.

First born has two distinctive and different connotations in the ancient languages and cultures.

1. It means the first of at least two who were born. ( they simply did not mean first born if it was an only child)

2. It means heir apparent of the Fathers wealth and prosperity and power!

In Jesus day, people knew which one was meant when they were speaking! Jesus is heir.

Teh body /humanity of Jesus was created when the Holy ghost conceived HIm, but HIs Spirit is eternal being God the Son! So Jesus is both created and uncreated. It has been dubbed the hypostatic union.

Where Robert goes fundamentally wrong...

Protokos


(2) It is used to denote one who is chief, or who is highly distinguished and pre-eminent. Thus, it is employed in Rom_8:29, “That he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

So, in Col_1:18, it is said that he was “the first-born from the dead;” not that he was literally the first that was raised from the dead, which was not the fact, but that he might be pre-eminent among those that are raised; compare Exo_4:22.

The meaning, then, is, that Christ sustains the most exalted rank in the universe; he is pre-eminent above all others; he is at the head of all things. The expression does not mean that he was “begotten before all creatures,” as it is often explained, but refers to the simple fact that he sustains the highest rank over the creation.


He is the Son of God. He is the heir of all things. All other creatures are also the “offspring of God;” but he is exalted as the Son of God above all.
(This clause has been variously explained. The most commonly received, and, as we think, best supported opinion, is that which renders πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως prōtotokos pasēs ktiseōs; “begotten before all creation.” This most natural and obvious sense would have been more readily admitted, had it not been supposed hostile to certain views on the sonship of Christ.

Some explain πρωτότοκος prōtotokos actively, and render “first begetter or producer of all things,” which gives, at all events, a sense consistent with truth and with the context, which immediately assigns as the reason of Christ being styled πρωτότοκος prōtotokos, the clause beginning ὁτι εν αυτω εκτισθη hoti en autō ektisthē, “For by him were all things created.”

Others, with the author explain the word figuratively, of pre-eminence or lordship. To this view however, there are serious objections.
It seems not supported by sufficient evidence. No argument can be drawn from Col_1:18 until it is proved that “firstborn from the dead,” does not mean the first that was raised to die no more, which Doddridge affirms to be “the easiest, surest, most natural sense, in which the best commentators are agreed.”


Nor is the argument from Rom_8:29 satisfactory. “Πρωτότοκος Prōtotokos,” says Bloomfield, at the close of an admirable note on this verse, “is not well taken by Whitby and others, in a figurative sense, to denote ‘Lord of all things, since the word is never so used, except in reference to primogeniture. And although, in Rom_8:29, we have τον ρωτοτοκος εν πολλοις αδελφοις ton prōtotokos en pollois adelphois, yet there his followers a

.re represented not as his creatures, but as his brethren.

On which, and other accounts, the interpretation, according to which we have here a strong testimony to the eternal filiation of our Saviour is greatly preferable; and it is clear that Col_1:15, Col_1:18 are illustrative of the nature, as Col_1:16-17 are an evidence of the pre-existence and divinity of Christ.”)
Vincent
J.

 

[Zao is life]

@Robert Gwin

Psalm 33:6
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Hebrew: ruach) of His mouth."

In Psalm 33:6 the Psalmist is speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit of God, and using imagery that human beings will understand, and the word ruach seen in this verse is specifically referring to the Spirit of God.

Quite obviously, the Word of God and breath of God "proceeding from His own mouth" does not imply that either the Word of God or Spirit of God was created of God.

When Adam and Eve were created, God said to them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the earth, and subdue it. And have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heavens, and all animals that move upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28).

Jesus is called the second man (1 Corinthians 15:47); the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), and He is repeatedly called the Son of Man (example Matthew 12:8). Psalm 8:4-8 says,

"What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor. You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet: all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field; the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas."

As the son of man, Jesus fulfills God's purpose in His creation and the role appointed to Adam, but He is still the logos (Word) of God. He will reign until all enemies are under his feet, then He will hand the Kingdom back to God the Father, ending all (human) rule, authority and power (1 Corinthians 15:20-28), and so when John sees the vision of the New Jerusalem having come down out of from heaven from God, we are told,

"And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb, and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb." (Revelation 21:22-23).

The Lamb is Jesus, the Word of God manifest in a human body. He called Himself the Light of the world and the bread of Life. Throughout scripture we are told that (eternal) Life is in the Word of God. The Word of God is God. Jesus is before all created things:

Colossians 1:15-16
"For all things were created by Him who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born (Greek: prototokos) of all creation, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist."

There is no inconsistency in the Bible about the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is God:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath (Hebrew: ruach of His mouth."

God did not create Himself so that He could create everything else.

Adam was created. Jesus is begotten of the Holy Spirit, who is God.

 

[GEN2REV]

BIGGEST PROOF:

Adam's sin caused him to lose the source of (eternal) life and so when Adam and all the sons of Adam die in their bodies, THEY STAY DEAD. We need Jesus and His Spirit to cause us rise again from the dead:

It was not your intention, but you are supporting my proposition (and thread) that
Only Believers are Resurrected?

And you are correct.

Those who are unbelievers, or who have not received resurrection life into their physical bodies, are not resurrected at all.

ETA: Sorry, Johann. Had to edit the quote source on this one.

 

[Episkopos]

Not created...but begotten.

Ps. 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Heb. 5:5 "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."

The Father has no beginning. The Son was always in the Father but not a separate being until a certain time where He was Begotten to be His Son. So then God divided Himself into parts to assume a GodHead...both Father and Son...joined forever in One Holy Spirit. As such the Son is a smaller version of the greater entity who is the Lord of Hosts...the Most High...He who is holy, holy, holy. Together they are Elohim and share the same name YHVH.

Did the Son pre-exist Creation? Yes...and He was a Creator along with His Father BY the power of God's Spirit.

Did the Son have a beginning? Yes, as a separate entity from His Father. But He is the First and the Last.

Is the Son co-equal with the Father? Not in stature and power...the Father is the Most High. But He is equal in nature and character with the Father.

Are we to grow into the stature of the Father? An emphatic NO...that was the ambition of the devil...as in...I will be like the Most High.


Do we want to be like the Most High in stature? No....I hope not...that would be evil.
Do we want to grow into the full stature of the Son? Yes! That is the will of the Father...that we be just like His Son.

Does Jesus want to have the same stature as the Father? No. The Son glorifies the Father. And the Father glorifies the Son by giving Him greater rulership.

Does that mean that the Father is much greater than the Son? Yes...in stature and power. Our prayers are to be directed to the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Spirit.

As a man Jesus was created...just like us. He is a fusion of the only begotten Son of God AND Creation. As such He is "the firstborn of Creation." What Creation. The New Creation that is IN Him, and the purpose of all creation.

1 Cor. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

 

[DavidB]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)

The issue in Colossians 1:15 as regards eternity is not what rank Jesus had, his preeminence. The translation you use says he is “over” creation. Many translations read he was “of” creation such as American Standard, Amplified, Douay, English Standard, Jerusalem, King James, New American Standard, Revised Standard to mention a few. If Jesus is “of creation” trinitarians have a problem.

Interestingly, protokokos is used again 3 verses later at Colossians 1:18 and reads he is “firstborn from the dead.” I can’t find any Bible that reads “over” the dead.

 

[dev553344]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

The brief answer is that Jesus is not a created being, but He existed from eternity along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.


Although this answer might be familiar to most Christians, it is essential to note that there is opposition from those who claim the contrary.

One of the verses wrongly used to support claims that Jesus was created is the following:

Colossians 1:15 (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

In the above verse, the word “firstborn” has been incorrectly interpreted out of context by some to state that God created Jesus. But, let’s look at another verse to validate the use of the word “firstborn”;

Psalm 87:27 (NIV)

And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.

This verse addresses King David as the firstborn son of Jesse, but was David actually Jesse’s firstborn son? No, he was the last born son.

So why does the verse in Psalms refer to him as a firstborn? It is the same reason it relates to Jesus as the firstborn Son of God – it refers to Him as the pre-eminent or the distinguished Son.

Likewise, in the Colossians verse above, the Greek word used is ‘Prototokos’ which means pre-eminent / distinguished, and when used in context, literally means ‘First in rank.’

While writing Colossians, if Paul wanted to call Jesus a ‘created being,’ he would have used the word for Jesus “Protoktistos,” which Greek scholars mention can be translated as ‘founded’ or ‘first created.’

Additionally, if we continue to read the following verses in Corinthians, Paul declares ‘Jesus was before all things’ meaning before creation itself:

Colossians 1:17 (NIV)

He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Jesus often spoke of His unique origin of having pre-existed in heaven before coming into this world. Here are some clear examples found in scripture.

To the hostile Jews, Jesus declared that there was a distinction between Him and them;

John 8:23 (NKJV)

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above.

You are of this world; I am not of this world.

Jesus also makes His heavenly origin when He addresses His disciples;

John 6:62 (NKJV)

What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend

where He was before?




John 16:28 (NKJV)

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world.

Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

In His high priestly prayer, Jesus also spoke of the glory He had with the Father before the world existed.

John 17:5 (NKJV)

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,

with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

We also have a clear statement from apostle John in his book where he refers to Jesus as the preexistent God who created all things:

John 1:3 (NKJV)

All things were made through Him,

and without Him nothing was made that was made.

In conclusion, Jesus is NOT a created being.

He existed from eternity, and at the appointed time, He chose to come down to earth for the redemption of mankind so that we could be saved from the clutches of sin.

THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE; WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE THAT HAS BEEN MADE.
JOHN 1:3 (NIV)

As you pointed out there is support for both positions in the bible. I don't think this is an important doctrine for me to put a stance either way. I will wait for God to tell me. If I have heard from God about this matter I will then have a stance.

 

[Johann]

The issue in Colossians 1:15 as regards eternity is not what rank Jesus had, his preeminence. The translation you use says he is “over” creation. Many translations read he was “of” creation such as American Standard, Amplified, Douay, English Standard, Jerusalem, King James, New American Standard, Revised Standard to mention a few. If Jesus is “of creation” trinitarians have a problem.

Interestingly, protokokos is used again 3 verses later at Colossians 1:18 and reads he is “firstborn from the dead.” I can’t find any Bible that reads “over” the dead.

This is straw man's arguments, groping, not having solid ground.


the firstborn of every creature; not the first of the creation, or the first creature God made; for all things in Col_1:16 are said to be created by him, and therefore he himself can never be a creature; nor is he the first in the new creation, for the apostle in the context is speaking of the old creation, and not the new:

but the sense either is, that he was begotten of the Father in a manner inconceivable and inexpressible by men, before any creatures were in being; or that he is the "first Parent", or bringer forth of every creature into being, as the word will bear to be rendered, if instead of πρωτοτοκος, we read πρωτοτοκος; which is no more than changing the place of the accent, and may be very easily ventured upon, as is done by an ancient writer (g),

who observes, that the word is used in this sense by Homer, and is the same as πρωτογονος, "first Parent", and πρωτοκτιστης, "first Creator"; and the rather this may be done, seeing the accents were all added since the apostle's days, and especially seeing it makes his reasoning, in the following verses, appear with much more beauty, strength, and force:

.. he is the first Parent of every creature, "for by him were all things created", &c. Col_1:16, or it may be understood of Christ, as the King, Lord, and Governor of all creatures; being God's firstborn, he is heir of all things, the right of government belongs to him; he is higher than the kings of the earth, or the angels in heaven, the highest rank of creatures, being the Creator and upholder of all, as the following words show;

.. so the Jews make the word "firstborn" to be synonymous with the word "king", and explain it by גדול ושר, "a great one", and "a prince" (h); see Psa_89:27.

The preeminence of Christ Jesus, the Great One, King, Priest and Prophet

That in all things he might have the preeminence (hina genētai en pāsin autos prōteuōn). Purpose clause with hina and the second aorist middle subjunctive of ginomai, “that he himself in all things (material and spiritual) may come to (genētai, not ēi, be) hold the first place” (prōteuōn, present active participle of prōteuō, old verb, to hold the first place, here only in the N.T.). Christ is first with Paul in time and in rank. Rev_1:5 for this same use of prōtotokos with tōn nekrōn (the dead).

J.

 

[Johann]

As you pointed out there is support for both positions in the bible. I don't think this is an important doctrine for me to put a stance either way. I will wait for God to tell me. If I have heard from God about this matter I will then have a stance.

Might not be an important doctrine for you but definitely a champion cause for me, to the doxa of the Father, and our Lord Christ Jesus.
As for waiting on God to reveal this to you, it is already written in Scripture, all you need is illumination in and through the Holy Spirit.
J.

 

[dev553344]

Might not be an important doctrine for you but definitely a champion cause for me, to the doxa of the Father, and our Lord Christ Jesus.
As for waiting on God to reveal this to you, it is already written in Scripture, all you need is illumination in and through the Holy Spirit.
J.

Well God the Father is a being and so is God the Son. What is a father and a son? The bodies of our children are created from the elements and DNA from our bodies, mother and father. Jesus' body was created from the Holy Ghost and by God. I've had communion with the Holy Ghost on about 4 different occasions. And in one of those times I saw Jesus' spirit within the Holy Ghost as a white and holy spirit. So I don't deny that fact in my beliefs.

So then it would seem the question is not whether the body of Jesus was created because it says in the bible that the body of Jesus was created by the Holy Ghost. But it would seem my lack of knowledge is in whether or not his spirit was created. And I don't have an answer to that.

Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

So you could say Jesus the Christ (Body) was created and also perhaps existed before time with God (Spirit). This may be why the scriptures indicate both.

 

[Behold]

This question touches on two important matters ‘is Jesus is eternal?’ or ‘was Jesus created by God for the forgiveness of mankind’s sins?’

Jesus is both the Eternal Word made flesh, come down from Heaven, and He's also the virgin born Son of God, who is the 2nd Adam.

I can't understand why some people have to obsessively try to pin the Deity of Christ down, into a nutshell.

Listen.

God made man.. and woman

1.) Out of DIRT
2.) Out of a man's RIB
3.) From a Virgin's womb
4..) From sexual intercourse between a woman and a man.

That is 4 different ways, God "made man"..... including "in our Image".

So, is it such a hard thing for many to understand that Christ is Both Deity come down from heaven, and JESUS as one of Us, = a human, who walked here on the earth that HE MADE ? John 1:10

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Rev 22:16 . . I am the offspring of David

The Greek word translated "offspring" is genos (ghen'-os) which basically
refers to kin, viz: one's relatives.

Christ's relationship with David gets down to the nitty-gritty in Rom 1:1-3
where it says:

"Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to
the flesh"

The Greek word translated "seed" in that passage is sperma (sper'-mah)
which is a bit ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual progeny as well as
to biological progeny; for example:

• Gal 3:29 . . If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.

That seed is obviously spiritual progeny; whereas David's is biological
because it's "according to the flesh" i.e. his physical human body.

Seeing as Jesus' dad Joseph played no role in his son's conception, and his
wife was a virgin at the time, then Jesus' biological relationship with David
defaulted thru his mother. (Luke 1:32)

NOTE: Christ's genealogy may be somewhat insignificant to most Gentiles,
but Jesus' biological relationship with David is extremely important to the
Jews because in order to validate Jesus' right to rule over the land of Israel,
he absolutely has to be biologically situated in the Davidic dynasty: no
getting around it. (2Sam 7:8-17 & Ps 89:3-4)

Anyway: unless it can proven beyond a hint of sensible doubt that David was
never biologically related to Abraham, and by him to Adam; then we must
concede that his grandson Jesus was also biologically related to Abraham,
and by him to Adam-- which is problematic for some Christians because they
simply cannot believe it's possible for someone to exist as creator and
created simultaneously, i.e. as an eternal being while at the same time a
common being, i.e. a creature made of dust.
_

 

[Johann]

The Father has no beginning. The Son was always in the Father but not a separate being until a certain time where He was Begotten to be His Son. So then God divided Himself into parts to assume a GodHead...both Father and Son...joined forever in One Holy Spirit. As such the Son is a smaller version of the greater entity who is the Lord of Hosts...the Most High...He who is holy, holy, holy. Together they are Elohim and share the same name YHVH.

I stopped reading @Episkopos since what you have typed here makes no sense at all, no offence, I am not here for likes or see how many trophies I can win..I am familiar with Koine Greek but what you are doing is philosophizing, saying things, adding to and take away from the inerrant God-breathed holy scriptures and not one scripture reference.

It was for a reason and purpose I chose these topics since my, and yours, eternal destination is at stake here..

It would seem, that for the majority here the question "Who is Jesus" is still a mystery.



Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

If I could I would write a book on what I have learned here in these past weeks
Shalom brother
J.