You want to 'downplay' the Deity of Y'howshua HaMashiach?
You are correct, this is my pathos, zest and zeal FOR the Deity of Christ, no offense.
J.
Was Jesus a 'created being?'
- Thread starter Johann
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You are correct, this is my pathos, zest and zeal FOR the Deity of Christ, no offense.
J.
Brothers .... @Johann and @Fullness of the Gentiles ....another brother who hasn't been on these forum discussions, just sent me this link this morning. I'm listening to it now and it addresses what we are discussing now ....the Triune Godhead, Christ's divinity, His eternal existence, the incarnation, etc.
Powerful man, powerful Voddie!
Thank you for sharing this and I agree, we should be more bold in proclaiming the Triune Godhead and I believe this will separate the mere "professions" in name only, especially on forums from those who are genuine born from above believers in Christ.
And correct, Jesus is portrait as a "feminine, sissiefied" Savior on that cross in movies but when you study Is. 53 Christ was unrecognizable, couldn't tell if He was a man or not, bloodied, in our stead...
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a Shoresh (Root, Shoresh Yishai, Moshiach, Yeshayah 11:10, Sanhedrin93b) out of a dry ground; he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire [Chaggai 2:7] him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and chadal ishim (rejected by men); a man of sorrows, and acquainted with suffering; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei'avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach's) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
OJB
Powerful sermon
J.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us.
Most Christians readily attest that Jesus (a.k.a. Y'shua) is both God and
Man, but typically without knowing why he's God, nor knowing how he
obtained divine status. Well; the thing is; Jesus could not be a high priest
seated at the right hand of God in Heaven without divinity; so that had to be
addressed.
• Heb 7:1-3 . .This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most
High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed
him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. . . .Without father or
mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the
Son of God he remains a priest forever.
* The reference is to Gen 14:1-20 where Abraham fielded an army to rescue
his nephew Lot from a foreign invader named Chedorlaomer.
From a certain point of view, Mel is a self-existent eternal being, viz: there's
no record of his birth and there's no record of his death; indicating that
priests patterned after Melchizedek have to be men who were never born,
and who have yet to die.
Jesus is often claimed to be a self-existent eternal being right from his
mother's womb, but no, he wasn't. From the information we have to work
with; Jesus was a normal Jewish man whose blood was David's and
Abraham's, i.e. Jesus wasn't some sort of divine hominid; instead, he was a
typical h.sapiens-- the Bible has his genealogy, plus a record of his birth,
and a record of his death. However; Jesus is no longer reckoned a mere
mortal in Heaven due to a very strange administrative procedure.
As compensation for his exceptional service to both God and fellow men; Isa
52:13 and Phil 2:6-11 reveal that God bestowed upon Jesus Christ the name
that is above every name that can be named either in Heaven, on earth, and
under the earth. That name is Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh. (Isa 42:8)
So; Jesus is now officially authorized to be respected, to be identified, to be
spoken of, to be spoken to, and to speak for himself, by the name of God,
i.e. The Almighty. (Ps 45:1-7, Rev 1:8)
Ergo: as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus is a self-existent eternal being
because his identity by the name of God affords him all the attributes of
God: the whole ball of wax, so to speak.
OBJECTION: The Bible says God doesn't share His divinity. (Isa 42:8)
REPLY: That passage speaks of pagans and their religions: it doesn't preclude
the possibility of God sharing divinity with His only begotten son within the
walls of His own home.
Bottom line: Jesus easily qualifies for the position of a high priest seated at
the right hand of God in Heaven because as Jehovah he had neither father
nor mother, nor is there a record of his birth or of his death.
Messiah's path to divinity may seem a tad ridiculous-- maybe even
fraudulent --but it's the path chosen for him so we have to work with it.
OBJECTION: Your explanation can't possibly be right; not when Deut 6:4
says; "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, The Lord is one." You Christians
have two acting as Jehovah, whereas the Law allows for only one.
REPLY: Jesus' identity as Jehovah is an administrative credential which can
be roughly compared to the purpose of the signature ring that Pharaoh lent
Joseph. (Gen 41:39-44)
* Jesus' credential was promised to his ancestor Zerubbabel by Haggai 2:21-23
_
• John 1:14 . . So the Word became human and lived here on earth among us.
Most Christians readily attest that Jesus (a.k.a. Y'shua) is both God and
Man, but typically without knowing why he's God, nor knowing how he
obtained divine status. Well; the thing is; Jesus could not be a high priest
seated at the right hand of God in Heaven without divinity; so that had to be
addressed.
• Heb 7:1-3 . .This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most
High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed
him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. . . .Without father or
mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the
Son of God he remains a priest forever.
* The reference is to Gen 14:1-20 where Abraham fielded an army to rescue
his nephew Lot from a foreign invader named Chedorlaomer.
From a certain point of view, Mel is a self-existent eternal being, viz: there's
no record of his birth and there's no record of his death; indicating that
priests patterned after Melchizedek have to be men who were never born,
and who have yet to die.
Jesus is often claimed to be a self-existent eternal being right from his
mother's womb, but no, he wasn't. From the information we have to work
with; Jesus was a normal Jewish man whose blood was David's and
Abraham's, i.e. Jesus wasn't some sort of divine hominid; instead, he was a
typical h.sapiens-- the Bible has his genealogy, plus a record of his birth,
and a record of his death. However; Jesus is no longer reckoned a mere
mortal in Heaven due to a very strange administrative procedure.
As compensation for his exceptional service to both God and fellow men; Isa
52:13 and Phil 2:6-11 reveal that God bestowed upon Jesus Christ the name
that is above every name that can be named either in Heaven, on earth, and
under the earth. That name is Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh. (Isa 42:8)
So; Jesus is now officially authorized to be respected, to be identified, to be
spoken of, to be spoken to, and to speak for himself, by the name of God,
i.e. The Almighty. (Ps 45:1-7, Rev 1:8)
Ergo: as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus is a self-existent eternal being
because his identity by the name of God affords him all the attributes of
God: the whole ball of wax, so to speak.
OBJECTION: The Bible says God doesn't share His divinity. (Isa 42:8)
REPLY: That passage speaks of pagans and their religions: it doesn't preclude
the possibility of God sharing divinity with His only begotten son within the
walls of His own home.
Bottom line: Jesus easily qualifies for the position of a high priest seated at
the right hand of God in Heaven because as Jehovah he had neither father
nor mother, nor is there a record of his birth or of his death.
Messiah's path to divinity may seem a tad ridiculous-- maybe even
fraudulent --but it's the path chosen for him so we have to work with it.
OBJECTION: Your explanation can't possibly be right; not when Deut 6:4
says; "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, The Lord is one." You Christians
have two acting as Jehovah, whereas the Law allows for only one.
REPLY: Jesus' identity as Jehovah is an administrative credential which can
be roughly compared to the purpose of the signature ring that Pharaoh lent
Joseph. (Gen 41:39-44)
* Jesus' credential was promised to his ancestor Zerubbabel by Haggai 2:21-23
_
"God of God,
Light of Light,
Lo, He abhorred not the virgin's womb,
Verily God, begotten, not created,
O come let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord!"
John 1 confirms that 'without Him was not anything made that was made': He is the Creator and not the created.
Light of Light,
Lo, He abhorred not the virgin's womb,
Verily God, begotten, not created,
O come let us adore Him,
Christ the Lord!"
John 1 confirms that 'without Him was not anything made that was made': He is the Creator and not the created.
Ohhhhh....this makes my heart rejoice! He is so GOOD!!! And His truths ....wow, my heart is full to overflowing!
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
@Fullness of the Gentiles
Can we agree that you came to this conclusion in post#11 & #3 so that we can discuss the implications in another thread?
Or will you deny that you made that assertion at all?
Can we agree that you came to this conclusion in post#11 & #3 so that we can discuss the implications in another thread?
Or will you deny that you made that assertion at all?
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I see, well Joe, to each their own. Best not to alter the passages when posting them sir.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
This is off the subject but I think it's something that needs saying from time
to time.
Internet forums have given many of Christ's obscure followers a convenient
venue for sharing their time-won knowledge and experience with a
worldwide audience. For the world's sake, I highly recommend making an
effort to compose legible posts; neatly arranged, sensible, coherent, and
tidy.
Excessive bolding, underscoring, and italics, lack of adequate paragraphing,
twitter spelling, unnecessary emogies, horrible grammar, confusing mixtures
of fonts and colors, and/or shouting with caps and oversize letters, makes
for tiresome clutter and annoying graffiti that leave a bad impression.
Some people's posts resemble the obnoxious placards of worked-up
protesters and political activists; yelling, shrieking, and sometimes even
spraying spittle. They are beyond reason and objectivity in their desperation
to be taken seriously. Apparently they assume that if only they shout loud
enough, make themselves irritating enough, and hold out long enough;
maybe they'll get their point across and somebody will finally listen.
I rather suspect that some people regard forums as a canvas for painting
their comments instead of composing them. Well; that might be okay for
outsiders, they can scrawl and splash and be as messy as they want because
their comments don't matter anyway. But for those of us who honestly
believe ourselves to be representing God's son; that kind of penmanship is
unacceptable because it reflects on Christ and makes him look like his
followers are desperate kooks.
_
This is off the subject but I think it's something that needs saying from time
to time.
Internet forums have given many of Christ's obscure followers a convenient
venue for sharing their time-won knowledge and experience with a
worldwide audience. For the world's sake, I highly recommend making an
effort to compose legible posts; neatly arranged, sensible, coherent, and
tidy.
Excessive bolding, underscoring, and italics, lack of adequate paragraphing,
twitter spelling, unnecessary emogies, horrible grammar, confusing mixtures
of fonts and colors, and/or shouting with caps and oversize letters, makes
for tiresome clutter and annoying graffiti that leave a bad impression.
Some people's posts resemble the obnoxious placards of worked-up
protesters and political activists; yelling, shrieking, and sometimes even
spraying spittle. They are beyond reason and objectivity in their desperation
to be taken seriously. Apparently they assume that if only they shout loud
enough, make themselves irritating enough, and hold out long enough;
maybe they'll get their point across and somebody will finally listen.
I rather suspect that some people regard forums as a canvas for painting
their comments instead of composing them. Well; that might be okay for
outsiders, they can scrawl and splash and be as messy as they want because
their comments don't matter anyway. But for those of us who honestly
believe ourselves to be representing God's son; that kind of penmanship is
unacceptable because it reflects on Christ and makes him look like his
followers are desperate kooks.
_
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
All the Bible says about God's salvation is said about Jesus:
Only one God, only one Savior:
Isaiah 43:10-13
"You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?"
Isaiah 45:20-25
"Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, escaped ones of the nations; those who set up the wood of their graven image, and those that pray to a god that cannot save. They know nothing. Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
He says, Only in the LORD do I have righteousness and strength; even to Him he comes. And they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
Titus 1:1-4
"Paul, a servant of God (Greek: θεός theós) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God. who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed in its own times in a proclamation of His word, with which I was entrusted by the command of God (Greek: θεός theós) our Savior, to Titus, a true child according to our common faith. Grace mercy and peace from God (Greek: θεός theós) the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior."
Philippians 2:5-11
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18).
"Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live." John 11:25
Jesus came down from heaven:
"Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.
Then they said to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst.
But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out. For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:32-40
Jesus was born of a virgin. He has no human father. He is not the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, but the Son of God. Through His mother He is a descendant of David, but He Has no human father.
Only one God, only one Savior:
Isaiah 43:10-13
"You are My witnesses, says the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me no God was formed, nor shall there be after Me. I, I am the LORD; and there is none to save besides Me. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore you are My witnesses, says the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was, I am He; and no one delivers out of My hand; I will work, and who will reverse it?"
Isaiah 45:20-25
"Gather yourselves and come; draw near together, escaped ones of the nations; those who set up the wood of their graven image, and those that pray to a god that cannot save. They know nothing. Declare and bring near; yea, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this of old? Who has told it from then? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides Me. Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
He says, Only in the LORD do I have righteousness and strength; even to Him he comes. And they are ashamed, all who are angry with Him. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
Titus 1:1-4
"Paul, a servant of God (Greek: θεός theós) and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, in the acknowledging of the truth which is according to godliness on hope of eternal life, which God. who cannot lie, promised before the eternal times, but revealed in its own times in a proclamation of His word, with which I was entrusted by the command of God (Greek: θεός theós) our Savior, to Titus, a true child according to our common faith. Grace mercy and peace from God (Greek: θεός theós) the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior."
Philippians 2:5-11
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18).
========================================
Remember: Man cannot save man (sin cannot save sin). Only God is Savior. There is no one besides Him. God needed to become a man in order to save man:=======================================
"For since death is through man, the [ἀνάστασις anástasis] resurrection of the dead also is through a Man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all will be [ζωοποιέω zōopoiéō] made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the [ἀπαρχή aparchḗ ] first-fruit, and [ἔπειτα épeita] afterward they who are Christ's at His [παρουσία parousía] coming." 1 Corinthians 15:21-23
"Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live." John 11:25
Jesus came down from heaven:
"Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses did not give you that bread from Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from Heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.
Then they said to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst.
But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out. For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:32-40
Jesus was born of a virgin. He has no human father. He is not the seed of Abraham according to the flesh, but the Son of God. Through His mother He is a descendant of David, but He Has no human father.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
And some are long-winded subtly obnoxious posts of drivel and insult, carefully crafted posts of hypocrisy, that could have been said in one sentence if they were meant to be taken seriously.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
That's a false statement beginning a list of false statements in a very long-winded post full of personal opinions based on personal interpretations of scripture.
For the world's sake, please reference scripture and the specific scriptures you claim supports your thesis.
He did not "obtain" divine status. No human being attains divine status. He had divine status, set His divine status aside, and was born into the world, born of a virgin.
You're showing that you have absolutely no understanding of the gospel or the reason as to why He (God, the Word through whom all things were created) would become a man.
Your posts goes on like this, on and on full of unbiblical falsehoods:
No, His blood was not that of a normal Jewish man whose blood was David's and Abraham's. He was conceived in the womb of a virgin by the Holy Spirit.
The rest of your post builds on the same drivel.
For your own sake, study the scriptures before you post such nonsense.
. and believe the New Testament, then posts on Christian matters.
Last edited:
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Eve was made with material taken from Adam's body rather than from the
dust as his body was made. So then, Eve was the beginning of Adam's
biological posterity.
From thence; every human being that ever descended from Eve is
biologically related to Adam the same as she was.
Now, unless someone can prove beyond even a hint of sensible doubt that
Jesus' mom was in no way biologically related to Eve, then we must concede
that he was biologically related to Eve too; and if so, then also biologically
related to Adam.
Some folks, in a desperate attempt to break Jesus' biological connection to
Adam, have suggested that Mary was his surrogate mother rather than his
biological mother. In other words; they suggest that Jesus' "conception" was
a miraculous implant, i.e. the infant Jesus was a test-tube baby; so to speak.
_
Eve was made with material taken from Adam's body rather than from the
dust as his body was made. So then, Eve was the beginning of Adam's
biological posterity.
From thence; every human being that ever descended from Eve is
biologically related to Adam the same as she was.
Now, unless someone can prove beyond even a hint of sensible doubt that
Jesus' mom was in no way biologically related to Eve, then we must concede
that he was biologically related to Eve too; and if so, then also biologically
related to Adam.
Some folks, in a desperate attempt to break Jesus' biological connection to
Adam, have suggested that Mary was his surrogate mother rather than his
biological mother. In other words; they suggest that Jesus' "conception" was
a miraculous implant, i.e. the infant Jesus was a test-tube baby; so to speak.
_
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I wish you did. but because you deny the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead you make it obvious you don't.
Angels are created things and are not sons as sons are understood. Jesu8s is God the son and the only being (in His humanity) begotten of God.
@Ronald Nolette Hebrews 1 is indeed a very helpful passage pointing to the big difference between angels and the Lord Jesus.
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