Was Jesus a law breaker?

[BarneyFife]

And yet... Jesus did exactly that!

He brought forth a rest that is far superior than anything Saturday sabbath could do as it could not bring life along with the rest of the Law of Moses that couldn't bring life.

Here's REST according to the New Covenant... is it's not speaking of keeping Saturday sabbath!

Hebrews 4:4-11
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:6 tells us "to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief" so those living under the Law of Moses did not enter in to God's REST... even though they were observing Saturday sabbath!

What the Lord's Word is speaking of in Hebrews 4:8 is what we have under the New Covenant which is resting in faith IN Christ... not just one day a week, but ALL days.

Therefore Saturday sabbath does not meet the higher standards Jesus Christ has brought forth for His people in the New Covenant due to it's better promises.

Maybe some day... the sabbatarians can come on over in to the New Covenant and let Jesus be their High Priest rather than trying to go back and live under Moses.

Double down gobbledygook

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[Big Boy Johnson]

Double down gobbledygook

One must be led by the Holy Ghost to understand the New Covenant and the clear text there in that tell us the old covenant has been taken away along with the Law of Moses and replaced by the New Covenant.

Resting and worshiping the Lord one day a week has been replaced with Resting and worshiping the Lord ALL days by abiding IN Christ ceasing from ALL of our own works not just physical works.

Obviously you like the old covenant better than the new so... carry on. Hope that "works" out for ya!

 

[Mr E]

...in which, He condemned sin.

Sorry, I don't see how any of this is relevant to whether or not Jesus sinned. I'd like to, but I don't.

.

I'm sorry you don't see it also.

I'm making a differentiation between the spirit above that descended and that flesh formed below. The sinless spirit that became the sinful flesh. There's no good flesh-- you know that right? Jesus was a man. The spirit-- like a dove, descended upon him.

 

[Tulipbee]

We have many who accuse or claim that Jesus was a law breaker and use some of these verses..

Matthew 12:1
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

Mark 3:2
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

People say He was with the disciples on the sabbath when they plucked corn and also the healing on the sabbath, so was He a law breaker? Why or Why not.

Understanding Jesus and the Sabbath​

The incidents mentioned in Matthew 12:1 and Mark 3:2 are indeed often cited by those who claim that Jesus was a lawbreaker. However, it's important to understand these events in their full context.
In Matthew 12:1, Jesus and his disciples were walking through a field of grain on the Sabbath. The disciples were hungry and began to pluck ears of corn to eat. This action was seen as work, which was prohibited on the Sabbath according to Jewish law. However, Jesus defended their actions by referring to an incident involving David in the Old Testament, where David and his men ate the consecrated bread from the temple when they were hungry, which was technically against the law. Jesus used this example to illustrate that human need can sometimes take precedence over religious law.
In Mark 3:2, Jesus healed a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath. Again, this was seen as work and therefore a violation of the Sabbath. However, Jesus challenged this interpretation by asking if it was lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save life or to kill. His argument was that doing good, such as healing someone, was not a violation of the spirit of the Sabbath.
In both these instances, Jesus was not disregarding the law but rather challenging the interpretation and application of the law. He was emphasizing the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, as Jesus stated in Mark 2:27. This means that the Sabbath was intended for the benefit of human beings, and should not be an oppressive burden.
So, was Jesus a lawbreaker? From a certain perspective, one could argue that he broke the religious laws as they were interpreted and enforced by the religious leaders of his time. However, from another perspective, Jesus was upholding the true spirit and intent of the law, which was to promote love, mercy, and the well-being of people. Therefore, it could be argued that Jesus was not a lawbreaker, but rather a law fulfiller, as he claimed in Matthew 5:17.

 

[Mr E]

Understanding Jesus and the Sabbath​

The incidents mentioned in Matthew 12:1 and Mark 3:2 are indeed often cited by those who claim that Jesus was a lawbreaker. However, it's important to understand these events in their full context.
In Matthew 12:1, Jesus and his disciples were walking through a field of grain on the Sabbath. The disciples were hungry and began to pluck ears of corn to eat. This action was seen as work, which was prohibited on the Sabbath according to Jewish law. However, Jesus defended their actions by referring to an incident involving David in the Old Testament, where David and his men ate the consecrated bread from the temple when they were hungry, which was technically against the law. Jesus used this example to illustrate that human need can sometimes take precedence over religious law.
In Mark 3:2, Jesus healed a man with a withered hand on the Sabbath. Again, this was seen as work and therefore a violation of the Sabbath. However, Jesus challenged this interpretation by asking if it was lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath, to save life or to kill. His argument was that doing good, such as healing someone, was not a violation of the spirit of the Sabbath.
In both these instances, Jesus was not disregarding the law but rather challenging the interpretation and application of the law. He was emphasizing the spirit of the law over the letter of the law. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, as Jesus stated in Mark 2:27. This means that the Sabbath was intended for the benefit of human beings, and should not be an oppressive burden.
So, was Jesus a lawbreaker? From a certain perspective, one could argue that he broke the religious laws as they were interpreted and enforced by the religious leaders of his time. However, from another perspective, Jesus was upholding the true spirit and intent of the law, which was to promote love, mercy, and the well-being of people. Therefore, it could be argued that Jesus was not a lawbreaker, but rather a law fulfiller, as he claimed in Matthew 5:17.

It's probably the dumbest defense that exists.

It's the equivalent of 'I sped through the school zone because I'm a doctor and I was going to a surgery.'

Would that in any way change the fact that I broke the law?

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm sorry you don't see it also.

I'm making a differentiation between the spirit above that descended and that flesh formed below. The sinless spirit that became the sinful flesh. There's no good flesh-- you know that right? Jesus was a man. The spirit-- like a dove, descended upon him.

Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Spirit-flesh-sin

Did He sin or not?

Was He flesh or not?

Spirit-flesh; flesh-sin; Spirit-sin

My head hurts.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He had the Spirit, at will, without measure from His birth.

The Spirit at the Jordan was a manifestation of God's anointing of His public ministry.
He stiil had the Spirit, at will, without measure, no more, no less than He did from birth.

These things are simple.

Bible teachers and preachers complicate them.

It's nothing personal. Honestly.

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[Tulipbee]

It's probably the dumbest defense that exists.

It's the equivalent of 'I sped through the school zone because I'm a doctor and I was going to a surgery.'

Would that in any way change the fact that I broke the law?

Calvin's Comedy Corner: The Sabbath Speed Limit​

Ah, Mr. E, I see you've taken a sharp turn into the school zone of Sabbath law with the same gusto as a doctor late for surgery! But let's tap the brakes and see what our good friend John Calvin might say about this.
Calvin on the Law: Calvin would likely chuckle at your comparison and then remind us that, "The law was given, not to retain a people for itself, but to keep alive the hope of salvation in Christ until his advent." (John Calvin, Commentary on the Gospel according to John). So, if Jesus is the doctor rushing to perform surgery, perhaps the surgery is the healing of our very souls!
Calvin on Jesus and the Sabbath: Calvin might say that Jesus wasn't breaking the Sabbath speed limit; He was the one who wrote the traffic laws in the first place! He'd probably quote Jesus in Matthew 5:17, where He says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Jesus wasn't disregarding the law; He was showing us the heart behind it.
Calvin on the Errors of Arminianism, Prevenient Grace, and Wesley: And while we're discussing law and grace, let's not forget Calvin's thoughts on Arminianism and Wesley's prevenient grace. He'd likely argue that these views set up a spiritual speed trap, suggesting we can somehow contribute to our own salvation. But Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Proclaiming the Gospel: So, Mr. E, while you may think Jesus' defense is the "dumbest" around, in the grand comedy club of theology, Calvin would remind us that the Gospel isn't about following the letter of the law to the point of absurdity. It's about understanding the spirit of the law, which is fulfilled in Christ. And that's no joke! As Calvin would say, "We must make the invisible Kingdom visible in our midst." (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion)
In the end, it's not about whether Jesus was a lawbreaker, but about Him being the law-fulfiller, the ultimate physician coming to our rescue. And that, my friends, is the good news that gets us all out of the theological traffic jam and onto the highway of grace. Now, who's up for some more gospel clarity with a side of laughter? #CalvinistComedyClub #GospelClarityLinguistics

 

[Mr E]

Calvin's Theological Traffic School...

 

[BarneyFife]

One must be led by the Holy Ghost to understand the New Covenant and the clear text there in that tell us the old covenant has been taken away along with the Law of Moses and replaced by the New Covenant.

Resting and worshiping the Lord one day a week has been replaced with Resting and worshiping the Lord ALL days by abiding IN Christ ceasing from ALL of our own works not just physical works.

"Holy Ghost" evasion/addition to the double-down gobbledygook

Obviously you like the old covenant better than the new so... carry on. Hope that "works" out for ya!

Please stop telling me that I like something that never saved anyone. No one has ever been saved by keeping moral or any other kind of law. It's absolutely absurd, because we start sinning before we even know what sin is, which puts us beyond the hope of salvation by works.

And "Hope that 'works' out for ya" is just more of your obnoxious, pseudo-sly, patronizing, condemnation innuendo. You're not fooling anyone.

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[Big Boy Johnson]

Well, I've seen some of the literature from your religion and the claim is there that those that do not observe Saturday sabbath was not in right standing with the Lord.

So if you believe those that don't observe Saturday sabbath are not disqualified from salvation, WHY do you make such a big deal out of it and claim it's a requirement?

In spite of the FACT that it's not a requirement anywhere in the New Testament?

 

[Scott Downey]

It was not a sin for Jesus to break the sabbath Law as it says that He is LORD even of the sabbath.
Christ is ONE who is greater than the temple, sabbath and all things.
The one who wrote the Book, can change the laws, times and seasons of the relationship that men have with God as He sees fit. And Christ was all about establishing a new covenant of God with mankind.

5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple [a]profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord [b]even of the Sabbath.”

Hebrews 8
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[BarneyFife]

Well, I've seen some of the literature from your religion and the claim is there that those that do not observe Saturday sabbath was not in right standing with the Lord.

Individual Sabbatarians don't necessarily represent the literature you've seen. So you should really stop making the claim that they do in order to avoid the genetic fallacy error.

So if you believe those that don't observe Saturday sabbath are not disqualified from salvation, WHY do you make such a big deal out of it and claim it's a requirement?

For the same reason I believe it's important for Christians, of all people, not to worship other Gods, bow down to idols, take the LORD's name in vain, dishonor parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, or covet.

I didn't make the list on tablets of stone with my own finger—God did that.

And I don't believe "those that don't observe Saturday sabbath are not disqualified from salvation," any more than I believe that all who don't keep the Sabbath have, or will be "disqualified from salvation," because I'm not capable of judging what a person's heart has been convicted of—God does that, too.

Again, this stuff is simple, but Bible teachers and preachers make it complicated by excessive interpretation of what God has made plain in His Word.

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[Mr E]

It was not a sin for Jesus to break the sabbath Law as it says that He is LORD even of the sabbath.
Christ is ONE who is greater than the temple, sabbath and all things.
The one who wrote the Book, can change the laws, times and seasons of the relationship that men have with God as He sees fit. And Christ was all about establishing a new covenant of God with mankind.

5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple [a]profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord [b]even of the Sabbath.”

Hebrews 8
13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This at least, is an honest argument. We can disagree on whether it's a sin, or not-- to break the law, but there is no disputing that Jesus really did break the law.

 

[Scott Downey]

Christ is the END of the LAW for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for [a]Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

 

[BarneyFife]

there is no disputing that Jesus really did break the law.

I think Jesus Himself disputes it:

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)

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[Scott Downey]

3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Since I have submitted to the righteousness of God, for me there is no more righteousness required of me by the Law of Moses. It is ended, it is finished. It is obsoleted.

The OC law is passed, the OC and the Law of Moses, no longer exists.
Today, the only way to be righteous with God is to believe in His Son.
It is also called the Law of Faith.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

It sure seems like the sabatarians have an aversion to the New Covenant for some odd reason

Individual Sabbatarians don't necessarily represent the literature you've seen

It's on websites published by sabbatarians!

There's lots of pro sabbatarian websites out there that claim to teach others all about sabbatarianism

because I'm not capable of judging what a person's heart has been convicted of—God does that, too.

That does seem not to fit with your other posts up till now where your theme has been it's a requirement.

Are you back peddling now and saying it's NOT a requirement for New Testament believers?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I think Jesus Himself disputes it:

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. (John 15:10)

Which proves the Saturday sabbath was no longer His Father's commandment when Jesus did good works on the sabbath.

 

[Scott Downey]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all [f]and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified [g]freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a [h]propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded​

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is [i]justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

we establish the law

That would be... the Law of Christ.