Was Jesus a law breaker?

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BarneyFife

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OK, so one cannot believe what some sabbatarians concerning what they believe.

Should this apply to you as well? Or, do you have the official scoop from the sabbatarians?

I can't speak for everyone who keeps the Sabbath.

OK, so yon on hand you say Saturday sabbath is not required for salvation.

No, I don't say that. I say that commandment-keeping cannot secure salvation.

I don't try to devise interpretations of what Scripture makes plain.

It is necessary to resolve paradoxes in deep Bible study.

If one passage seems to contradict another, an understanding has to be arrived at the will allow for both to be correct.

Christianity today strongly encourages drive-thru, fast food-type study.

Then, on the other hand you imply Jesus has commanded Saturday sabbath even though this cannot be proven from any of Jesus' teachings of in any of His teachings thru His Apostles.

He commanded it at Sinai. And He is at liberty to decline to chew His cabbage twice if He so desires.

You may infer whatever you like. What I seem to imply is of no consequence.

Since you are claiming Saturday sabbath is a moral duty to God, aren't you implying that after one gets born again, if they don't keep their Saturday sabbath "duty" (meaning requirement) they are no long in right standing with the Lord?

Again, infer; imply. I can't help what you think.

I make mistakes just like everyone else, but I try very hard to say what I mean, and mean what I say.

You seem to be riding the fence... can't you just say one way or the other?

Your questions keep changing.

I'm not trying to figure out what I can get away with and yet be saved.

What I believe is clear in my mind, but I can't anticipate what your next formulation of a question to justify breaking the 4th commandment will be.

Under the Law of Moses when Saturday sabbath was originally given to the Jews.. it was NOT lawful to do ANY work on the Sabbath at all.

The situation under the Jewish Theocracy was different than today. All-or-nothing thinking will never result in a clear understanding of that.

Since Jesus is telling us it is now lawful to work on the Sabbath, this tells us something had change.

He is not telling us that is now lawful to work on the Sabbath.

What changed is what has always changed—man—not God.

The types and symbols of the Jewish religion (which include none of the Ten Commandments) are no longer necessary to be observed now that the antitype of Christ has been revealed.

But they are still profitable for doctrine, instruction in righteousness, etc.

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BarneyFife

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Meh, he'll just continue to claim Saturday sabbath is not part of the Law of Moses.
Those sabbatarians always remain loyal to the doctrines of their supreme leader, Ellen G White

They have to in order to remain in good standing at their church... which is no different to how things work at other types of churches. Any church one attends, you have to obey their doctrine or you get the left foot of fellowship!
View attachment 39670

Obnoxious, mocking ad hominem

Preferrable to honest discussion for you, I guess.

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Big Boy Johnson

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Obnoxious, mocking ad hominem

Everyone has their own opinion... the "ad hominem" part is always a nice touch.

Let's others know that if they dare disagree with the sabbatarians and say so in public, it is considered by the sabbatarians to be a direct attack on the sabbatarians.

They can dish it out and tell others they believe wrong . . . but they can't take it when some one tells them they are wrong! rolleyes3.gif
 

Big Boy Johnson

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If one passage seems to contradict another, an understanding has to be arrived at the will allow for both to be correct.

Well, lots of proof that there are major differences between the old and new covenants...

Your questions keep changing.

I'm not trying to figure out what I can get away with and yet be saved.

What I believe is clear in my mind, but I can't anticipate what your next formulation of a question to justify breaking the 4th commandment will be.

Nice dodge! Professional grade! thumbsup2.gif


He is not telling us that is now lawful to work on the Sabbath.

You were saying before that we should walk as He walked.

He worked on the sabbath, so we can to... because IN Christ the Saturday sabbath rest is obsolete due to a rest far better having replaced it.
 

BarneyFife

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Everyone has their own opinion... the "ad hominem" part is always a nice touch.

The definition of ad hominem is not a matter of opinion.

Let's others know that if they dare disagree with the sabbatarians and say so in public, it is considered by the sabbatarians to be a direct attack on the sabbatarians.

They can dish it out and tell others they believe wrong . . . but they can't take it when some one tells them they are wrong!
rolleyes3.gif

There is a difference between disagreeing about the doctrine itself and saying stuff like this:

Those sabbatarians always remain loyal to the doctrines of their supreme leader, Ellen G White

They have to in order to remain in good standing at their church... which is no different to how things work at other types of churches. Any church one attends, you have to obey their doctrine or you get the left foot of fellowship!
laughing2.gif

If you can't see that, then there's a deeper problem than disagreement on doctrine.

Speaking of ad hominem, here's the latest:

Yeah, you cannot be seen accepting the teachings of the New Covenant.... it would obviously hurt your reputation among other sabbatarians View attachment 39677

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BarneyFife

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Nice dodge! Professional grade!
thumbsup2.gif

What exactly is it that I'm dodging? I've responded directly to virtually every claim you've made which is light-years beyond what you've done in return.

I'm happy to give direct answers to specific questions anytime.

I won't be tricked or rattled into saying something I don't even believe, namely, that any kind of commandment-keeping can secure salvation for a sinner. I know what I believe.

Perhaps you've made a mistake in projecting onto me that which you've come to believe about Sabbatarians, in general.

We're not all robots.

He worked on the sabbath, so we can to... because IN Christ the Saturday sabbath rest is obsolete due to a rest far better having replaced it.

He didn't do work for personal gain—only works of mercy and sustenance. Parroting and repackaging Sabbath-degrading junk doesn't make it true. People need physical, mental, and spiritual rejuvenation every Seventh Day. Science confirms what God has ordained from the beginning.

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Big Boy Johnson

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What exactly is it that I'm dodging?

The question.... after one gets born again, can they still be in right standing with the Lord and go to Heaven IF they do not observe Saturday sabbath.

There are some of your persuasion out there that claim one will burn in hell if they do not observe Saturday sabbath and they claim to be trained and knowledgeable in the ways of your persuasion
 

BarneyFife

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Ah, the rules are changing then!

Saturday sabbath under the Law of Moses... NO work was to be done at all. Zero. Nadda, zip.

Except for when it was.

Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? ( Matthew 12:5 )

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Big Boy Johnson

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OK, so sounds like you guys just move the goal posts whenever it's convenient and the Saturday sabbath you guys observe is not the same sabbath that was observed under the Law of Moses.
 

quietthinker

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Probably not the answer you were looking for, but if you believe scripture, there is no question that he broke the law on several occasions. Not only that-- he would openly challenge and defy the 'experts in the law' often correcting them and he would then break the law right in front of their faces to prove the point.

So a question for you would be-- do you accept and believe scripture? -Or perhaps only when it's convenient?
'Breaking a law' is relative to ones point of view. We are told Jesus always did his Fathers will; did he break the law?
Mens laws and how they interpret God's Laws are often in conflict.

The oft repeated, 'the bible says so' to justify an action/ point of view, is far removed from the reality of God when one has an agenda according to Man.
Religious folk who clamour for control have always pulled this card. The willingness to use scripture to malign knows no end; control must be achieved no matter what which includes lies and violence of every sort when it is 'needed'.
 

BarneyFife

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The question.... after one gets born again, can they still be in right standing with the Lord and go to Heaven IF they do not observe Saturday sabbath.

The answer.... Not any more so, more, or less, than if the question was about any of the other 9 commandments.

Jesus knew how to answer these stupid questions. I learned from the best.

"Render to Caesar..."

There are some of your persuasion out there that claim one will burn in hell if they do not observe Saturday sabbath and they claim to be trained and knowledgeable in the ways of your persuasion

"Persuasion," now, is it?

We're still not robots, Big Boy.

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Big Boy Johnson

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"Render to Caesar..."

You've switched to talk 'bout paying taxes now?

It tis tax season ya know.


"Persuasion," now, is it?

You were persuaded at some point to be a follower of Ellen G White, right?

Taking a vow to never give up the fight and to follow with all your might?

Even in the dead of night when it's hard to see the light?

Looks like we got us a sabbatarian rap going...

Do they have sabbatarian rappers? Is that a thing?

It might be a good way for you fellas to get some young people to tune in eh?
 

BarneyFife

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You've switched to talk 'bout paying taxes now?

It tis tax season ya know.




You were persuaded at some point to be a follower of Ellen G White, right?

Taking a vow to never give up the fight and to follow with all your might?

Even in the dead of night when it's hard to see the light?

Looks like we got us a sabbatarian rap going...

Do they have sabbatarian rappers? Is that a thing?

It might be a good way for you fellas to get some young people to tune in eh?

:no reply:

.
 

Keiw

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I don't mean this as a personal criticism, so I hope you don't take it that way-- I'm addressing only the point you are trying to make. I call that equivocating. Here's why...

Scripture clearly shows Jesus to be a law breaker, with respect to sabbath laws in particular. I've heard folks argue often, that-- well, he only broke man's law, and not God's law. Let's say that's true. He'd still be a law breaker. I'll leave it up to you to decide if that makes him a sinner, but here's the flip side.

I'll give a mild comparison. School zones. It's man's law, not God's law-- that says you must slow down for school zones. If you speed through a school zone and mother's and children have to scramble to get out of the crosswalks while you race through at 50 miles per hour because you're late for work.... You are a law breaker. If you do this every day-- you are a law breaker and a sinner. Aren't you also a law breaker and still a sinner if you do it only once? Of course. It doesn't matter a bit that it's only man's law. You are still a law breaker. You are still a sinner.

Draw your own conclusions, but adhering to scripture-- Jesus was a law breaker.
I didn't draw my own conclusions, i spoke fact. Look up the writings on that matter-Jesus only broke added things by the Israelite spiritual teachers that God did not put forth concerning the sabbath.
 
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Jack

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How do you read this verse then..
2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NLT2)
21 For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

He is the Lamb of God, a sin offering.
 

Hobie

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'Breaking a law' is relative to ones point of view. We are told Jesus always did his Fathers will; did he break the law?
Mens laws and how they interpret God's Laws are often in conflict.

The oft repeated, 'the bible says so' to justify an action/ point of view, is far removed from the reality of God when one has an agenda according to Man.
Religious folk who clamour for control have always pulled this card. The willingness to use scripture to malign knows no end; control must be achieved no matter what which includes lies and violence of every sort when it is 'needed'.
Well, its not a point of view, scripture is clear that Jesus was sinless or how could He pay for our sins if He had His own....

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus was without sin. He needed to be a spotless lamb with no sin, and he was a spotless lamb. In being accused of breaking the Law by the Pharisee, Jesus made this clear in His challenge basically asking them who can charge me of any sin?
Mark 3:1-5
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

And they're not able to bring any charge against him, because to love God and your fellowman and do good for your fellowman is in essence of the Law. And we see who really were the Law Breakers...

Mark 3:6
And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

And we see it in more context in Matthew 12...
Matthew 12:1-14
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
 
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quietthinker

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Well, its not a point of view, scripture is clear that Jesus was sinless or how could He pay for our sins if He had His own....

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:22
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Jesus was without sin. He needed to be a spotless lamb with no sin, and he was a spotless lamb. In being accused of breaking the Law by the Pharisee, Jesus made this clear in His challenge basically asking them who can charge me of any sin?
Mark 3:1-5
1And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.
3 And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth.
4 And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

And they're not able to bring any charge against him, because to love God and your fellowman and do good for your fellowman is in essence of the Law. And we see who really were the Law Breakers...

Mark 3:6
And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

And we see it in more context in Matthew 12...
Matthew 12:1-14
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Hobie, I am not saying Jesus broke the Law but it appears you think I am saying that.
 

St. SteVen

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But a closer look at the text in question reveals another possibility.

What John is recounting are the charges that the Jews believed against Christ—not what He had actually done.

For, if we are to believe that Jesus actually violated the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy, was He also then guilty of blasphemy by saying God was His Father, making Himself equal with God?

Did Christ admit to either of these charges?

No, He admitted only to the acts that precipitated the charges, outright in the case of Sabbath-breaking, and by silence and demonstration in the case of blasphemy.
Reply to post #10

These are interesting points.
Would not the charge of Sabbath-breaking also be pared with the charge of blasphemy?
Can Jesus be accused of one but not the other?
Let's review the text. See below.

Here's what I see here.
1) "not only was he breaking the Sabbath,"
2) "but he was even calling God his own Father," (making himself equal with God)

Blasphemy seems to only be inferred as a potential accusation of the Jewish leaders.

If we wish to pair these two together, should we view it this way?
Since Jesus "was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God",
was he also then "breaking the Sabbath"? (or better put, deconstructing it) ???
His rightful action as the Lord of the Sabbath. ???

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's an interesting quote that comes up at the end of the chapter.

John 5:45-47 NIV
“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father.
Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
47 But since you do not believe what he wrote,
how are you going to believe what I say?”

/
 
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