Was Jesus a law breaker?

[St. SteVen]

Sorry, I don't see how any of this is relevant to whether or not Jesus sinned. I'd like to, but I don't.

We should address whether the accusation of NOT keeping the Sabbath by Jesus (or anyone) is actually sin?
I agree that Jesus needs to be the sinless sacrifice. How do we balance that against the record of his actions?

This scripture below comes to mind.
Since, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.",
which one rules over the other? Does man rule over the Sabbath, or does Sabbath rule over man?
Does humankind serve the Sabbath, or does Sabbath serve humankind?
How could a decision to not let Sabbath rule over us be sin?

Mark 2:27-28 NIV
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

/

 

[St. SteVen]

We have many who accuse or claim that Jesus was a law breaker and use some of these verses..

Matthew 12:1
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

It seems that Jesus implicates himself with the beginning of his reply to the Pharisees.
He asks: “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?"
And then admits, "which was not lawful for them to do."

Matthew 12:3-4 NIV
He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?
4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—
which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests.

Mark 3:2
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

People say He was with the disciples on the sabbath when they plucked corn and also the healing on the sabbath, so was He a law breaker? Why or Why not.

Ever since Exodus chapter sixteen, the Manna collection,
work on the Sabbath is the most basic violation.
What does Jesus say about that?

John 5:16-18 NIV
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath,
the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them,
“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;
not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father,
making himself equal with God.

/

 

[BarneyFife]

We should address whether the accusation of NOT keeping the Sabbath by Jesus (or anyone) is actually sin?

Are we addressing whether the accusation itself is sin or whether not keeping the Sabbath is sin?

I agree that Jesus needs to be the sinless sacrifice. How do we balance that against the record of his actions?

Like this:

Mat 12:11-12 KJV 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

This scripture below comes to mind.
Since, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.",
which one rules over the other? Does man rule over the Sabbath, or does Sabbath rule over man?

Neither. Man keeps/guards the Sabbath; the Sabbath serves man; man serves the LORD of the Sabbath.

Does humankind serve the Sabbath, or does Sabbath serve humankind?

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

How could a decision to not let Sabbath rule over us be sin?

It couldn't be sin because allowing the Sabbath to rule over us would be worship of the created—idolatry.

It seems that Jesus implicates himself with the beginning of his reply to the Pharisees.
He asks: “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?"
And then admits, "which was not lawful for them to do."

What David and the priests in the Sanctuary and Jesus and His disciples and even His Father did and does on the Sabbath is not lawful pertaining to the letter of the law.

Joh 4:23 KJV But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


.

 

[BarneyFife]

Since Jesus "was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God",
was he also then "breaking the Sabbath"? (or better put, deconstructing it) ???
His rightful action as the Lord of the Sabbath. ???

It has long been my understanding that Christ never dismantles/deconstructs what is written in the Word. He only deconstructs what men add to or subtract from it. The scribes and lawyers had loaded down the Sabbath with so many hedging extra-biblical rules that it had become a curse to many of those who sought after God. This is why Christ said of them:

Mat 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

And Stephen:

Act 7:51-52
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:


.

 

[Karl Peters]

We have many who accuse or claim that Jesus was a law breaker and use some of these verses..

Matthew 12:1
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

Mark 3:2
And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

People say He was with the disciples on the sabbath when they plucked corn and also the healing on the sabbath, so was He a law breaker? Why or Why not.

When there is a King, all government rest on His shoulders. He makes the Laws, and gives the instructions, and what He says is Law!!

If a King tells you to go and eat, that is Law. If He had at some point to others, don't eat or eat in this way, then the Law spoken to you is what applies to you, but perhaps they are still under the Law that He spoke and had written to them!!

So there are those people under the written Law, which was given to them by the KING OF KINGS, whose name is called The Word of God, because He will speak to people if they are willing to listen to Him. Yet He gave them those instructions and had them written because they specifically said in their hearts and even from their mouths, "Let not God speak to us" So to those who will not listen to our omni-present LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS, a written Law was given! Yet they couldn't keep that Law so it meant death to them.

Where as a relationship via faith, and that means listening to Him, means salvation to us. As Jesus explain:

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

So there were and still are people who go about trying for salvation by trying to live by the Law written to those who say in their hearts, "Let not God speak to us" - and the 'Us" part is the really sad part because not only do they not want themselves listening to God but all those others like them, they do not want listening to God either. Perhaps, they say, let One man listen and we will listen, but they lie! Because there is already and always was One who does and says only what His Father tells Him so that His Father made Him the KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, but they are still unwilling to listen to that One, so they lie to themselves!

How said is it that some try and convince us to not even listen to the KING??

Do they not even understand that attitude is rebellion against the KING?

Anyway, they go back to trying to live by that written Law in stead of fulfilling that written Law through a relationship with Jesus Christ, and that by listen to Him via His Holy Spirit.

And you could write them books about their problem, which is still their saying in their hearts "Let not God speaks to us", but will they ever just figure out that it is simply. Just repent or your ways and let Jesus Christ into your life by listening to Him who has always been standing there hoping that you and Him will talk. He, the KING, loves them but they are not willing to accept Him!

Rev 3:19-22 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

And people, you have ears, spiritual ears, but you just don't use them so they hardly work. Seek the Lord and He will help you with that!

Mar 8:18 Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?

 

[St. SteVen]

Are we addressing whether the accusation itself is sin or whether not keeping the Sabbath is sin?

I hadn't considered the angle of whether the accusation itself was a sin.
Bearing false witness?

Like this:

Mat 12:11-12 KJV 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

I think this is how Jesus was deconstructing the law.

The "no work on the Sabbath" law was being violated on a regular basis
when something of GREATER importance needed to be attended to.
Like pulling an animal out of a pit. Lawful to do well.
The Sabbath "no work/only rest" requirement was put aside to rescue an animal.

The scripture preceding the one you quoted above says this.
Again, the Sabbath requirement was put aside to heal a man with a shriveled hand.

Matthew 12:9-10 NIV
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue,
10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there.
Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus,
they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”

--- then this happened ---

Matthew 12:13-14 NIV
Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.”
So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other.
14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

Neither. Man keeps/guards the Sabbath; the Sabbath serves man; man serves the LORD of the Sabbath.

That seems backward somehow. Wasn't the law the guardian? (past tense)
Why would humankind work to guard/preserve a servant of humankind?
Especially when Christ dismissed the guardian of the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

It seems that some idolize the law. ???

It couldn't be sin because allowing the Sabbath to rule over us would be worship of the created—idolatry.

Agree.

What David and the priests in the Sanctuary and Jesus and His disciples and even His Father did and does on the Sabbath is not lawful pertaining to the letter of the law.

Did you mean "unlawful"?

The implied spirit of the law is a completely unbiblical idea as I understand it. Borrowed from American politics.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

Joh 4:23 KJV But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Yes.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

It has long been my understanding that Christ never dismantles/deconstructs what is written in the Word.

I see a whole lot being dismantled starting with John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:13 NIV
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Until John? Then what? Something stopped. Something started.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

It has long been my understanding that Christ never dismantles/deconstructs what is written in the Word.

Another good example is Matthew chapter five. IMHO
The “You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." verses.
Six times Jesus treats the law as if it is hearsay. And then deconstructs it.

More to say about this. But I'm not trying to make enemies here.
Just wondering what the rebuttal would be.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

More to say about this. But I'm not trying to make enemies here.
Just wondering what the rebuttal would be.

To be clear, I don't have a problem with any Christian that observes a seventh-day Sabbath and
some OT dietary laws, or however they choose to express faith in their lives.

However, I do have a problem with Sabbatarians that tell me I am sinful in my choice not to.
I'm glad to see that is not happening here on this topic. Although I haven't read all the posts.

And I understand that is a lot for me to ask. Once a person has determined that the Sabbath is
God's holy day set apart since creation, what does that say about any other day?

/ cc: @BarneyFife @amadeus @Hobie

 

[amadeus]

Another good example is Matthew chapter five. IMHO
The “You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." verses.
Six times Jesus treats the law as if it is hearsay. And then deconstructs it.

More to say about this. But I'm not trying to make enemies here.
Just wondering what the rebuttal would be.

/

Ga 3:24	Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25	But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Jesus was never a breaker of God's Law. He was the Word of God which was certainly our Unchanging God's Real Law.

The written law given to Moses and other writers of the OT was a schoolmaster to prepare people for and to help them understand what was coming in their Messiah. It was not really the whole loaf. On the surface, it was at best an appetizer. Some individual prophets, teachers, and leaders likely went beyond the schoolmaster phase themselves as hidden in their words was a deeper understanding for each of us if, yes if, the Holy Spirit was leading us though it.

When we get into the NT starting with Jesus, he sometimes had to, as @St. SteVen put it, deconstruct to tear down an often simplistic, superficial and even erroneous vision [understanding] that people had built which made them so often blind to God's real Vision:

Consider what Solomon wrote here:

Pr 29:18

Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

What Law is it that really makes us happy? God's Law or God's Word, the Word of our unchanging God.

This vision is the face of God that Moses was not allowed to see here:

Ex 33:20

And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

This vision is the face which God also told David to seek here:

Ps 27:8

When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.

It was the face to which Paul was referring here:

1co 13:12

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And here we see John telling us when to expect the perfectly clear Vision of Him, of the Word of God:

1jo 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Jesus is the Word of God. Who sees his face clearly now?

Re 19:13

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God

What Law of God did Jesus break? Is Jesus not God's Word, which is the Real Law?
Are we still under the schoolmaster to raise such a question?

Consider again what faith is:

Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Have we moved beyond faith to a perfect vision?

Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;...

Mr 8:23	And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
Mr 8:24	And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
Mr 8:25	After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

 

[BarneyFife]

@St. SteVen,
Pal o' mine, it seems that I have a backlog of questions/challenges from you, and I'm kinda slow to respond, in general, so I guess I'll just have to address the oldest ones first and if I don't get to one that's of particular importance to you, you'll have to nudge me into action.

We probably ought to get one matter settled that isn't first on the chronological list:

I don't know that I've ever viewed someone as or accused someone of being sinful because they choose not to observe the 4th commandment literally, as it reads in Exodus 20. As to health laws this would go double perhaps. I leave conviction up to God, since it is unquestionably every bit as much His job as it is not mine.

People are sinful because they are by nature the children of wrath. Some holiness emphasizers will take great umbrage with this paradox of growth in grace, but however holy we ought to be, we, like Paul, most likely have not yet attained (Philippians 3:12).

Having said that, I can be quite aggressive in discussing Sabbath/Law issues, but virtually always only when challenged both aggressively and obnoxiously. This has not always worked out well for me, but there is a secret method to this madness.

I will say, since I'm among friend(s?) that the preparatory statement that precedes the warning against judgment/condemnation that reads something like: "I have no problem with people keeping the 7th-day Sabbath, but..." has always puzzled me greatly.

It is so, so strange to me. It might be looming large in my mind because I have, of late, been ceaselessly goaded and hounded with this by someone else on the forum who flouts it as a blessing that I need to get on with my apparently miserable life.

Look at it from the Sabbatarian's perspective (which, as hard as it must be for many to believe, I always try to do conversely).

It is like one motorist saying to another:

"I have no problem with people being careful to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, but I cannot stand being told that the traffic laws prohibit me from driving 55 in a 45."

To a Sabbatarian, there is absolutely no difference between the 4th commandment and the other 9 in terms of obligation as a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven. None. But I don't condemn an idolater as being impossible to save any more than I would a thief. I'm not sure why these things are so unclear to so many.

And if murder were being especially minimized as a sin in this phase of Earth's history, I would have far less to say about the 4th commandment. (Pro-life obsessionists: please understand that the prohibition of murder is not being made a non-commandment by mainstream Christianity.)

I don't believe we view the concept of Biblical law in the same way at all; I might as well be frank about that.

You boxes are touching one another when it comes to law, SS. You might even have stray wires roaming around. :cool:

Jesus exercised perfect freedom when using the word "law." So much so, that the word's technical meaning often seems to escape him, IMO.

I think this is well indicated by His response to the devil in the wilderness temptation account context of Matthew 4:4:

But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

So far from deconstructing the law as was done by by French philosophers to social order in the early '60s, Jesus was/is a great lover of His Father's commandments.

I was going to itemize the 6 "You have heard it said" statements of Matthew 5, but I really think it suffices to say that when Christ wasn't simply acknowledging the obsolete sustainability of civil laws under the ancient Hebrew theocracy (e.g., "eye for an eye"), He was simply magnifying the moral law of the Ten Commandments (adultery, murder) and the two great ones.

He could just as easily have made a "You have heard it said" statement about the 4th commandment in Matthew 5, but the Sabbath had been so weighed down with so much Pharisaical baggage that He simply chose to magnify it in considerably more detail elsewhere than time and space would allow in the Sermon On The Mount.

I might say more about this later, but I have to stop somewhere.

I hope this comes across more as matter-of-factly than hostile.


.

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen,
Pal o' mine, it seems that I have a backlog of questions/challenges from you, and I'm kinda slow to respond, in general, so I guess I'll just have to address the oldest ones first and if I don't get to one that's of particular importance to you, you'll have to nudge me into action.

No worries. Respond as you are able. No need to answer the barrage of questions I have unloaded on this topic. - LOL

I don't know that I've ever viewed someone as or accused someone of being sinful because they choose not to observe the 4th commandment literally, as it reads in Exodus 20. As to health laws this would go double perhaps. I leave conviction up to God, since it is unquestionably every bit as much His job as it is not mine.

I appreciate that about you.

I will say, since I'm among friend(s?) that the preparatory statement that precedes the warning against judgment/condemnation that reads something like: "I have no problem with people keeping the 7th-day Sabbath, but..." has always puzzled me greatly.

Interesting point. We view the law differently. I think that is what makes communication about it difficult.

Look at it from the Sabbatarian's perspective (which, as hard as it must be for many to believe, I always try to do conversely).

It is like one motorist saying to another:

"I have no problem with people being careful to come to a complete stop at a stop sign, but I cannot stand being told that the traffic laws prohibit me from driving 55 in a 45."

Ah. Good point.
I see it as an option under law.
We are allowed to make a right turn on red after a stop.
But a motorist may choose not to.
Although they may have to ignore the honking motorists lined up behind them. - LOL

But he answered and said, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God."

So far from deconstructing the law as was done by by French philosophers to social order in the early '60s, Jesus was/is a great lover of His Father's commandments.

It wouldn't occur to me that "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God" was a
reference to laws in the Books of the Law, the Books of the Prophets, which are FULL of words
that proceed from the mouth of God.

He could just as easily have made a "You have heard it said" statement about the 4th commandment in Matthew 5, but the Sabbath had been so weighed down with so much Pharisaical baggage that He simply chose to magnify it in considerably more detail elsewhere than time and space would allow in the Sermon On The Mount.

Very interesting.
What would that look like?
A "You have heard it said" statement about the 4th commandment in Matthew 5, but the Sabbath.

--- PARODY ---

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago,
"Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy."
But I tell you, don't leave your poor critters in the ditch, pull 'em out.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,
drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
We have work to do here people. Get off yer backside!

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I will say, since I'm among friend(s?) that the preparatory statement that precedes the warning against judgment/condemnation that reads something like: "I have no problem with people keeping the 7th-day Sabbath, but..." has always puzzled me greatly.

Here's another way to look at this, which makes sense to me, but probably not to a Sabbatarian.

I imagine myself at a traffic stop in my automobile. The officer approaches to speak with me.
He asks, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I respond in the negative, but suppose I was exceeding the speed limit.
But then I notice that this officer is not even from my state, or county. He pulls out his ticket book to write me a love note,
I say, "Hang on there, sir. I notice that you are not from my state or county. What authority do you have to write me a ticket?"
To which he responds, "Well, you got me there. Have a good day, you are free to go."

So it is in the state of grace.

/

 

[BarneyFife]

Here's another way to look at this, which makes sense to me, but probably not to a Sabbatarian.

I imagine myself at a traffic stop in my automobile. The officer approaches to speak with me.
He asks, "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I respond in the negative, but suppose I was exceeding the speed limit.
But then I notice that this officer is not even from my state, or county. He pulls out his ticket book to write me a love note,
I say, "Hang on there, sir. I notice that you are not from my state or county. What authority do you have to write me a ticket?"
To which he responds, "Well, you got me there. Have a good day, you are free to go."

So it is in the state of grace.

/

Well, you lost me but it's not hard to do, I'll grant you.


.

 

[BarneyFife]

It seems that some idolize the law. ???

Agree

The implied spirit of the law is a completely unbiblical idea as I understand it. Borrowed from American politics.
Please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks.

I'd rather suggest than correct.

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Romans 2:29
No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise does not come from men, but from God.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death


.

 

[Hobie]

We should address whether the accusation of NOT keeping the Sabbath by Jesus (or anyone) is actually sin?
I agree that Jesus needs to be the sinless sacrifice. How do we balance that against the record of his actions?

This scripture below comes to mind.
Since, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.",
which one rules over the other? Does man rule over the Sabbath, or does Sabbath rule over man?
Does humankind serve the Sabbath, or does Sabbath serve humankind?
How could a decision to not let Sabbath rule over us be sin?

Mark 2:27-28 NIV
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

/

The thing is Christ never broke it so its a non-issue, but God is very clear that it is important to 'Remember' which goes beyond literal rules, it starts in the mind and heart...

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[St. SteVen]

The thing is Christ never broke it so its a non-issue, but God is very clear that it is important to 'Remember' which goes beyond literal rules, it starts in the mind and heart...

That wasn't the message eye-witnesses were getting.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

/