Was Jesus a mere man?

[Bob Estey]

It means the "accepted" doctrine by churches. About 98% of Christians believe Jesus is God, which makes it the Orthodox, or accepted, doctrine. However, truth is determined by the scriptures, not by committee.

Well, truth would be determined by God.

 

[Rich R]

I've heard this teaching in many cults, but Jesus is fully God and the divine nature isn't common to all men. If it were, we wouldn't need to receive His Spirit and to be born again.
What you're believing and teaching is a new age blend of Eastern religions and Christianity. When people can't believe the truth, they try to make truth fit their belief. That's self delusion.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Absolutely, it is necessary to get born again to receive the gift of holy spirit (Acts 2). That is the divine nature we have. It is Christ in us (Col 1:27).

Anyway, the OP was just asking if Paul or Athenasius had to correct formula (for want of a better word) to get born again. Any input on that?

God bless.

 

[Rich R]

Well, truth would be determined by God.

Precisely! It is the truth determined by God and communicated to us by way of the scriptures.

I'm not too keen on accepting something written several hundred years after Paul, especially when it appears to contradict what Paul said.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Maybe I wasn't clear. Absolutely, it is necessary to get born again to receive the gift of holy spirit (Acts 2). That is the divine nature we have. It is Christ in us (Col 1:27).

Anyway, the OP was just asking if Paul or Athenasius had to correct formula (for want of a better word) to get born again. Any input on that?

God bless.

Sure, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the invisible immortal Spirit is God. We were created in His image, fell from grace through sin, and are renewed in the image of His Son through our sanctification. However, though He calls us brethren, we will never be God. We will be like Him, but not as Him. Lucifer was cast out for trying to be Him. Eve was decieved by Satan for desiring to be as Him.

There is One God who entered His creation through His Holy Spirit and inhabited flesh in the person of His Son.
Jesus is Lord. If you don't have this, you don't have the Witness. If you have His Witness, you know Him as God, not just as the Son of Man.

 

[Rich R]

Sure, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the invisible immortal Spirit is God. We were created in His image, fell from grace through sin, and are renewed in the image of His Son through our sanctification. However, though He calls us brethren, we will never be God. We will be like Him, but not as Him. Lucifer was cast out for trying to be Him. Eve was decieved by Satan for desiring to be as Him.

There is One God who entered His creation through His Holy Spirit and inhabited flesh in the person of His Son.
Jesus is Lord. If you don't have this, you don't have the Witness. If you have His Witness, you know Him as God, not just as the Son of Man.

I understand that to be Orthodox (accepted) church doctrine, but any opinion as to the OP? Did Paul or Athenasius tell us the right way to get born again?

To save you the trouble of going to the OP, Paul said in Romans 10:9-10 that if we make Jesus our Lord and believe God raised him from the dead, we would be born again. He said nothing about a trinity or even believing that Jesus was God. Athenasius said we must believe the trinity to be saved. Which one do you think had the real deal, Paul or Athenasius?

 

[Bob Estey]

Precisely! It is the truth determined by God and communicated to us by way of the scriptures.

I'm not too keen on accepting something written several hundred years after Paul, especially when it appears to contradict what Paul said.

Keep in mind that we are to be in constant prayer (1 Thessalonians 5:17). When we develop a relationship with the Lord, our education improves.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I understand that to be Orthodox (accepted) church doctrine, but any opinion as to the OP? Did Paul or Athenasius tell us the right way to get born again?

To save you the trouble of going to the OP, Paul said in Romans 10:9-10 that if we make Jesus our Lord and believe God raised him from the dead, we would be born again. He said nothing about a trinity or even believing that Jesus was God. Athenasius said we must believe the trinity to be saved. Which one do you think had the real deal, Paul or Athenasius?

I was catechized as a child but left the RCC immediately after my confirmation at the age of 13, because they did not conform to scripture and behaved in hypocritical ways. I attended secular schools as a child, some secular colleges and two different secular Universities studying primarily the sciences with a bare minimum of liberal arts courses. I studied basic military training and electronic technology in the military. I studied some eastern religions, philosophies, and the occult as a hobby, and Chinese internal Martial arts for over 4 years under a talented Sifu of WuShu and a Taiwanese master. During all those years I never attended a seminary, never read anything about church fathers, or reformers, just scripture.

I understood enough of scripture to see Jesus in Isaiah and the Psalms with just my carnal mind. But I wasn't convinced of the truth of scripture until the age of 39 and with the faithful answers of questions that I posed to a born again coworker that was delivered from the delusion of the Jehovah’s Witnesses by the gospel. I sat under no one pastor’s teaching for 3 years.

I read and reread an inexpensive King James Bible until it literally fell apart, with the Holy Spirit showing me Christ in nearly every book of the Old Testament, opening my mind to the spiritual reality hidden to the carnal mind. During that time I did listen to local Christian radio and some preacher/ teachers aligned with scripture and the teaching of His Spirit, while others taught from scripture but were in error.

My doctrine on the Holy Spirit started in the RCC, but I couldn't understand a reason for a Trinity until after studying High School physics, introductory physics in University, and reading Albert Einstein's popular book on his theories of General and Special relativity. Albert Einstein was born a Jew, lived a secular life with higher mathematics as a hobby, didn't believe in the God of scripture, yet arrived at belief in a god partially of his own invention but still acknowledged certain biblical truths.

Einstein is quoted as having said "when the answer is simple, God is speaking." He, like most modern Jewish believers, acknowledged that God is the source of all knowledge and that truth is profoundly simple.

If you understand the physical implications of special relativity theory on the space-time continuum, I can describe the reason that God has manifested in three persons, but no one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord except by the Holy Spirit. The trinity is taught in scripture, witnessed by men and angels, and supported by physical law in the very nature of the universe. Most people don't even take High School physics, much less read Einstein, but I've explained the manifestation of God in three persons more than once on this site from the perspective of the natural world in agreement with the word of God.

It's very simple, you are either for christ, pro christ, or against christ, anti-christ.
So, is Jesus fully God and fully man?
The answer to that question is all any of us need to know. The rest is just about understanding according to the person of His Spirit.

 

[Keiw]

Those who don't believe Jesus is God usually hear something like, "Are you saying Jesus was a mere man?"

First of all, there really is no such thing as a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.
​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

But who exactly is Jesus?

• In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
• In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
• In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
• In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
• In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
• In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
• In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
• In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
• In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
• In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
• In Chronicles he is the King's son.
• In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
• In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
• In Job he is the daysman.
• In Psalms he is the song.
• In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
• In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
• In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
• In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
• In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
• In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
• In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
• In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
• In Hosea he is the latter rain.
• In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
• In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
• In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
• In Jonah he is our salvation.
• In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
• In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
• In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
• In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
• In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
• In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
• In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
• In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
• In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
• In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
• In John he is Jehovah's Son.
• In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
• In Romans he is the believers' justification.
• In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
• In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
• In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
• In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
• In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
• In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
• In Timothy he is the faithful men.
• In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
• In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
• In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
• In James he is the royal law.
• In Peter he is the pastor.
• In John he is as we are.
• In Jude he is the beloved.
• In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Does that describe a mere man? I don't think so.

Jesus is the one sent by his Father to earth= The Messiah= Gods son--not God. Jesus said--The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD. John 17:1-6,26--verse 6= YHWH(Jehovah) 26= YHWH(Jehovah)-- hallowed be thy name= YHWH(Jehovah)--John 4:22-24= YHWH(Jehovah)

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes, yes, and yes! It's so simple if we take Jesus to be the son of God, period, end of story. No need to add God the Son. All that does is take the greatest story ever told and make it into an incomprehensible mess.

Hmmm...God always obeyed Himself. And, wow, He even believed He's raise Himself from the dead. BORING. YAWN.

Oh, but for a man, tempted just like all of us, compassed about with the same infirmities, to do that is beyond any words I can come up with. And to think that same man did it so a loser like me could enjoy eternal life in paradise is also beyond any words I can think up.

The only way I can describe how I saw the scriptures after learning the truth about who Jesus is, is that they went from a grainy black and white to a most fantastic technicolor. I only wish all Christians could see it.

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"


Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,

and the heavens are the work of your hands.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the GNT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the GNT but always to Jesus.


Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."


We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

hope this helps !!!

 

[PinSeeker]

He was dead, but God raised him from among the dead. He is alive and well, sitting on the right hand of God (Heb 10:12), and in me (Col 1:27). He has a new improved body though. It's no longer subject to death. He did some pretty neat things in his new body before his ascension. Just the fact that it was taken up into the clouds is pretty neat. We can look forward to the getting the same kind of body when he comes back (1 Cor 15:44, Phil 3:21). I'd be just fine with me if he comes back tomorrow, but he'll come when he comes. As I think about it, tons of verses are coming to my mind that say Jesus is alive forevermore. I think the scriptures are pretty clear on that.

Yes, I'm 100% with you on all this. "Pretty neat"... that's one way to put it, I suppose...

Sure I can speak with Jesus. Why not?

Well, two things. First, to really know someone ~ anyone ~ depends not on you, but on that person. And the second thing follows ~ if one denies that Jesus is God and thus merely a man, he or she does not really know Jesus. And if that is the case for any one person, I am not sure he or she can really speak with Jesus. I mean, there will be many at the Judgment who think they knew and served Jesus but will receive from Him only rebuke and an order to depart from Him because He never knew them, and thus will enter into eternal judgment/punishment (Matthew 7:21-23; 25:41-46; John 5:28-29; Revelation 20:11-15) That's a terrifying prospect, but certainly worth thinking about.

I know you were so kind as to write much more. You raised a lot of good points. I'll try to get to the rest later. Hmmm...I may have said that to you before. Forgive me, but time goes by and I have a lot going on. I shouldn't be here as much as I am, but I so enjoy the discussions with other Christians. I trust you understand.

I understand completely, especially the part regarding being here more than you ought to be; I have thought heavily the same of myself, for sure.

God bless

The same to you, Rich, and thanks so much for the kind words! It is has been very nice talking to you, and I'm sure will continue to be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Rich R]

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

Well, I don't really see any of those verses saying that he is God, but if they do say he is God we have many problems.

Jesus has the same God and Father as we do.

John 20:17,

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
​

Most of Paul's epistles begin with a reference to the God of Jesus, usually within the first 3 or 4 verses. If God has a God, wouldn't that imply God's God is greater than God. Maybe we should find out who He is and worship that God.

God is good, whereas Jesus is not good.

Mark 10:18,

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God.
​

God knew things Jesus did not know.

Mark 13:32,

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
​

There are no less than 6 verses that explicitly call Jesus a man. There are none that explicitly call him God.

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
​

God is NOT a man.

Hos 11:9,

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.​

Num 23:19,

God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?​

Jesus was tempted just like you and I. Do you feel you are 100% God when tempted? I sure don't.

Matt 4:1,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.​

Heb 2:18,

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.​

Heb 4:15,

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
​

Jesus had a distinctly different will than God. Is God confused about what He wants? That'd be weird.

Luke 22:42,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.​

John 5:30,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

John 6:38,

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
​

Jesus grew in stature and wisdom. God grew in wisdom? That just doesn't sound right to me.

Luke 2:52,

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
​

Who is the head of God?

1 Cor 11:3,

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
​

How many doctrines does God have? If Jesus is God, He has at least two doctrines. Is God confused about what to believe? Heaven forbid!

John 7:16,

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
​

God gave Jesus power. Which God is it that gave God His power?

Matt 28:18,

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
​

God made Jesus both Lord and Christ. One part of God making another part something?

Acts 2:36,

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
​

Jesus was made lower than the angels. God is lower than angels?

Heb 2:9,

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
​

I could give you many more verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God.

Somehow all the verse you quoted have to fit with the ones I quoted or vica versa. Like I said, none of the verses you quoted explicitly say Jesus is God. They are all inferences at best. If someone who had never heard of the trinity studied the Bible it is most unlikely they would conclude Jesus is God from them. It's a preconceived idea introduced into the scriptures that blatantly contradicts the many clear verses I quoted.

I know the stock answer is that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% man, and that the God part knew what the man part didn't know, etc. It is a total mental disconnect for someone to be 100% God and 100% man. God did not wire our brains to think that way. He gave us sane minds that can reason (Is 1:18). There is nowhere in the scriptures that speaks of such a hideous creation. To find god-men one must resort to ancient Pagan writings, something all Christians ought to abhor with every ounce of their being.

 

[Rich R]

if one denies that Jesus is God and thus merely a man, he or she does not really know Jesus.

Chapter and verse, please? I mean from the scriptures, not the Catechism.

For the record, I think you are a wonderful son of God. I'm sure He is well please with you.

God bless you richly my brother.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm going to interject into an exchange or two that you've had with other posters here:

If Jesus were God, that would mean God is a mediator between God and man. That would mean God is not a mediator at all.

The fact that Jesus us both of God the Father (the Son of God) and of man (born of a woman, the Son of Man ~ as He Himself calls Himself many times qualifies Him (beyond all those who are merely of man) to be mediator between God and man, and thus to reconcile man to God.

I didn't deny the divinity of Christ. It's the very same divinity we all share. I'm thinking having a divine nature does not make one God.”

Well, yes, you did deny the divinity of Christ, and a big part of that, at least, is exactly what you say here, that it is the very same divinity we all share, because we don't share it in any since, but only that we are partakers of it ~ we consume it, indulge in it, even join in it, but we do not actually have it in its fullness, as Jesus does. And this is what Paul is saying in Colossians 1, differentiating between Him and us by saying he is preeminent over us, that He is the image of God, whereas we are all created in His image.

[QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1263529, member: 17876]Those who believe Jesus is the Son of God and not God the Son...[/QUOTE]
...contradict themselves without realizing it. Or are merely deceived. Or both. See above.

[QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1263529, member: 17876]For a man, tempted just like you and shares the same infirmities, to do what Jesus did for a bunch of losers (all of us) hardly qualifies as being a mere anything.[/QUOTE]
Well, right, so why relegate Him (as if that could be done, anyway) to that? There is no justification for it.

[QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1263529, member: 17876]God obeyed Himself all the time and believed he'd raise Himself from the dead is not that big of a deal. Was there any chance He could have disobeyed Himself or decided He just couldn't believe He'd raise Himself from the dead? Not really. But for a man to do that is truly amazing. What love![/QUOTE]
It's not merely about physically dying and being raised from the dead, amazing as that is. It's taking on all sin and thus undergoing the judgment of and separation from the Father ~ Whom Jesus had had perfect fellowship and glory with from all eternity ~ that's really the issue. What love indeed. He gave that up (humbled Himself and even emptied Himself of it, and then actually experienced it, all for our sake. Yes, truly amazing love indeed!

[QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1263529, member: 17876]Joshua means "God Saved." Surely Joshua, the son of Num, is not God also.[/QUOTE]
Well, it means "God is deliverance," "God is Salvation." Yes, Jesus means very much the same. But the man Joshua was a type, or a shadow, of the true Deliverer (Jesus) to come. The Old Testament is filled from beginning to end with types and shadows of Jesus, and these types and shadows are many times people, and many times inanimate objects, but always foreshadowing of the true Way of salvation to come. And concerning this deliverance and Who is responsible for it, both the Father and the Son are referred to as the Deliverer throughout the Bible.

[QUOTE="Rich R, post: 1263529, member: 17876]I wonder why Joseph and Mary didn't get the message to name the baby Emmanuel. They chose Jesus instead.[/QUOTE]
Actually starts with an 'I'... Immanuel... Well, the angel Gabriel told Mary, in Luke 1, to name the baby Jesus, and she... followed orders. She knew what the name Jesus meant, and she knew this child would be her Deliverer, subsequently acknowledging as much, saying, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."

Incidentally, Jehovah's Witnesses are wont to differentiate between the Father and the Son with the contrived "ho theos" versus "theos" dichotomy (God, versus "a god"; in John 1:1), but it is merely contrived; both the Father and the Son are referred to as "ho theos" in many places in Scripture, Luke 1 being one of them in reference to Christ.​

At any rate, likewise (referring to what Gabriel told Mary), an angel of the Lord came to Joseph in a dream and told him the same thing (and even why; He will save His people from their sins ~ He would be their Deliverer ~ in Matthew 1.

Again, grace and peace to you, Rich!

 

[PinSeeker]

Chapter and verse, please? I mean from the scriptures, not the Catechism.

Well, I think we can consider what Jesus says to Peter in Matthew 16 when Peter confesses Jesus to be "Christ, the Son of the living God" as an incontrovertible indicator ~ "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 16:13-17). Think about it (as if you are not; sorry, I know you are)... God made Himself known... revealed Himself, as Jesus says, to Peter, in the Person of Jesus to Peter, and Peter is confessing his knowledge of the Son, specifically, to Jesus.

And in John 14, we see it in what could be a negative light regarding Philip, who says, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” And how does Jesus reply? He says, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves" (John 14:8-11).

For the record, I think you are a wonderful son of God. I'm sure He is well please with you. God bless you richly my brother.

The very same to you, Rich. Thank you so much for that. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

Yes, yes, and yes! It's so simple if we take Jesus to be the son of God, period, end of story. No need to add God the Son. All that does is take the greatest story ever told and make it into an incomprehensible mess.

Indeed!!! As the term God the Son does not exist in scripture!! So why add it like you want too!!!

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus’. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God. This conclusion will lead you right into the Doctrine of the Trinity. This is the formula they adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD when they said:

"The Son is of the same substance as the Father."

It was at this council that Jesus was first made God. The Holy Spirit interestingly enough was not included in the formula. It was included fifty-six years later at another council. Let’s see what this title really means:

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel’s representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman’s contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son’s solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God"(Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God’s anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man

applies to Mark’s gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God." Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man. The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let’s take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.

Now to your God the Son quote.... WAIT... I can't find it in scripture.... seems like just another traditions of men made up quote that does not exist!!!

Try harder, but this time use scripture...
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

to your God the Son quote.... WAIT... I can't find it in scripture...

That the Son is God is all throughout. Therefore...

 

[Pierac]

That the Son is God is all throughout. Therefore...

Great... I already showed you that scripture... but what is for you to post that scripture that says... God the son!

But you can't!

You need to seek why! Why can you not find what you are taught and believe ... Why is what your taught... is not in scripture! Because it is the traditions of men... Not of God!!

Jesus has A GOD!!!

 

[Pierac]

That the Son is God is all throughout. Therefore...

Glad we agree! Adam is the son of God too...

Luk 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

According to Luke Adam is now the 4th member of Godhead with your view of scripture!!

Your traditions of men trap you! Stop following what your told to believe!
Paul

 

[PinSeeker]

Great... but what is for you to post that scripture that says... God the son!

Yet again, that the Son is God is all throughout. What is for you is to believe in Him.

Jesus has A GOD!!!

Well, had, during His time on earth. In His having set aside His position in the triune Jehovah for a time ~ emptied Himself ~ and taken on flesh, He had a God; He modeled what creation once was, and for those whom God has chosen for Himself, will be again. Yes. Absolutely. And through His work on the cross, He reconciled sinful man to God. Yes. And in so doing, He fulfilled the covenant He made with Abraham... actually, the covenant He made with Himself on behalf of Abraham (who was at that time Abram, of course). He could not have done this if He were not God made man.

Actions speak infinitely louder than words.

No need for shouting. Or colors.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Glad we agree!

But... we don't, unfortunately.

Adam is the son of God too...

Right, the first, failed son, but thank God for the Second, Who succeeded where Adam failed.

According to Luke Adam is now the 4th member of Godhead with your view of scripture!!

Absolutely not. See above.

Stop following what your told to believe!

Well, right back atcha, my friend. I say the same to you.

Grace and peace to you.