Was Jesus a mere man?

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PinSeeker

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I'm not JW.
Good. That would explain why you're not so... difficult... :)... at least.

I think they believed Jesus existed from eternity.
Well, if your "they" is referring to Jehovah's Witnesses, no, the don't believe Jesus existed from eternity, unfortunately.

I believe that he had a beginning, just like all of us. There are several verses that say he had a beginning.
He was born of a woman, and that was the beginning of His life here on earth, for sure. But we see clearly from Genesis 1 and John 1 that He was not part of creation, that all things that were created were created through Him.

If being anointed makes one God, then all the high priest must also be included in the Godhead.
Not at all. Jesus is the only high priest after the order of Melchizedek. To explain:

The author of Hebrews, in speaking of Christ, quotes Psalm 110:4 in Hebrews 7:17. Genesis provides background regarding the identity of Melchizedek, and Psalm 110 connects Melchizedek to the Messiah, and Hebrews chapters 5, 6, and 7 describe the supremacy of Jesus as the Great High Priest, using Melchizedek’s role as an illustration of Jesus’ priesthood and kingship. The Bible utilizes the phrase the order of to point to a lineage. An Aaronic priest would have been a priest according to “the order of” Aaron (Hebrews 7:11). These priests would have come from the lineage of Aaron, sharing a similar function and nature. Likewise, Psalm 110:4 says that the Messiah will be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.” Genesis 14 describes Melchizedek as the king of Salem (later Jerusalem, of course) and a priest of God Most High. Abram recognized Melchizedek’s priesthood through his tithing of the possessions he had taken in battle (Genesis 14:16). Interestingly, this incident took place before the institution of the Aaronic line (part of the Levitical priesthood), which was to mediate between God and man under the Mosaic Law. Melchizedek was not a priest of Israel, as that nation did not exist. The Levites would not become a priestly tribe for centuries. Psalm 110 describes the messianic nature of Jesus’ future rule, with an emphasis on Jesus’ eternality. It is in the context of Jesus’ kingship (110:2) that David writes about the Messiah’s being “a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek” (Psalm 110:4). Priests according to the order of Aaron were not kings but priests alone. However, as the author of Hebrews says, Melchizedek was both a priest and a king (Hebrews 7:1). In the same way, Jesus holds the dual role of king and priest. The eternal nature of the order of Melchizedek is presented in Hebrews 7:3: “Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.” In other words, Melchizedek appears in history with no record of a genealogy or ancestral line, no record of his birth, and no record of his death. The point is, Melchizedek appears to transcend earthly existence; this makes him a type of Christ, who truly does transcend earthly existence as the eternal King-Priest who has no predecessor and no successor in His high office. One implication of Jesus’ priesthood according to the order of Melchizedek is that the Mosaic Law was insufficient to save:

“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also” (Hebrews 7:11–12).​

We needed a better priesthood—an eternal priesthood—to save us from our sins for eternity. We needed Jesus, “one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life” (Hebrews 7:16). A priest is a mediator between God and man. Within the Old Testament, the Aaronic or Levitical priests would make sacrifices on behalf of the nation of Israel (Leviticus 16:1–28). Those sacrifices had to be repeated over and over. Eventually the priest would die, and his work as mediator would cease. Jesus, our High Priest “in the order of Melchizedek,” is not only our mediator but also our sacrifice (1 John 2:1–2). Because of His resurrection, death does not interrupt His work; Jesus remains our eternal High Priest.

Sorry for the length of that, but it's worth it, and you're worth it. :)

Jesus always did the Father's will because he decided to do that. Jesus could have said no to God at any time in his life.
No, as a man (during His life on earth), He wanted the Father's will to be different than it was. But His intention was always to do the Father's will. To what you say regarding Jesus's mere ability to say no to the Father, yes, Jesus could have said anything, and saying no to the Father is one of those things, of course, but he could not have said no to the Father in the sense that His nature is the exact same as the Father (this is oneness in essence, as opposed to oneness of being). So, again, being 100% God (fully possessing God's nature) and 100% man (fully possessing man's nature), He was wholly inclined against sin (as God), but also wholly inclined toward sin (as man). God is, of course, much more powerful than man, so His God nature... won. :) Every time. :)

I don't think God could say no to Himself.
I know you don't mean to do it, but in this little sentence, you make my point for me.

I've said multiple times that a man doing God's will 100% is truly the story of the ages, as opposed to the boring, ho hum story of God always doing His own will.
No offense to you intended, my friend, but that's a terribly superficial way of thinking about this whole thing. Jesus was 100% of the Father and 100% of man. So, there was this spiritual battle of epic proportions going on in Him all the days of His life. However, because He is "the exact imprint of God's nature," this is the very reason He was able to resist perfectly the same temptations that we all face, and thereby remain sinless, without sin. It's anything but "ho hum" or "boring," but just absolutely stupendous beyond measure.

Being sent means the one sent is representing the one who sent him.
Jesus proceeds from the Father, as does the Spirit. This is on a lesser level of course, but should be instructive: You and I both, when we speak (or type, as on this forum)... our word proceeds from us, we send our word. Does our word merely represent us? No, people see and hear ~ and actually feel, in a figurative sense ~ who we are. So in a very real sense, by sending out our word, we are not merely having something represent us, it is actually who we are; we are making ourselves known.

Two people absolutely preclude the idea they are one.
Physically speaking, but not spiritually. My wife and I are one flesh (spiritually; God has joined us together), but two people (physically speaking). Likewise all we believers are one in Christ, though physically a multitude that no man can number.

Words have meaning.
Absolutely they do.

Grace and peace to you.
 

PinSeeker

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You also object to the NWT “throwing in” reflection. If you do some research you will find other translations which selected “reflection.”
Very well aware of that. They are just as wrong as the NWT.

This is very logical because Jesus is the radiance not of his own glory but as you correctly stated “God’s glory.” Thus his radiance is a reflection.
LOL! Surely you know John 17:5, where Jesus prays, with absolute confidence, for the Father to glorify Him with the glory that He had with the Father even before creation. No, Jesus was and is the embodiment of the glory of God.

You are the one who conflated representation and representative in your response to Rich.
You're welcome to your opinion.

If you disapprove of offering multiple possibilities of word selection when translating...
I don't disapprove of that in and of itself, no. Sometimes, even often, it's very helpful. But wrong is wrong.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Pierac

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Uh, hold on. My Watchtower? The Watchtower was a heretical organization that attempted to re-engineer God's Word to suit their beliefs in the early nineteenth century? "My" Watchtower? I think not. Are you not a Jehovah's Witness? Maybe not, but denying that Jesus is God made flesh puts you in their terribly mistaken company, at least on that front.


Yes, there are a few other posters on here who would certainly meet that criteria, right along with you. So, "good" (in scare quotes) company... :)


So, all this is actually very good, stuff that I'm very well aware of. So good on you... But an unnecessary detour designed, I guess, only to puff yourself up. So be it. Did Jesus also write in colorful text? Like you? :)

I will speak to this though:

When I said Jesus emptied Himself, I did not mean ~ nor does Paul mean, in Philippians 2 ~ that Jesus ceased to be of God or lacking in His deity one iota. If you understood me to mean that, then you are mistaken. In no way would I ever even insinuate such a thing. No, He "made Himself nothing" is actually a better way to put what Paul says in Philippians 2:7, and you're right ~ metaphorically emptying Himself. So I'm absolutely opposed to the Kinotic Doctrine, Peirac. Yes, Jesus absolutely was fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. So your whole tirade seems to be quite misdirected.

Grace and peace to you.

So exactly what did you mean??? You fully embraced the Kinotic docterine... Yet now claim it was a mistake... because I educated you on what it was actually saying... In the future... Don't follow the teaching of Men... (Ie. the Kinotic docterine) then claim to be a independent scholar!!! You can do better!!

Paul