Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

TonyChanYT

Well-Known Member
Sep 13, 2023
1,731
708
113
63
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I don't think so. Let's check the original wording. Exodus 21:
29 But if the ox has been accustomed to gore in the past, and its owner has been warned but has not kept it in, and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom [H3724] is imposed on him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is imposed on him.
The owner paid the victim's relative ransom money to redeem his life.
Strong's Hebrew: 3724. כֹּ֫פֶר (kopher) — 17 Occurrences
The word has two meanings, Brown-Driver-Briggs:
I. the price of a life, ransom
II. pitch
God commanded Noah in Genesis 6:
14 Make yourself an ark of gopher wood. Make rooms in the ark, and cover [H3722] it inside and out with pitch [H3724 ransom money].
Strong's Hebrew: 3722. כָּפַר (kaphar) — 104 Occurrences
The noun H3724-kopher comes from the verb H3722-kaphar.
Brown-Driver-Briggs:
  1. cover over, pacify, propitiate; ... Genesis 32:21 let me cover his face by the present (so that he does not see the offence, i.e. pacify, him
kopher could mean the material that makes a covering. This was the meaning applied to Jesus' sacrifice.
Mark 10:
45 For the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve and to give his life a ransom [covering] for many.
The only other time G3883 appears is in 1 Timothy 2:
5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom [covering] for all.
Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?
I don't think so. I do not interpret H3724 or G3883 that way. Jesus was a ransom cover for us. The ransom blood continues to cover us. I do not see the ransom as a material transfer to Satan.
See also Jesus gave himself as a G3083-ransom for many people and G487-ransom for all people.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,775
2,431
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think so. Let's check the original wording. Exodus 21:

The owner paid the victim's relative ransom money to redeem his life.
Strong's Hebrew: 3724. כֹּ֫פֶר (kopher) — 17 Occurrences
The word has two meanings, Brown-Driver-Briggs:
I. the price of a life, ransom
II. pitch
God commanded Noah in Genesis 6:

Strong's Hebrew: 3722. כָּפַר (kaphar) — 104 Occurrences
The noun H3724-kopher comes from the verb H3722-kaphar.
Brown-Driver-Briggs:
  1. cover over, pacify, propitiate; ... Genesis 32:21 let me cover his face by the present (so that he does not see the offence, i.e. pacify, him
kopher could mean the material that makes a covering. This was the meaning applied to Jesus' sacrifice.
Mark 10:

The only other time G3883 appears is in 1 Timothy 2:

Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?
I don't think so. I do not interpret H3724 or G3883 that way. Jesus was a ransom cover for us. The ransom blood continues to cover us. I do not see the ransom as a material transfer to Satan.
See also Jesus gave himself as a G3083-ransom for many people and G487-ransom for all people.
I'd have to agree. It does seem that God owes something to Himself to mitigate the results of Satan's fall. Undoing injustice is a difficult matter, because one cannot use injustice to mitigate injustice.

God knows what needs to be done, and how long He wants to give Satan before he is fully judged. It really depends on what God had invested in him as a good angel originally. To extract a cancer is a precise surgical process.

God doesn't take away from angels nor from men the right to live forever and perhaps to have some useful purpose, though what work is done in Outer Darkness is beyond me? So disrupting malicious works without upsetting God's original purpose involving creatures who have become malicious may be a delicate matter. I know it is with our own criminal justice system.

But no, I don't think God owes anybody anything, and certainly not Satan. The only thing He owes is in connection with His responsibility to Himself and to His Word. He safeguards His integrity because His very name is Faithful. He will complete His plan, despite rebellion, using His consistent methodology as always.
 

Gottservant

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2022
1,839
530
113
45
Greensborough
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I started to be really angry, about this topic; but then I read what you wrote (that you don't think it makes sense) and I was able to calm down a little bit.

What I can't understand is why you would provoke the opposite intention, to what you want to write?
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?​

Why would Almighty God capitulate to terrorists? It just encourages them.

Just send those 12 legions of Heaven's Angels Jesus talked about in Matthew 26:53 to rescue the hostages, trash Hell and leave it a smoking ruin (wait - it already is), and have Satan publicly strung up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT

Bob Estey

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2021
4,819
2,563
113
71
Sparks, Nevada
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think so. Let's check the original wording. Exodus 21:

The owner paid the victim's relative ransom money to redeem his life.
Strong's Hebrew: 3724. כֹּ֫פֶר (kopher) — 17 Occurrences
The word has two meanings, Brown-Driver-Briggs:
I. the price of a life, ransom
II. pitch
God commanded Noah in Genesis 6:

Strong's Hebrew: 3722. כָּפַר (kaphar) — 104 Occurrences
The noun H3724-kopher comes from the verb H3722-kaphar.
Brown-Driver-Briggs:
  1. cover over, pacify, propitiate; ... Genesis 32:21 let me cover his face by the present (so that he does not see the offence, i.e. pacify, him
kopher could mean the material that makes a covering. This was the meaning applied to Jesus' sacrifice.
Mark 10:

The only other time G3883 appears is in 1 Timothy 2:

Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?
I don't think so. I do not interpret H3724 or G3883 that way. Jesus was a ransom cover for us. The ransom blood continues to cover us. I do not see the ransom as a material transfer to Satan.
See also Jesus gave himself as a G3083-ransom for many people and G487-ransom for all people.
That isn't how I look at it. My understanding is that when Satan had Jesus, a sinless man, murdered, Satan lost his credibility.
 

Spyder

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
373
363
63
Holt
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the Mideastern concept of a covenant, it usually included an animal sacrifice. Often the animal was dismembered and both parties viewed it as a statement about the penalty to be paid if either side violated the agreements of to covenant. The violation of the New Covenant is a matter of life and death.

Heb 9:11–22 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Yeshua was given to the people as the New Covenant. His sacrifice established the covenant in effect. He was not a payment to Satan at all.
 

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
1,177
538
113
69
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hugely complex topic!

Several theories have been advanced to explain what happened on Calvary, all of them using the language of “payment” in describing the sacrifice. The “ransom” theory, see Matt. 20:28/Mark 10:45, suggests that by sinning mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ gave himself as a ransom to redeem mankind from Satan’s dominion, resulting in what Rom. 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters. Origen, Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa all championed this theory. (Augustine added some conjecture on why Satan would ever make that deal – one of the starker examples of his often questionable logic.) In contrast, the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory, initially developed by Anselm and refined by Calvin, is far more prevalent today. It holds that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice. (Aulén’s Christus Victor argues that the early Church Fathers did not hold to the ransom theory as a payment to Satan, but as a ransom from the bondage of sin in general.)

If we are to go with the ransom theory and need to decide to whom the ransom was paid, I suppose we should begin by rounding up OT antecedents. The usual suspect is Is. 53. But 4 Macc. 6:28-29 and 2 Macc. 7:37-38 must also be considered, suggesting that God’s wrath against Israel may be assuaged by the martyrs’ death as representatives of Israel.

One modification is to think of Christ as our champion in a cosmic battle against the Forces of Evil, our representative (the way David was Israel’s representative when he fought Goliath) -- but unlike with David vs. Goliath, Christ’s victory consisted not in surviving the battle and slewing the enemy, but in dying in battle and robbing the enemy of its victory. Once Champion Christ died, we don’t have to; the Evil One has no choice but to accept Christ’s death as the final outcome, as the end game (just as the Philistines took Goliath’s death as the end game) – and retreat. Therein lies both the “substitution” and the “atonement.” Meanwhile, forgiveness doesn’t enter into it per se. Atonement isn’t forgiveness, but a declaration of vicarious victory in the cosmic battle.

Paul’s letters present Christ’s death as representative rather than substitutional (precisely what we would expect from a rabbi steeped in the sacrificial tradition of Israel). 2 Cor. 5:14’s “one has died for all, therefore all have died” (as opposed to “therefore all did not need to die”) suggests this view. Rom. 8:3’s “sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us (as opposed to “might be fulfilled for us”) who walk not by the flesh but by the spirit” suggests it. Gal. 2:20’s “I am crucified with Christ” (as opposed to “Christ is crucified in my stead”) suggests it.

I have no doubt that when Paul wrote “For I delivered to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3), he was relating the teachings of Christ then in currency. Similar teachings were eventually recorded in Matt. 20:28 and Mark 10:45: “The Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” – but the gospels’ use of the preposition ἀντὶ (translated as “for”) has the connotation “instead of.” By contrast, 1 Cor. 15:3 uses ὑπὲρ (also translated as “for”) – which has the connotation “on behalf of.” Even 1 Tim. 2:6, the only other instance of a “ransom” analogy anywhere in Paul’s letters, uses ὑπὲρ. Never once does Paul use ἀντὶ.

The subtle difference between substitutional atonement (“Christ took my place, so I didn’t have to die”) and representational atonement (“Christ died, and I died with him”) does not get us all the way home. But it’s a start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lambano

Spyder

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
373
363
63
Holt
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is apparent to me that the ECF did not comprehend scriptures in the way that the people of Israel did. These men attempted to create an understanding that made sense to them. Translators of scripture have tried to do that ever since.

It is true that Christ died for our sins, but only in the sense that His shed blood put the New Covenant into effect. It is His Father Yahweh that gave us His Son as the New Covenant. His death was to realize the covenant that Yahweh promised and to subsequently place Himself with His Father as our pathway to eternal life.

Consider these:

Is 42:6–96 “I am Yahweh; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness. I am Yahweh; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Is 49:8–9 Thus says Yahweh; “In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
saying to the prisoners, ‘Come out,’ to those who are in darkness, ‘Appear.’


Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman born under the law. (Translators insert a comma that makes it appear that Yeshua was born under the law. When that comma is removed, we can see that Yeshua's mother was, but not Yeshua Himself. He IS the personification of the New Covenant spoken of in Isaiah. The New Covenant was given to the Jews in Yeshua. He was the sacrifice that established it.

Jn 3:34–35 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

Yeshua had His Father's spirit without measure - and was able to represent His Father to the world.
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,393
9,188
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The subtle difference between substitutional atonement (“Christ took my place, so I didn’t have to die”) and representational atonement (“Christ died, and I died with him”) does not get us all the way home. But it’s a start.
I especially like this part - Christ identified with us; we identify with Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT

JBO

Well-Known Member
Oct 20, 2023
1,289
273
83
85
Prescott, AZ
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't think so. Let's check the original wording. Exodus 21:

The owner paid the victim's relative ransom money to redeem his life.
Strong's Hebrew: 3724. כֹּ֫פֶר (kopher) — 17 Occurrences
The word has two meanings, Brown-Driver-Briggs:
I. the price of a life, ransom
II. pitch
God commanded Noah in Genesis 6:

Strong's Hebrew: 3722. כָּפַר (kaphar) — 104 Occurrences
The noun H3724-kopher comes from the verb H3722-kaphar.
Brown-Driver-Briggs:
  1. cover over, pacify, propitiate; ... Genesis 32:21 let me cover his face by the present (so that he does not see the offence, i.e. pacify, him
kopher could mean the material that makes a covering. This was the meaning applied to Jesus' sacrifice.
Mark 10:

The only other time G3883 appears is in 1 Timothy 2:

Was Jesus' sacrifice a ransom money paid to Satan?
I don't think so. I do not interpret H3724 or G3883 that way. Jesus was a ransom cover for us. The ransom blood continues to cover us. I do not see the ransom as a material transfer to Satan.
See also Jesus gave himself as a G3083-ransom for many people and G487-ransom for all people.
It was a ransom paid to God. The standing threat is eternal condemnation for sin. The ransom Jesus paid was our release from that standing threat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TonyChanYT