Was Jesus taste of death fair to the eternally damned?

[brrrilliantsteve]

Hebrews 2:9King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I was reading through Hebrews in preparation for my weekly Bible study. After praying for the Holy spirit to guide me into all truth I found new insights were occurring to me. I would like your thoughts on this realization. (The following is what i wrote immediately after and the best way i can explain it).

So did Jesus only have a taste of death? Did he not experience the full weight of it?
Jesus died, then rose up again; just like we [the saved] will die and rise again.
But the wages of sin are eternal!!!
If Jesus didn't die eternally, for ever, have the wages for [OUR] sins really been paid?
We know Lucifer, his angels and unrepentant sinners [and death] will be destroyed permanently in the lake of fire.
So how can Jesus temporary death be be a just punishment for the atrocities of [us] the repentant sinners, since the un-repentant sinners punishment is eternal?

No, Jesus had to forego something eternal as a sacrifice to be fair in the eye of the universe [other un-fallen worlds].
And He did!
Jesus gave up his eternal glory and was made a little lower than the angels as a human for ever.
This is the Grace God gives to those who repent.
[He] eternally sacrificed his glory to take on our humanity.
This is Jesus eternal death which was the eternal punishment for the sins of the repentant.
As a form a little lower than angels, but [now] crowned in glory.

(about here is where my inspiration started to wane)
He uses the despised to teach the honored.

1 Corinthians 1:27New International Version (NIV)
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Please feel free to raise other trains of thought on this verse as I have not read any commentaries or study notes as yet, I didn't want to taint it before I posted. This is just how it came to me.

 

[Butch5]

Hebrews 2:9King James Version (KJV)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I was reading through Hebrews in preparation for my weekly Bible study. After praying for the Holy spirit to guide me into all truth I found new insights were occurring to me. I would like your thoughts on this realization. (The following is what i wrote immediately after and the best way i can explain it).

So did Jesus only have a taste of death? Did he not experience the full weight of it?
Jesus died, then rose up again; just like we [the saved] will die and rise again.
But the wages of sin are eternal!!!
If Jesus didn't die eternally, for ever, have the wages for [OUR] sins really been paid?
We know Lucifer, his angels and unrepentant sinners [and death] will be destroyed permanently in the lake of fire.
So how can Jesus temporary death be be a just punishment for the atrocities of [us] the repentant sinners, since the un-repentant sinners punishment is eternal?

No, Jesus had to forego something eternal as a sacrifice to be fair in the eye of the universe [other un-fallen worlds].
And He did!
Jesus gave up his eternal glory and was made a little lower than the angels as a human for ever.
This is the Grace God gives to those who repent.
[He] eternally sacrificed his glory to take on our humanity.
This is Jesus eternal death which was the eternal punishment for the sins of the repentant.
As a form a little lower than angels, but [now] crowned in glory.

(about here is where my inspiration started to wane)
He uses the despised to teach the honored.
1 Corinthians 1:27New International Version (NIV)
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Please feel free to raise other trains of thought on this verse as I have not read any commentaries or study notes as yet, I didn't want to taint it before I posted. This is just how it came to me.

What you've pointed out here is one of many problems with the Penal model of the atonement. You asked about sins being paid for. I'd ask where does Scripture ever say that sins can be paid for. The Scriptures say the wages of sin is death. All sin, all die.Even believers die. They get the wages of their sin. This is one among several reasons that I reject the Penal model of the atonement as just more of the musings of men.

 

[ewq1938]

So did Jesus only have a taste of death? Did he not experience the full weight of it?

To taste of death is to experience the full weight. It doesn't have the same meaning as it might in todays English.

Jesus died, then rose up again; just like we [the saved] will die and rise again.
But the wages of sin are eternal!!!

Only if they aren't forgiven.

If Jesus didn't die eternally, for ever, have the wages for [OUR] sins really been paid?

His death paid for sins we repent of.

So how can Jesus temporary death be be a just punishment for the atrocities of [us] the repentant sinners, since the un-repentant sinners punishment is eternal?

Dying once was all he had to do.

 

[ewq1938]

What you've pointed out here is one of many problems with the Penal model of the atonement. You asked about sins being paid for. I'd ask where does Scripture ever say that sins can be paid for. The Scriptures say the wages of sin is death. All sin, all die.Even believers die. They get the wages of their sin. This is one among several reasons that I reject the Penal model of the atonement as just more of the musings of men.

You are wrong because you are confusing the two types of death. Physical death is not due to sin nor is it a punishment. I know a majority believe that but it's not scriptural. Adam was created mortal, and physical death was not his punishment. He died spiritually the day he sinned. Scripture is silent on whether he was ever forgiven or not. We are created mortal and have to die. It's natural. It's the second death which is the wages of unforgiven sin.

 

[Butch5]

You are wrong because you are confusing the two types of death. Physical death is not due to sin nor is it a punishment. I know a majority believe that but it's not scriptural. Adam was created mortal, and physical death was not his punishment. He died spiritually the day he sinned. Scripture is silent on whether he was ever forgiven or not. We are created mortal and have to die. It's natural. It's the second death which is the wages of unforgiven sin.

There is no such thing in Scripture as spiritual death, at least not pertaining to humans. The death that men die is a physical death, nothing else. Man is not a spirit thus he cannot die spiritually.

Adam did not die spiritually. A look at both the Jewish and early Christian understanding of God's words to Adam will reveal that God was referring to the prophetical day of 1000 years. David said,

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 NKJ)

When questioned about the delay in the Lord's return Peter alludes to this passage.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 NKJ)

This is the understanding of the Jews also.

Chapter 4 Book of Jubilees

And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth
year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he
30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one
thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree
of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he
31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.


The Early Christian view.

hat [moment] they were handed over to it. 2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death,in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,”2004 he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin.

 

[ewq1938]

There is no such thing in Scripture as spiritual death, at least not pertaining to humans. The death that men die is a physical death, nothing else. Man is not a spirit thus he cannot die spiritually.

It's a figurative death. That's why some living people were called "dead" because they were dead in a non-physical sense.

 

[Butch5]

It's a figurative death. That's why some living people were called "dead" because they were dead in a non-physical sense.

A figurative death isn't death. it's figure of speech. There is no non-physical death.

 

[ewq1938]

A figurative death isn't death. it's figure of speech.

A figure of speech is different than a non-physical death.

 

[Butch5]

A figure of speech is different than a non-physical death.

There's no such thing as a non physical death.

 

[ewq1938]

There's no such thing as a non physical death.

Yes there is. Adam died the day he sinned yet he was alive for hundreds of years after sinning. He died a non-physical death the day he sinned.

Non-physical death:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Physical death:

Gen_5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[brrrilliantsteve]

To taste of death is to experience the full weight. It doesn't have the same meaning as it might in todays English.

Thanks Ewq for your thoughts,

Indeed the word - taste (γεύομαι geuomai) has more than one definition including to taste, try the flavor, to take and eat, to have a perception of, or to experience death (strongs's, teknia.com).


So to try and better understand which emphasis to put on this word I have looked at the following noun to which it is referring - death (θάνατος thanatos) which being a Greek word carries with it the Greek mythology of death. ie. The death of the body which is the separation of the soul and body by which life on earth is ended implying future misery in hell. etc, etc.

A taste of 'this death' would imply there is more to come in the after world. So i would lean toward the word for taste to mean just as it says 'a taste' as opposed to a full meal taken and ingested completely to it's end. (Just to be clear I don't hold to that Greek view of death).

Dying once was all he had to do.

Of course Jesus had to die only once, that much is clear from Hebrew 9:23-28.
[I also just realized one might think I am referring to the Eucharist, I am not. Heb 9:25 "[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;". If once a year is too often, then another 51 offerings each year in the weekly Eucharist is no better.][/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]As for man it was appointed, even to Jesus, once to die..., Once raised Jesus took on his 'glorified human body', as will the redeemed, and will for ever more remain such.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Before Jesus incarnation He had to 'sacrifice' his 'heavenly body' (what ever form that was) to become for ever human. - The gravity of this sacrifice is what I am referring to.[/SIZE]

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

With such a great gulf fixed between the heavenly and humanity, Oh what a sacrifice it was for Jesus to become man for us!

 

[ewq1938]

Thanks Ewq for your thoughts,

Indeed the word - taste (γεύομαι geuomai) has more than one definition including to taste, try the flavor, to take and eat, to have a perception of, or to experience death (strongs's, teknia.com).


So to try and better understand which emphasis to put on this word I have looked at the following noun to which it is referring - death (θάνατος thanatos) which being a Greek word carries with it the Greek mythology of death. ie. The death of the body which is the separation of the soul and body by which life on earth is ended implying future misery in hell. etc, etc.

A taste of 'this death' would imply there is more to come in the after world. So i would lean toward the word for taste to mean just as it says 'a taste' as opposed to a full meal taken and ingested completely to it's end. (Just to be clear I don't hold to that Greek view of death).

It doesn't mean taste as in a sample or a small part.

Barnes:

Taste of death - That is, die. Before they die they shall see this.


Gill:

"taste the taste of death".''

That is, die:

Of course Jesus had to die only once, that much is clear from Hebrew 9:23-28.

All the saved will only die once. The second death is only for the unsaved.

 

[Butch5]

Yes there is. Adam died the day he sinned yet he was alive for hundreds of years after sinning. He died a non-physical death the day he sinned.

Non-physical death:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Physical death:

Gen_5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

The passage says nothing about a non-physical death, again you are inferring that and imposing it on the passage. There is "Nothing" in Scripture that teaches spiritual death. I already supplied an understanding of that passage that makes sense, is the historical understanding of both the Jews and early Christians and present no tension with Scripture. Really, if you would consider what is being said instead of dogmatically restating things you can't prove from Scripture we could make some progress.

 

[ATP]

Yes there is. Adam died the day he sinned yet he was alive for hundreds of years after sinning. He died a non-physical death the day he sinned.

Non-physical death:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That passage is simply stating a fact about sin (eating of the apple). A physical death will come eventually. Adam lived a long time because there was less sin in the world at that time and also because of God's grace extended.

James 1:13-15 NIV When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[ewq1938]

The passage says nothing about a non-physical death, again you are inferring that and imposing it on the passage. There is "Nothing" in Scripture that teaches spiritual death.

The scriptures I have posted prove you wrong. Really, if you Butch would consider what is being said instead of dogmatically restating things you can't prove from Scripture we could make some progress. You have no answer for how Adam died but stayed alive for hundreds of years.

 

[Butch5]

The scriptures I have posted prove you wrong. Really, if you Butch would consider what is being said instead of dogmatically restating things you can't prove from Scripture we could make some progress. You have no answer for how Adam died but stayed alive for hundreds of years.

You know, I really expected more from someone your age. And to just repeat what I said is rather childish. I've given you a perfectly good explanation of the statement to Adam in post 5 above. On the other hand you've not given me anything in Scripture explaining how someone can die a non physical death. You've not given me anything from Scripture that explains the process of any death other than physical. It's disheartening when people act like this because there is much to learn and one would think the truth would take priority over doctrine or pride.

 

[ATP]

You have no answer for how Adam died but stayed alive for hundreds of years.

Adam lived a long time because there was less sin in the world at that time and also because of God's grace extended.

Hosea 4
Hear the word of the Lord, you Israelites,
because the Lord has a charge to bring
against you who live in the land:
“There is no faithfulness, no love,
no acknowledgment of God in the land.
2There is only cursing,a lying and murder,
stealing and adultery;
they break all bounds,
and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
3Because of this the land dries up,
and all who live in it waste away;
the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea are swept away.

 

[ewq1938]

You know, I really expected more from someone your age.

I'm going to answer this post before being done with this. Firstly, you don't know my age.

And to just repeat what I said is rather childish.

No it's not childish. It means the statement was more properly directed to you than me.

I've given you a perfectly good explanation of the statement to Adam in post 5 above.

That's a weak explanation. God said he would die the day he sinned, not before one of God's figurative days passes. Context proves God was speaking about a literal day for Adam. The Infinitive absolute further strengthens that Adam definitely died the same day he sinned.

On the other hand you've not given me anything in Scripture explaining how someone can die a non physical death.

Yes I have, by sinning we can die. Have you not read:

Col_2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

You've not given me anything from Scripture that explains the process of any death other than physical.

The process of death isn't explained so that's a moot requirement. I have proven the soul lives on after physical death. This is a basic and foundational Christian concept which tells me you are in a different religion that doesn't understand what the scriptures teach on this subject.

It's disheartening when people act like this because there is much to learn and one would think the truth would take priority over doctrine or pride.

Again, another statement that is best directed to yourself.

 

[ATP]

That's a weak explanation. God said he would die the day he sinned, not before one of God's figurative days passes. Context proves God was speaking about a literal day for Adam. The Infinitive absolute further strengthens that Adam definitely died the same day he sinned.

Where does it say Adam would die that day? Nowhere.

Gen 2:17 NIV but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

 

[DPMartin]

There is no such thing in Scripture as spiritual death, at least not pertaining to humans. The death that men die is a physical death, nothing else. Man is not a spirit thus he cannot die spiritually.

Adam did not die spiritually. A look at both the Jewish and early Christian understanding of God's words to Adam will reveal that God was referring to the prophetical day of 1000 years. David said,

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 NKJ)

When questioned about the delay in the Lord's return Peter alludes to this passage.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 NKJ)

This is the understanding of the Jews also.

Chapter 4 Book of Jubilees

And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth
year [930 A.M.] thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he
30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one
thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree
of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he
31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

The Jewish view in most cases, is taken under advisement usually in cases of tradition and culture that bring insight to a text, but its not always correct either, nor is the book of jubilee considered reliable, even amongst jews and especially amongst messianic jews. Undocumented or unreliable chain of copies in think is the issue. Unlike say, the books in the old testament.

Also, where are you getting your bogus information from? If you are discussing what scripture says, then you should read before you make statements. Man is not only flesh but also spirit, as scripture verifies in the following.

Gen:6:3: And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Prov:20:27: The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Eccl:3:21: Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Zech:12:1: The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

　
Oh, yea, the scriptures are written by jews, for jews, to jews. So yes it is the Jewish view. Especially the Old Testament. Which would include the Christian view seeing that the Christians do include the OT in their collections of scripture known as the bible.

And there is a spiritual death, haven’t you heard of the second death Jesus spoke of? What Adam died of that day was the life given him, he was removed from it, and left with the life of dust to dust and ashes to ashes. If you are removed from the world you have died in respect to the world. Adam was:
Lk:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Hence his sin is a separation from God in whom he was a son of. Dead (lost) to the Life he was given and Jesus has restored.